Competition Horses and Early Deaths

alphanumeric said:
Out of curiousity, Mithras, which show horses are you thinking of and how many exactly do you think/know have been put down as soon as they've retired? I only ask as you seem to have singled them out particularly.
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I'm not going to name names but from the selection of horses you see listed in H&H each week as being in the news. So many show horses seem prone to colic. Winning one season, dead from colic a few months later. Obviously this is very tragic. Laminitis seems another frequent killer. Many quite young. Likewise some event horses ridden by some riders. Fit enough to run at 4 star level that season, not injured in competition but pts a couple of months later.

Thanks for your post FMM. I know there are some horses which are difficult to retire, but its heartening to hear from somone else who cares about such things, which I almost wonder is now quite an old fashioned approach.
 
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black_horse said:
I dont either, i think that the horse would need to be introduced slowly to the new regime if it differs vastly from what they are used to, but a horse is a horse....
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As you would see from another thread, all our show horses spend 2-3 months a year turned away and they deal with it very nicely. The horse I mentioned that did not like being turned away was kept up throughout the year because he simply did not like being turned out. It has nothing to do with introducing the horse to a new regime - after 10 years we knew the horse pretty well, knew he did not like being on holiday and no matter what we did he would NOT have been happy as a field ornament.
 
FMM said:
As you would see from another thread, all our show horses spend 2-3 months a year turned away and they deal with it very nicely. The horse I mentioned that did not like being turned away was kept up throughout the year because he simply did not like being turned out. It has nothing to do with introducing the horse to a new regime - after 10 years we knew the horse pretty well, knew he did not like being on holiday and no matter what we did he would NOT have been happy as a field ornament.
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I meant no offence by what i said, obviously you would know your horse far better then i would. I speak from experience that i have seen people with normal horses who apparently wouldnt like it....
 
black_horse said:
I meant no offence by what i said, obviously you would know your horse far better then i would. I speak from experience that i have seen people with normal horses who apparently wouldnt like it....
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I think the problem with some owners is that they do not have their own land, and it costs as much in time and money keep a field ornament as it does to keep a horse you can ride every day. it is a difficult decision then to decide if you want to have a horse to ride or simply look after your older/unrideable horse. In an ideal world, then everyone would want to keep their old horses, but in the real world, some people just cannot afford to do it. It is a very tricky situation and we are lucky to have the room (just) to retire the older horses. Many of our "retired" show hoses end up going to friends for them to hunt, hack or do riding club stuff on - they are all well schooled and mostly well adjusted!
 
FMM said:
I think the problem with some owners is that they do not have their own land, and it costs as much in time and money keep a field ornament as it does to keep a horse you can ride every day.
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It doesn't though. If you make a strict decision not to do prolonged or expensive veterinary treatment, theres grass livery, retirement livery, shoes off. I think I'd always want to give a horse that had worked hard for me and had a good relationship with me some sort of retirement, even if it were only a year or two. I just can't dispose of animals like handbags when they are of no further use to me and are too old to sell on. Couldn't live with myself. Maybe I have a different attitude because I kept my ponies at home as a child and know a lot of people who do retire their horses, and it shocks me more to hear of and meet people who don't bother.
 
Mithras said:
It doesn't though. If you make a strict decision not to do prolonged or expensive veterinary treatment, theres grass livery, retirement livery, shoes off. I think I'd always want to give a horse that had worked hard for me and had a good relationship with me some sort of retirement, even if it were only a year or two. I just can't dispose of animals like handbags when they are of no further use to me and are too old to sell on. Couldn't live with myself. Maybe I have a different attitude because I kept my ponies at home as a child and know a lot of people who do retire their horses, and it shocks me more to hear of and meet people who don't bother.
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I think it depends on where you live to be fair. When we were younger we had our horses on livery - there were no "fields" and it was either a livery yard or nothing. So yes, it DOES cost as much to keep a retiree as it does to run a ridden horse. At these yards, there was not the option to keep the horse out - they all had to have stables as well. As land was limited, the YOs could do whatever they wanted. And if you were on DIY then it was not feasible to move to a different county where there was more land. We were lucky in that by the time we got to the point of needing to retire a horse, we had our own land and we simply retired them to that. Our first pony was with us for 30 years ...
 
