Competition lease what’s the going rate ?

[Mary3050]

Hi guys,
Need some advice someone we know is wanting to have one of my horse on competition lease. I have never really come across it before like the fine details . Such as who pays what , insurance, contract and also what figure would you expect for the year ?

The horse in question is 15’2 6 years old professional produced. He has great flat work, an amazing jump technique pops a course of 1m/1’05 at home has jumped 1m20 . Hacks and been cross country training a lot. Loose schools up to 1m 40 . Very easy boy like a big dog. He’s a little green at shows due to the year we have had with Covid . But he’s been to dressage, show jumping and arena eventing all unaffiliated . Still goes clear at 95 cm SJ . 85cm xc . Scores around 76% on average . He’s incredibly talented.

So how much would you expect for a competition lease for the year ? Also can I put in contract must have boots on when jumping ?
Thanks guys , also any experience of competition lease would be great !

 

[be positive]

Leasing is fairly unusual in the Uk but I do know people who leased a comp pony, they paid 10% of his value, estimated at £10k, per year bought his tack/ rugs etc at cost, which was to be returned when he went back, they paid all expenses inc full insurance cover which was also for LOU and the contract was very specific on what could and could not be done, they did relax after the first year or so and the lease lasted 4-5 years in the end with him improving his record and going up in value, not that he was ever sold.

I cannot remember other details but it was a very long and well thought out contract set up by a solicitor, I was asked to take a look before they signed to ensure they had not overlooked any of the small print regarding what they could actually do with him.

 

[ihatework]

Leasing is most generally done on more proven competition horses. The leaser essentially rents the horse and then pays for everything on top too.

What they pay for the rental part is usually based on the horses market value, and has traditionally been 10%pa but for a really established schoolmaster (think jr/yr teams material) I have heard of 20+%.

The age and experience of yours wouldn’t be a common lease scenario. I’d imagine 1-1.5k/pa max.

Id strongly consider a LOU policy and a very strict contract, it’s not like a loan where you can go and just pick them up for little reason. The horse sounds like it’s at that point where it’s just about to go out and prove itself, the wrong rider could devalue/ruin the horse in a matter of weeks

 

[eggs]

Whilst your horse sounds lovely he really isn't your usual type of competition lease as he isn't proven at the higher levels or by the sounds of it does not have an affiliated record so IMO that would reduce the amount you would expect as a lease cost.

You would definitely want a good contract and it is up to you what terms you put in just as it is up to the other party to not agree to the terms thus voiding the deal. Usually the person leasing the horse would pay all costs.

 

[Mary3050]

Leasing is fairly unusual in the Uk but I do know people who leased a comp pony, they paid 10% of his value, estimated at £10k, per year bought his tack/ rugs etc at cost, which was to be returned when he went back, they paid all expenses inc full insurance cover which was also for LOU and the contract was very specific on what could and could not be done, they did relax after the first year or so and the lease lasted 4-5 years in the end with him improving his record and going up in value, not that he was ever sold.

I cannot remember other details but it was a very long and well thought out contract set up by a solicitor, I was asked to take a look before they signed to ensure they had not overlooked any of the small print regarding what they could actually do with him.

Thanks you that’s great thanks yes I would be getting legal advice first as i wouldn’t want him travelling , jumping with out boots, hunting is a big no , turned out with anything else, can I put physio must be done min of every 6 months, vaccinations upto date, wormers etc ? I will have everything done before he goes and will send him with all tack / travel stuff / rugs / boots etc .
Also do you know if there was anything about owner being about being able to visit . As we have discussed it before and they said I am welcome to come ride/ visit any time.

 

[Mary3050]

Leasing is most generally done on more proven competition horses. The leaser essentially rents the horse and then pays for everything on top too.

What they pay for the rental part is usually based on the horses market value, and has traditionally been 10%pa but for a really established schoolmaster (think jr/yr teams material) I have heard of 20+%.

The age and experience of yours wouldn’t be a common lease scenario. I’d imagine 1-1.5k/pa max.

