Competitive spark and living out.

[Ceifer]

No ,I am not sad about how CH keeps his horses I am sad when I see tethered horses at the side of the road and stories dumped foals but no how Carl keeps his horses does not make me sad .
Peanuts was a great horse for Carl took him to the olympics and helped Carl buy his own yard when Carl sold him and then when retired Carl took him back and oversaw his care till the end .

Lucky competition horse .

I think that’s comparing two different ends of the spectrum. Of course unfortunately there is a lot of abuse that goes on with as you say, tethering, abandonment abuse cases.
But we shouldn’t have to use these examples to justify a way of keeping horses that isn’t ideal for their mental wellbeing either.

 

[meleeka]

Two wrongs definitely don’t make a right.

Is a horse stabled 23/7 any more content than one on a tether for the same amount of time? Apart from the obvious provision of shelter, I can’t see much difference.

 

[Chippers1]

I wouldn't leave Buzz in a night before a comp, he can get quite stressy in a stable/small sand pen that we have - when I had to keep him in as he had a pulse he'd hardly eaten all night and he had a friend in next door to him. Add in the slight stress of travelling and I think it would be to unfair on him just for a comp.
He lives out 24/7 in a herd and can perform fine on the day. Maybe he would have a bit more 'buzz' about him (pun intended ;-)) if I left him in but I want the best for him more than placings. He's much happier and relaxed in his little gang, he's often lying down when I go down. There's always a risk of injury in a herd situation but i'll take it for him to be happy.
I feel sorry for the horses mentioned up thread that don't get any turnout

 

[Goldenstar]

I think that’s comparing two different ends of the spectrum. Of course unfortunately there is a lot of abuse that goes on with as you say, tethering, abandonment abuse cases.
But we shouldn’t have to use these examples to justify a way of keeping horses that isn’t ideal for their mental wellbeing either.

Where did I justify anything I was asked if how Carl kept his horses made me sad I said no and gave an example of what made me sad .

Is a horse stabled 23/7 any more content than one on a tether for the same amount of time? Apart from the obvious provision of shelter, I can’t see much difference.[/QUOTE]

We are not in the example quoted thinking about a horse stabled 24/7 we are thinking about a horse in hard work getting turnout (or hand grazing if it’s on the run up to a championship) going on a walker and getting hacked out .
If you think that’s the same as horses who are tethered for days on end with Little f access to water no shelter from flys or rain and wind then I can’t explain it to you .

 

[J&S]

I don't think any thing compares to what my farrier from the NF told me years ago. He used to breed and drive hackneys so was a bit of an afficianado regarding this type of horse/pony. He told me that the "show" hackneys were kept in dark stables and young lads were instructed to slam footballs against the doors to "keep them on their toes"! At the actual shows, and I am talking here about BIG indoor evening type events, they were held at the edge of the ring with blindfolds on so that when they were taken in the ring with these off they were just absolutely mad with fear and anxiety. This was to show off their paces. I thought Arab in hand showing was bad but what they did with these poor hackneys is sheer cruelty. I hasten to add that his own hackneys had a lovely life and won many prizes at the New Forest show with out having to under go any of the above.
On another note, I had a friend who owned a mare, TB X type, who simply hated being out in the field! Half an hour was her limit or she would be at the gate pacing and weaving wanting to come back in.

 

[hattie2525]

I think what the original post was meaning, was keeping top dressage horses who may not have enough natural sparkle or power for the Grand Prix tests in for long periods of time to force them into being so off their heads with pent up energy they 'perform better'. Keeping a riding club show jumper in over night so it hasn't got a grass belly is one thing. As is appreciating that it isn't always the best thing for a 5* eventer to be mooching round a field all day. Different horses need managing differently, I was a competition groom for 10 years and i'm pretty realistic about life, but I am in no denial that a lot horses are kept in for what I think is an unfair amount of time so they are forced have enough 'go' to do their job.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I know some showing people keep there horses stabled before a show especially the in hand ones, they will barely come out for a good few weeks before so they are basically wild when they get to the show, when I had a producer show mine for me they told me to stable him, I wasn't prepared to do it I just don't think it's fair on them, and I don't want them in that heightened state intentionally.