Mithras said:
I'm not going to name names but the selection of horses you see listed in H&H each week as being in the news. So many show horses seem prone to colic. Winning one season, dead from colic a few months later. Obviously this is very tragic. Laminitis seems another frequent killer. Likewise some event horses ridden by some riders. Fit enough to run at 4 star level that season, not injured in competition but pts a couple of months later.
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I don't often get H&H, so obviously don't keep up as well with this sort of thing. From my experience and knowledge (which is showing based, at a very high level - the sort that means you speak with other pro yards, find out where horses have gone etc), the horses that die of laminitis tend to do so at a younger age and never make it to retirement. Can't say I've ever noticed many dying of colic, but perhaps I am unobservant. The vast majority of show horses that I am aware of have gone on to do other jobs or be bred from (if mares) and certainly have not been put down whilst "on my radar" as it were. Indeed most amateur owned show horses seem to have homes for life or go from one amateur to the next.

I think what I'm aiming at is - the horses that you read about hit the news because they were, at one time or another, well known. In the case of show horses, this probably means that they were a prolific winner, winning at HOYS/RIHS etc. The percentage of horses that achieve this sort of success in their respective spheres is miniscule. For example, for a horse to go champion at HOYS, they have not only beaten the 20 odd in their class but also the best of the 20 odd in the other division (small/large RH, LW/HW cob etc - more for hunters, M&Ms, show ponies etc). So already, the horse you are reading about is 1/40 - not to mention all the horses that show on the county circuit (and below) and didn't qualify for HOYS. The same would apply to any other discipline. Therefore making a judgement about causes of death and premature deaths based on the horses that you see have died in the news is not exactly a representative sample of highly competitive horses.

Or am I missing your point?

(NB: I have only picked up on the show horses aspect of your post as this is the discipline that I am most familiar with)
 
Mithras said:
It doesn't though. If you make a strict decision not to do prolonged or expensive veterinary treatment, theres grass livery, retirement livery, shoes off. I think I'd always want to give a horse that had worked hard for me and had a good relationship with me some sort of retirement, even if it were only a year or two. I just can't dispose of animals like handbags when they are of no further use to me and are too old to sell on. Couldn't live with myself. Maybe I have a different attitude because I kept my ponies at home as a child and know a lot of people who do retire their horses, and it shocks me more to hear of and meet people who don't bother.
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It does get a bit much though! We now have 3 'crocks' that we love dearly but it is expensive to keep them even though we have our own land as they are still looked after to a good standard, food, blacksmith, dentist, stabled at night etc etc. Having a small herd of 'useless' horses means my daughter can't compete as much as she'd like to, but we still couldn't bear to get rid of any of them as each gave us so much pleasure and tried so hard for my daughter when she was competing them.
 
I cant comment on horse's at high eventing level that I do not personally know off.

But - I have a close family member that bred and competed a 3 day eventer to a very high level and when its performance levels 'flagged' at around about 16 'ish she had him PTS without a thought for even attempting to re home him as a hacker or lower grade riding club school master. Either of which he was still more than capable of. I am still slightly bewildered to this day by her rather cold blooded decision, she had ample funds and room to keep him at home still even if she couldnt have found a new loaner/owner.

Her only reasoning was that - she couldnt be 'bothered' with all the hassle and expense of keeping a 17.2 that was no longer capable of doing the job she wanted with it, and re homing was just yet another thing to take up her oh so precious time!:mad:
 
Will probably get shot down in flames but........
It's the owners choice what happens to there horse and I would much rather a horse be PTS than left to suffer, I have seen to many racehorses/eventers at sales (beeston/henley etc) looking a sorry state.
 
grumpyoldmare said:
But - I have a close family member that bred and competed a 3 day eventer to a very high level and when its performance levels 'flagged' at around about 16 'ish she had him PTS without a thought for even attempting to re home him as a hacker or lower grade riding club school master. Either of which he was still more than capable of. I am still slightly bewildered to this day by her rather cold blooded decision, she had ample funds and room to keep him at home still even if she couldnt have found a new loaner/owner.

Her only reasoning was that - she couldnt be 'bothered' with all the hassle and expense of keeping a 17.2 that was no longer capable of doing the job she wanted with it, and re homing was just yet another thing to take up her oh so precious time!:mad:
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Thats vile.

Thanks to the showing producers who have responded and assured me somewhat. I also show to county level though haven't made HOYS (yet!). I am sure there are some more commercial yards where horses have accidents that would render them unsuitable for showing and pts follows shortly. But its not just top riders who can't be bothered to retire horses still young enough to enjoy one. Yes, its there choice. I couldn't personally live with myself though. I have two on full livery and wouldn't simply pts the older one because he's getting on a bit and no longer competes so much.
 
somethingorother said:
I
But i think top eventers, surely they have the money to leave the horse sat in the field for a few years if they wanted to? What would be the point in putting a horse down when you have loads of stables, grooms, your top eventer would certainly be insured for a high amount when it comes to vets fees/ treatments. I genuinely think it is probably due to the stresses on the body, that come with competing at top level. For example, those who go around badminton numerous times, how much stress does it put on the joints, the heart, lungs, the immune system with the travelling and excitement of the crowds.