Id strongly consider a LOU policy and a very strict contract, it’s not like a loan where you can go and just pick them up for little reason. The horse sounds like it’s at that point where it’s just about to go out and prove itself, the wrong rider could devalue/ruin the horse in a matter of weeks

Thanks I thought that too. They have previously asked to buy him and offered a good amount of money . However for personal reasons I can not part with him. They have still be Been looking but have found anything they’ve like enough. Believe me budget is not the issues. Do you know if it would be unusual to give them part of the money back as a “bond” type of think as I would rather do that. So like say we agreed £1000 for the year would it be odd to say £300 a deposit and return it to them in the end. That’s the thing he’s got potential to be a YR / Jr event horse . He ridden by a 13 year old sometimes at home and goes very well for her .

We have discussed it before and they have said the mum who is a very experienced SJ/eventer will ride him at some shows for a bit . As although he would be fine with the daughter on who’s 16 . We just said that we thought it was best for him. Then the mum would school him 2 a week then the daughter the rest of the time. Daughter is very competent handles much bigger and challenging rides.

That’s part of my reason for considering the lease because I just feel the current jockey is holding him back from reaching his full potential. Initially this was great because I didn’t want him rushed . But I feel like there a fine balance between not being rushed and being held back. Currently the jockey seems to busy with other horse who are only temporary they are also short staffed. I just feel recently the performance is slipping due to the riders lack of time.
Seems to being lunging more than riding, to short schooling sessions for example he take a bit of warming up like most horses but it just seems rushed . I feel like a problems coming up now say something minor like being strong up to jumps . Instead of taking him through some lateral movement and putting up small more complexed jumps so he has to wait, listen and think. It seems to be not work on the stuff go for a stronger bit and martingale . Then make and excuses about it’s because he’s board not going out with lockdown. From where I am stood they need to spend more time on flat and excises before they even go out ! Thanks for your help it’s a big decision for me

 

[Mary3050]

Whilst your horse sounds lovely he really isn't your usual type of competition lease as he isn't proven at the higher levels or by the sounds of it does not have an affiliated record so IMO that would reduce the amount you would expect as a lease cost.

You would definitely want a good contract and it is up to you what terms you put in just as it is up to the other party to not agree to the terms thus voiding the deal. Usually the person leasing the horse would pay all costs.

Thanks you as I have just replied to someone else also about this . I think it’s come about as they wanted to purchase him but I have said I will not sell him for personal reasons . They have looked but haven’t found anything they like despite having a massive budget. They then said would I consider leasing him. I am only considering it due to under performance of current jockey over the last few months. I was thinking of saying £1000 and then giving £300 back at the end of lease. But if he goes I have been considering purchasing a new saddle for Him. So may use the money for the lease into a having a saddle made but let the rider have some choice over what they want for them both. It’s a big discussion for me but I am starting to wonder if this maybe be a better solution with the issues I am having with the pro . Thanks for your help

 

[ihatework]

I think if it’s an experienced home that have a proven track record and system/support in place then they are taking as much risk, if not more than you - assuming they are good they will build the horses CV and value. It is possibly a very good ‘deal’

I don’t understand why you are paying pro production and not getting what you want from it!

I’ve got a very nice homebred that I’ll be trying to find a similar situation for in the next 12-24 months.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Is he currently on loan then? Or are you paying to have him ridden but it is being done in a way you don't like? I'd go woth the lease option. It sounds like a good match and if you already have the family lined up you can put whatever you like in the contract. But you will have less control over his management if he is leased not loaned or professionally produced I imagine?

 

[Mary3050]

I think if it’s an experienced home that have a proven track record and system/support in place then they are taking as much risk, if not more than you - assuming they are good they will build the horses CV and value. It is possibly a very good ‘deal’

I don’t understand why you are paying pro production and not getting what you want from it!

I’ve got a very nice homebred that I’ll be trying to find a similar situation for in the next 12-24 months.

Yer they are and I kind of have known them a while. There good people but equally they know I would support them in any way they need. Like I have said i am happy to help if they ever need it . As an extra pair of hands at shows, take them in my box if they need for any reason and horse can come home to my house if there away or he needs any down time .