I tend to do ridden showing with mine now and they mainly live out all year and there fine they have plenty of energy.

 

[milliepops]

I really do think there's a difference between shutting a horse up for months on end, and managing them in a way that they can live a pretty normal life for a working horse (i.e. a reasonable mix of TO and stabling), and channel their energy into the discipline they are chosen for.
I totally understand where you are coming from Pinkvboots and I agree I would have had the same reaction if I was told to keep a show horse indoors.

But from my lowly step midway up the dressage ladder looking up towards GP, with a non-blood horse, I can appreciate that I also have to manufacture hotness one way or the other in order to keep progressing. I would also not keep a horse of mine indoors, in order to achieve that, but I would have no chance if she was out 24/7 because she wouldn't rest enough to have the sparkle needed for the high level work. It's a whole new level of effort that I honestly couldn't grasp before now. I can only speak for my own horses, but as ester says it depends on the individual - mine is quite anxious in the field and burns off nervous energy that TBH i could well use in her work!

 

[meleeka]

Where did I justify anything I was asked if how Carl kept his horses made me sad I said no and gave an example of what made me sad .

Is a horse stabled 23/7 any more content than one on a tether for the same amount of time? Apart from the obvious provision of shelter, I can’t see much difference.

We are not in the example quoted thinking about a horse stabled 24/7 we are thinking about a horse in hard work getting turnout (or hand grazing if it’s on the run up to a championship) going on a walker and getting hacked out .
If you think that’s the same as horses who are tethered for days on end with Little f access to water no shelter from flys or rain and wind then I can’t explain it to you .[/QUOTE]

I didn’t say that was the same. I was referring to the posts regarding horses who have no turnout. I think that all horses need time at liberty to behave in a natural way and not getting that is a huge welfare issue.

 

[Tarragon]

In my youth I used to love the "hot" headed ponies that were always on their toes and just poised waiting for the instructions to up the gears, but without thinking about why the pony was that way.
Now, however, I can recognise the difference between an adrenaline fuelled pony that is on its toes because it is actually scared/worried/anxious and one that is happy and just bursting with energy.
Perhaps reading the original post in a slightly different way I felt that it emphasised that they were still getting the reactive responses from a horse that was mentally laid back.

 

[Goldenstar]

There’s no doubt that horses out at night are quieter .
My horses are tired when they come in in the morning and crash out .
When they first go out at night in spring they are really tired in the morning .

CH is not talking about that slightly insane stuff that goes in some places showing he’s talking about managing the energy levels of horses working at the very top level , the horses will be getting hard work ,time on the walker and turnout and hacking more exercise than most Horses stabled at night in winter .

Horses who travelling internationally also need to be used that type of life style hence why they will be hand grazed in the run up to a big competition because of the risk of injury and because you have to have the horses digestive system on a even keel .
And going from living out to being put on a plane to a long lorry haul taking several days is not good idea .

 

[indie1282]

I don't associate hotness with being wound up mentally.
I think a hot horse can be wound up, but it can also just be extremely keen, enthusiastic, "switched on", maybe spooky, perhaps sensitive, buzzy, often motivated. I don't think those other qualities are negative, I think they are mostly necessary.

I believe CDJ classes a hot horse as something that needs to accept the leg on and being ridden. Seeing as she trains with CH I imagin that's what he means as well.

I think of a hot horse as something very quick of the leg, reactive to the rider and the surroundings. A hot horse is forward going and has alot if energy.

Turning a hot horse out 24/7 means it will be more active so in theory once its ridden there should be a bit less energy to contain.

I also agree with MP in that some horses that are not hot and more laid back can benefit from being stable overnight so they have more energy for their ridden work.

 

[ihatework]

I think the slightly unsavoury thought in this type of conversation is that humans are using horses purely for their own benefit. Competition / earning a living etc. I understand why some people find that hard to stomach. But it’s a fact that we can’t deny.