I don't fall for the 'he just wouldn't cope with retirement' though
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Go around badminton numerous times? What planet are YOU on?!!!! The top 4* horses will only have a limited number of runs at that level in their careers. There are a lot of top event horses who went on to enjoy a second career in the hunting field, dressage arena or with their grooms. WFP has given one of his Olympic prospects, Cool Mountain, the year off due to wanting to fully recover him from a tendon injury. Did you know that all his horses get an equine MOT halfway through the season? It's very unfair to make sweeping statements based on your opinion and with little facts.

I would also be interested in the accusations on here about people putting down to claim insurance money. Previous posts have shown that very often, top horses are NOT adequately insured due to the cost. Also bearing in mind how closely insurance companies look at claims, I would very much doubt anyone could put a healthy horse down without a murmur from the insurance...
 
Luci07 said:
Go around badminton numerous times? What planet are YOU on?!!!! The top 4* horses will only have a limited number of runs at that level in their careers. There are a lot of top event horses who went on to enjoy a second career in the hunting field, dressage arena or with their grooms. WFP has given one of his Olympic prospects, Cool Mountain, the year off due to wanting to fully recover him from a tendon injury. Did you know that all his horses get an equine MOT halfway through the season? It's very unfair to make sweeping statements based on your opinion and with little facts.

I would also be interested in the accusations on here about people putting down to claim insurance money. Previous posts have shown that very often, top horses are NOT adequately insured due to the cost. Also bearing in mind how closely insurance companies look at claims, I would very much doubt anyone could put a healthy horse down without a murmur from the insurance...
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your right re insurance co's

they will not pay out a penny if they think for one min that the horse can live in the field for the rest of its life
a friend of mine had a horse who broke his shoulder and also had some form of arthritis ,i can't remember what but he was in a lot of pain with both the injury and the other conditions he had

owner & vet decided it was time to call it a day ,insurance co wouldn't let them pts (said they wouldn't pay out) they did pts anyway as the horses quality of life came first and although he could have limped about the field it just wouldn't have been fair on him

they did eventually get the insurance money but it was a long drawn out fight for it with the vet having to get heavily involved


insurance co's will not pay out for loss of horse unless there was a very good reason to pts
they would however get loss of use if the horse could no longer do the job but they wouldn't have to pts
 
angelish said:
your right re insurance co's

they will not pay out a penny if they think for one min that the horse can live in the field for the rest of its life

insurance co's will not pay out for loss of horse unless there was a very good reason to pts
they would however get loss of use if the horse could no longer do the job but they wouldn't have to pts
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LOU is about 80% of a horse's value, so they will pay out rather a lot more than a penny. The horse wouldn't be PTS to get an insurance payout, it would be pts to avoid paying for its ongoing care once it couldn't do its job, and to make way for the replacement which could be bought with the LOU payout.
 
I doubt its about insurance in most of these cases, more likely can't be bothered to keep a horse retired or look for an alternative career.

As for lower down the ranks, I'd rather retire an old friend than sacrifice them a the possibility of a few rosettes on a new horse.
 
I am in the "don't judge" camp and some of what has been posted is a bit fact free. The reason you see so many horse deaths due to colic and laminitis is that those are the number 1 & number 2 causes of death in horses. Also, until fairly recently, horses rarely lived beyond their teens; now they can live much longer, but the ageing process sets in by early to mid-teens. Another point, I think selling a horse in its mid-teens is not a great idea - it has a short life left, and some owners might prefer pts to selling for a knock-down price and not knowing what kind of life or care their horse was getting into its old age.
Having gone through myself the nightmare of deciding to get my horse operated on for colic, which was unsuccessful, I can fully sympathise with an owner who decides to pts rather than operate. It is terribly expensive, traumatic for the horse, and I think its actual success rates are lower that what you are told at the time.
Finally, I read H & H every week and I do not notice a particular trend in retired competition horses being put down. There is always news of horse's deaths, but I am always amazed at how many lived well into their 20s. I have never known anyone pts a healthy horse after their job was done - maybe I am an exception.
 
It's the owners choice what happens to there horse and I would much rather a horse be PTS than left to suffer, I have seen to many racehorses/eventers at sales (beeston/henley etc) looking a sorry state.

Totally agree with this, there is a fate worse than death, horse doesn't know about it or care
 
And remember it is only the top compitition horses we hear about being PTs they arenot alone in their earl deaths but they are the only ones we get to hear about!
 
Mithras said:
Thats vile.