I have been having issues with the pro for a while with issues around the horses progression, doing the opposite of what asked, professionalism and recently with them over stretching themselves. I am still considering all my options. So thanks for your help and good luck with yours

 

[Mary3050]

Is he currently on loan then? Or are you paying to have him ridden but it is being done in a way you don't like? I'd go woth the lease option. It sounds like a good match and if you already have the family lined up you can put whatever you like in the contract. But you will have less control over his management if he is leased not loaned or professionally produced I imagine?

No I currently pay a good amount of money to have him schooled and competed by a “pro” all year round. I just no longer feel I am getting what was set out , things are slipping such as the other day I was driving past thought I would drop had already spoke to jockey who said they were lunging that day. Walks in to find horse is being jumped with no boots on in a stronger bit it that I have said i am happy with. To be given loads of excuses.

Then when I say points we already agreed on stuff like boots on for jumping it’s not the first time this has happened I am unreasonable! I just think with money I am spending it’s a bit off

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I sent my horse to a pro who ignored all my requests too! Big mistake. I'd end that relationship for sure. Good luck with the next step.

 

[Mary3050]

I sent my horse to a pro who ignored all my requests too! Big mistake. I'd end that relationship for sure. Good luck with the next step.

Thanks I originally thought it was just being short handed and things would go back to normal think now there over stretched.

Then I am also concerned about there feeling with the horse as you may call it. Whilst it’s great they love the horse like there own . I am starting to feel ignored as the owner they don’t want to do my lesson on him any longer says it’s due to time or do as I ask. But what’s a I am find a bit weird now is people who come or we see at shows think he’s the “pro” horse. They don’t correct this or say this is his owner. Like recently we saw a client of there’s at a show I was talking to them and they said it’s nice of you to come help said “pro” with there horse. He was the only horse we took. I said oh yer I like to support them as although he’s on competition livery I still like to be involved with him . They where shocked and said they though the “pro” owned him. Then they asked if I had recently brought him as they had asked to purchase him last year and get first refusal. Which I had never been told . I explained that I had owned him as a youngster direct from breeder who’s a good friend and that he not for sale due to personal reasons. Also said pro tags every Tom dick and Harry in social media post but not me as the owner when putting results on or photos. There also lots of This “my golden boy” etc all over social media. They tag other owners in posts but not me?

They have asked to purchase the horse a few times but I have declined and said they would have first refusal if I ever did . I am also getting sick of people on the yard saying that I should just have done and sell them the horse as he’s basically there’s any way. Which whilst they have worked with the horse for a number of years and has brought the horse on. They are paid a lot to do so. There’s also all these little white lies they tell that just get on my nerves. The make out the horse had done nothing like straight from the field when they started working with him. Which tbh is a load of crap. I spent a 18 months before this showing him in hand, long reining, lunging him, loose jump him. I was the first to sit on him , walk and trot him. I then gave him 3 months off and then brought him back into work 2 months same again lunge, long rein , walk and trot . Before taking him to the “pro” at which point he was still a baby scared of the odd thing hose pipes , very green etc they cantered him taught him to jump. But hardly done everything from the start .

I just don’t feel it’s right or professional.

 

[emilylou]

From your last post I'd get him from the pro's yard and sort a robust arrangement with the new people, whether it is loan or lease, with detailed terms and conditions. Sounds like you will get much more of what you are looking for with them than the 'pro' (who doesn't sound very professional to me!)

 

[EASTIE17]

Apologies, not really answering the OPs question, more piggybacking on it to ask my own. For what its worth my understanding is, as others have said - 10 to 20% with lessee paying all expenses. Although I have seen random numbers like 6K per year on a horse with a market value of 20K
Anyone know any good sources to lease a competition event pony? My daughter events to a high pony level but our main pony has unfortunately been diagnosed with a tendon injury. She would intend to be competing at Pony Novice, 1*, 2* including HP as she has this year, so looking for a pony that is very close to that with clear potential to get there quickly, or has been there done that.
I'm based in Ireland and have chased down most of the available leads here (there aren't many, leasing is not that common here and there is a very small pool of ponies genuinely at that level).
Appreciate any potential leads anyone might be able to provide, PM me if better. Thanks all

 

[Mary3050]

From your last post I'd get him from the pro's yard and sort a robust arrangement with the new people, whether it is loan or lease, with detailed terms and conditions. Sounds like you will get much more of what you are looking for with them than the 'pro' (who doesn't sound very professional to me!)

I take it that you think it’s a little bit weird to be acting like that with your clients horse then. I originally put it down to just being because she cares about the horse and spends a lot of time with him. I have obviously seen riding school kids refer to horse they ride a lot as my whatever. You know and people who take horse on loan etc. But it’s a bit odd . Thanks

 

[be positive]

I take it that you think it’s a little bit weird to be acting like that with your clients horse then. I originally put it down to just being because she cares about the horse and spends a lot of time with him. I have obviously seen riding school kids refer to horse they ride a lot as my whatever. You know and people who take horse on loan etc. But it’s a bit odd . Thanks

I think it odd, as a pro she should be using him to show how professional she is and to encourage other owners to use her by giving the owner a mention at any opportunity, I have ridden for clients and would always tell people whose horse it was, it is them who are paying the bills and enabling the rider to go out competing, they deserve as much credit as the rider if the horse is doing well.

From the lease point of view it sounds like a reasonable option, certainly better than you are getting now, I would expect to be able to visit at any reasonable time but I am not sure riding the horse is fair unless you are happy to just hack or school while they are there as it may impact on his progress if you want to remain too involved with the riding.

 

[Red-1]

I'm afraid that I would have that horse away from the 'pro' yard asap, based on what you have written.

The horse means a lot to you, you want to be involved. It should feel like a big, shared adventure.

I sold my mare this summer, she went to a friend who is a pro. She was schooled, all my requests were complied with, I was welcome to visit, the truth was told, the equipment I wanted was used, and she did several affiliated shows, despite lockdown.

Good service is out there!

As far as the other people go, would that arrangement feel like a huge, shared adventure? Maybe sit down with them and explain what you would like? An arrangement would be a bargain for both side, I think. They have no £ risk for a new rider to that level. You have free training, be able to be included, cheer the pair on. It sounds like mother can increase experience.

It sounds like £ is not the driver here, so I would sit down with them and thrash out what YOU would really like about the arrangement. Yes, £1,000 a year sounds very reasonable, but maybe a loan or even a share would actually give you access to share the adventure, if they have suitable premises where you would be regularly welcomed?

So, my advice is to forget convention. Have the child round to have a sit on the horse. See if it brims you with happiness and pride. Find out what they want. Forge an agreement based on what makes you happy rather than what others do.

 

[ycbm]

Great post Red. A like isn't enough for that one.

 

[Red-1]

It actually made me quite cross!

 

[little_critter]

May I ask why you are looking at a lease rather than a loan?
Someone above said that with a lease you can’t end the agreement quite as easily, so if you are concerned about protecting yourself / your horse a loan might be more suitable?

 

[Mary3050]

I think it odd, as a pro she should be using him to show how professional she is and to encourage other owners to use her by giving the owner a mention at any opportunity, I have ridden for clients and would always tell people whose horse it was, it is them who are paying the bills and enabling the rider to go out competing, they deserve as much credit as the rider if the horse is doing well.

From the lease point of view it sounds like a reasonable option, certainly better than you are getting now, I would expect to be able to visit at any reasonable time but I am not sure riding the horse is fair unless you are happy to just hack or school while they are there as it may impact on his progress if you want to remain too involved with the riding.

Thank you that’s what I thought . I have also ridden for clients back a about 5 years ago and although social media wasn’t as big they always got tagged and thanked. Yer it was there suggestion that I can come ride I would be doing it when there about only and it wouldn’t be very often once a month if that I think .

 

[Red-1]

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I read this and am so sad. How awful that you are having a confidence crisis about simply allowing someone to ride your own horse. I hope you take action, and then look back at this post in a few months' time, and realise how beaten down you have become by these people.

If you can take the horse home, do it. If you say where you are, I am sure people on here will be able to recommend somewhere where you will be treated with respect. I would be bedding down and having him away today.

I wish you well.

 

[Red-1]

[Content removed]

I can certainly recommend 2 yards in may area, which maybe aren't your area. One is SJ based, one is showing based. For a competition livery, I would expect to pay around £200 a week. This would include everything other than vets/shoeing/extra tack, transport/entry fees/ insurance. The horse would have daily turnout and be worked by a professional most days. If you wanted to ride, the professional would come out to the arena with you, to help or simply chat or put jumps up and cheer you on. Heck, I didn't know the area and asked where I could hack last year, when I was too stressed/busy with mum's illness to have mine at home, and they did no more than tack one up to come with me and show me. This year, when I needed to sell, they helped with the advert, fielded phone calls, undertook viewings, did negotiations.