Thanks to the showing producers who have responded and assured me somewhat. I also show to county level though haven't made HOYS (yet!). I am sure there are some more commercial yards where horses have accidents that would render them unsuitable for showing and pts follows shortly. But its not just top riders who can't be bothered to retire horses still young enough to enjoy one. Yes, its there choice. I couldn't personally live with myself though. I have two on full livery and wouldn't simply pts the older one because he's getting on a bit and no longer competes so much.
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Exactly, you have two horses that you keep on full livery. So its pretty easy for you to say that you'd give one of them a retirement - because you'd still have the other to ride and compete.

And I imagine that in worse case scenario and both had to be retired, there'd be enough slush fund to keep both of those on cheap retirement livery and buy another competition horse.

Its a very different situation to someone who can only afford ONE horse on DIY livery, and for whom keeping that horse in retirement would mean no riding or competing for years. And its very easy to judge if you're not in that situation.

I do think its a bit cold to have a horse PTS the minute it can no longer be competitive - particularly if you have the land, or money to keep it in retirement - or without trying to find a lower level hacking/hunting home if its capable of it. But the fact remains that to a horse it makes no difference if it is treated humanely.

And if you eat meat, then you can't really have a problem with the ethics of a healthy animal being killed.
 
My horse was PTS once he could no longer be ridden. Until he was PTS, he'd been a healthy and competitive RC horse- we'd done a bit of everything, and done it pretty well (barring dressage). He was worth his weight in gold, and we owed him massively- every penny we ever spent on keeping him happy was worth it ten times over.

He genuinely didn't do retirement. People had tried. His previous owner had tried so hard- but 2 years in he was thin, grumpy and looked fed up. He was bought in and started to be hacked and he was a different horse so she found us and we had him for a further 5 years. One day, he was lame. 6 weeks later, he was PTS. In those 6 weeks he'd gone from being a happy, cheeky old man with a serious attention seeking streak to looking.. well, sad. He hated not being the most important horse. We tried. God, we tried so hard for him. But he didn't like it so we said goodbye.

To most people this would have been shocking. He was, on the surface, a fabulous companion (especially a travelling companion, being the safest and most reliable horse ever on a lorry or trailer) who looked amazing for his age. Genuinely looked like he was about 12, not his actual age. But we had him PTS. Shocking, eh?

Also, there are far worse fates than leading a happy life competing then being PTS. A everyone is so quick to say on here, if it's done properly then it is painless and quick and not-scary. How can that be bad?
 
Flame_ said:
LOU is about 80% of a horse's value, so they will pay out rather a lot more than a penny. The horse wouldn't be PTS to get an insurance payout, it would be pts to avoid paying for its ongoing care once it couldn't do its job, and to make way for the replacement which could be bought with the LOU payout.
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I was answering the post i had quoted by luci07 who said "people putting down to claim insurance money" i am well aware that LOU is about 80% of the horses value thanks :)
 
Lolo said:
My horse was PTS once he could no longer be ridden. Until he was PTS, he'd been a healthy and competitive RC horse- we'd done a bit of everything, and done it pretty well (barring dressage). He was worth his weight in gold, and we owed him massively- every penny we ever spent on keeping him happy was worth it ten times over.

He genuinely didn't do retirement. People had tried. His previous owner had tried so hard- but 2 years in he was thin, grumpy and looked fed up. He was bought in and started to be hacked and he was a different horse so she found us and we had him for a further 5 years. One day, he was lame. 6 weeks later, he was PTS. In those 6 weeks he'd gone from being a happy, cheeky old man with a serious attention seeking streak to looking.. well, sad. He hated not being the most important horse. We tried. God, we tried so hard for him. But he didn't like it so we said goodbye.

To most people this would have been shocking. He was, on the surface, a fabulous companion (especially a travelling companion, being the safest and most reliable horse ever on a lorry or trailer) who looked amazing for his age. Genuinely looked like he was about 12, not his actual age. But we had him PTS. Shocking, eh?

Also, there are far worse fates than leading a happy life competing then being PTS. A everyone is so quick to say on here, if it's done properly then it is painless and quick and not-scary. How can that be bad?
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You have to ask how much of your horse looking sad was down to pain (if he was lame), in which case PTS was for humane reasons, and how much was your own feelings and sadness. IMO 6 weeks is not long enough for a horse to acclimatise to a new way of life. It can take 6 months or more, as in my mare's case. But to me she remains 'the most important horse' and still gets groomed, trimmed and pampered just as she did before retirement.

I still think that ANY horse can adapt to retirement. It's not to say that they do not prefer to be more active, though many actually enjoy the rest. However, if retirement is to be thrown in a muddy field and generally forgotten about, then that's different.
 
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