It is a friend, but I have recommended them to a bunch of people for successful breaking (x2), for general livery (that one went on to successful county level showing), for re-breaking, for selling... They give the same high service to everyone. If mine hadn't sold immediately, she would have gone XC schooling and done a BE event at the end of this season, even though the rider is a SJer and has never evented (she has hunted and can jump just about anything!). Last year, I was encouraged to take her home again for a dressage competition our two, to go to camp, to go for some training at another yard. I was cheered on all the way.

The showing yard, an friend has a horse there. She had personal injuries and doesn't ride much now, but was fully part of the training and showing process. I had many photos of 4.30am starts for Royal International etc. It was exciting. The cob was fresh backed when she bought it, the whole thing has been a delightful adventure. When she did want to ride, the pro would ride first and when her injury was bad, the pro would even lead her round the arena as her legs wouldn't work, just so she was riding her own horse. They would ask permission for visitors to hack the horse, and tag with photos of the adventure so she could be part of it. Photos of early mornings, snoozy horses, all part of the adventure.

Both pros compete to a high level (Grand Prix SJ and top showing) yet have smaller yards with the human touch. I guess the one thing is that neither has to advertise much. The top business of the day is their own competition, the liveries are a side business, but treated as family. Few enough liveries to not be bitchy yards, in fact anyone bitchy isn't invited to stay for long.

This is why I say to let people know the area you are in, as they may have some recommendations.

But then, if this other arrangement may work out, if you are satisfied that the yard is satisfactory, and have your own place as a fall back, I would consider doing a week's trial for them, where you visit daily to assess the riding etc. Xmas holidays are coming up, so even a month where the mother intially rides then the girl takes over is more time to make sure that you are happy that the arrangement would work.

There is no guarantee of your horse's safety wherever it is, pro yard or other yard, but you would be kicking yourself if you found that your horse was injured jumping, when you already know that she is disregarding your requests for boots.

I am still angry on your behalf.

 

[Gingerwitch]

[Content removed]

Now this definitely upsets me. It's your horse you can do what the hell you like, tell them your having a photo shoot at home for your Christmas card if need be. But I strongly suggest you put both your nrdfies in the box take em home and then go back and get all your stuff. I am in the mids if you need me to hold the snow shovel but get out if this moonie cult NOW. I was at a yard who took over mine and I used to feel physically sick, the relief when I closed that ramp and I could only go down the road as needed to get one off and onto s friends box as we were over weight with 3 big horses on s 7.5 tonner but it was worth it to get them off that yard. I was naughty and did it when they were off the yard.

 

[honetpot]

I know money is perhaps not a problem for you, and the pro knows you do not want to sell, but I would tell a fib, and say you're rethinking your finances and as a precaution cutting back, and are taking the horse home/somewhere else, Christmas, until you decide what to do.
Talk about biting the hand that feeds you, its sounds like you have provided a steady income, and they are now taking your custom for granted. I haven't been at livery for a while, but I always use the stable at home as the get out of jail card if there are any problems, and take them home on a regular basis, even if I still pay for the livery space.

I used to loan out our ponies, they were good solid PC schoolmasters, it always used to amuse me when the loaner used to say they had taught them xyz, when I had the pictures to prove they had been doing it for many years, but then I was not paying them for the privilege of riding my horse.

 

[MissTyc]

OP, I feel sorry for your situation, and I think the "lease" option is almost a red herring here. You need to get into a situation where you are enjoying being a part of the horse's journey. Does the level of competition really matter? Bringing him on with a talented young rider might turn out to be so much more rewarding (and cheaper too!) than the pro option that is clearly making you unhappy and making you feel unwanted or unneeded in the horse's life. I hope you all fall on your feet together!

 

[Mary3050]

I can certainly recommend 2 yards in may area, which maybe aren't your area. One is SJ based, one is showing based. For a competition livery, I would expect to pay around £200 a week. This would include everything other than vets/shoeing/extra tack, transport/entry fees/ insurance. The horse would have daily turnout and be worked by a professional most days. If you wanted to ride, the professional would come out to the arena with you, to help or simply chat or put jumps up and cheer you on. Heck, I didn't know the area and asked where I could hack last year, when I was too stressed/busy with mum's illness to have mine at home, and they did no more than tack one up to come with me and show me. This year, when I needed to sell, they helped with the advert, fielded phone calls, undertook viewings, did negotiations.

It is a friend, but I have recommended them to a bunch of people for successful breaking (x2), for general livery (that one went on to successful county level showing), for re-breaking, for selling... They give the same high service to everyone. If mine hadn't sold immediately, she would have gone XC schooling and done a BE event at the end of this season, even though the rider is a SJer and has never evented (she has hunted and can jump just about anything!). Last year, I was encouraged to take her home again for a dressage competition our two, to go to camp, to go for some training at another yard. I was cheered on all the way.

The showing yard, an friend has a horse there. She had personal injuries and doesn't ride much now, but was fully part of the training and showing process. I had many photos of 4.30am starts for Royal International etc. It was exciting. The cob was fresh backed when she bought it, the whole thing has been a delightful adventure. When she did want to ride, the pro would ride first and when her injury was bad, the pro would even lead her round the arena as her legs wouldn't work, just so she was riding her own horse. They would ask permission for visitors to hack the horse, and tag with photos of the adventure so she could be part of it. Photos of early mornings, snoozy horses, all part of the adventure.

Both pros compete to a high level (Grand Prix SJ and top showing) yet have smaller yards with the human touch. I guess the one thing is that neither has to advertise much. The top business of the day is their own competition, the liveries are a side business, but treated as family. Few enough liveries to not be bitchy yards, in fact anyone bitchy isn't invited to stay for long.

This is why I say to let people know the area you are in, as they may have some recommendations.

But then, if this other arrangement may work out, if you are satisfied that the yard is satisfactory, and have your own place as a fall back, I would consider doing a week's trial for them, where you visit daily to assess the riding etc. Xmas holidays are coming up, so even a month where the mother intially rides then the girl takes over is more time to make sure that you are happy that the arrangement would work.

There is no guarantee of your horse's safety wherever it is, pro yard or other yard, but you would be kicking yourself if you found that your horse was injured jumping, when you already know that she is disregarding your requests for boots.

I am still angry on your behalf.

Thanks I am east mids based . Yes exactly . I have a few options to consider before I make any choices xx

 

[Mary3050]

Haha yes good idea. Got a few options to explore before I make any choices. Haha thanks yer thanks . I am
Gonna consider my Options . I don’t blame you !

Now this definitely upsets me. It's your horse you can do what the hell you like, tell them your having a photo shoot at home for your Christmas card if need be. But I strongly suggest you put both your nrdfies in the box take em home and then go back and get all your stuff. I am in the mids if you need me to hold the snow shovel but get out if this moonie cult NOW. I was at a yard who took over mine and I used to feel physically sick, the relief when I closed that ramp and I could only go down the road as needed to get one off and onto s friends box as we were over weight with 3 big horses on s 7.5 tonner but it was worth it to get them off that yard. I was naughty and did it when they were off the yard.

 

[Mary3050]

I know money is perhaps not a problem for you, and the pro knows you do not want to sell, but I would tell a fib, and say you're rethinking your finances and as a precaution cutting back, and are taking the horse home/somewhere else, Christmas, until you decide what to do.
Talk about biting the hand that feeds you, its sounds like you have provided a steady income, and they are now taking your custom for granted. I haven't been at livery for a while, but I always use the stable at home as the get out of jail card if there are any problems, and take them home on a regular basis, even if I still pay for the livery space.

I used to loan out our ponies, they were good solid PC schoolmasters, it always used to amuse me when the loaner used to say they had taught them xyz, when I had the pictures to prove they had been doing it for many years, but then I was not paying them for the privilege of riding my horse.

I have tried this by saying my who part owns the horse is thinking of pulling out because I don’t ride enough meaning he would have to on lease . They don’t seem to care . Yer I know its odd isn’t it !