So once ‘you’ accept that then you need to realise that competition horses are generally bred and raised for that job and are really quite far removed from living like nature intended. To that end ‘we’ need to do what is in the horses best interests within the boundaries that are reasonable. Those boundaries aren’t clear cut depending on your perspective.

Competition horses, like humans, have a variety of personalities, likes & dislikes etc and to my mind a good competition yard takes that into account and has sufficient flexibility in their system to accommodate differences.

I don’t think it’s discipline specific - Ive seen good/bad in all disciplines.

I think this all boils down to the OP misinterpretation of the word hot. A mentally stressed horse is the most difficult to work with and only the severely stupid or highly uneducated would keep a horse stabled to the point of confusing positive energy with mental breakdown.

It’s an art to produce horses to UL competition and yes, for many horses that involves more stabling than you local riding club stalwart.

 

[flying_high]

I bought a horse in 2004 from a very high profile dressage yard in Surrey. Horse was totally institutionalised, stabled 24/7 groomed, then on walker, then lunged by a groom, followed by ridden in indoor school, back on walker, bath, solarium and back to stable.

I brought him back to leafy Worcestershire promising him a wonderful relaxed life. It took him 12 months to adapt which included several injuries. I have never seen a horse who did not know how to graze, it was pitiful. He just stood looking at his new field companion grazing and had no idea that the green stuff under his feet could be eaten.

Did this surrey yard's name start with O and end with G?

 

[ycbm]

We have discovered that we cannot compete Dolly from the field. She is just too flat when we try. So for competition she has a night in first. It never occurred to me that this was unkind or wrong in any way? Amber happily competes from the field though.

That sounds more about energy levels than psychology AE ?

 

[ycbm]

The two wrongs arguments never work with me, sorry.

I wish was able to ask Carl exactly what he means, but I don't mix in those exalted circles, unfortunately.

 

[milliepops]

No 2 wrongs don't make a right, but I really don't think there's anything wrong with what he's talking about, so it's only one wrong!
it only comes across as wrong if you think that hot=stressed, which I think many of us have said we don't consider to be the case?
Do you think a hot horse (as in highly tuned and reactive) has to be a stressed out animal?

 

[sport horse]

The thought of a top competition horse being brought in from a field full of grass and then expected to work fills me with horror too. Would you eat a large dinner and then go for a long swim? Itis horses for courses.

I have show jumpers - they go out every day for a few hours. If the weather is bad they may not go out they may go on the walker. They are all ridden daily - maybe in the school but more often out hacking - their fitness is crucial not only to enable them to do their job but also to prevent injuries (unfit tendons and ligament are more prone to damage). Interestingly, if the weather is bad they are reluctant to leave their stables! Similarly if the weather comes in rough while they are out they are back at the gate calling to us to get them back in!!

I breed and have youngsters. They live out 24/7 for 8 months of the year. For Jan - April they are up in the yard in stables/barns. Rest assured on 2nd January (after all the Bank Holidays) when we open the field gates those horses are up and in the stables in a flash - we do not even have to catch them. For the first few days it is a fight to get them to leave their lovely dry straw bed and nice pile of sweet hay and come out for exercise periods in sand corrales.

If you think using horses for sport is cruel/unkind whatever then you must also think that riding your fat neddy out on a 2 hour hack is cruel otherwise you are a hypocrite. Maybe we should not ride horses at all and just keep them as pets - I suspect not many people would bother.

 

[J&S]

No 2 wrongs don't make a right, but I really don't think there's anything wrong with what he's talking about, so it's only one wrong!
it only comes across as wrong if you think that hot=stressed, which I think many of us have said we don't consider to be the case?
Do you think a hot horse (as in highly tuned and reactive) has to be a stressed out animal?

How would that horse be able to work to SUCH a high standard if it was stressed out?

 

[Scoti1420]

The thought of a top competition horse being brought in from a field full of grass and then expected to work fills me with horror too. Would you eat a large dinner and then go for a long swim? Itis horses for courses.

That's not what this thread is asking though - I think it's more along the lines of 'are dressage horses being kept in without TO to encourage hotness in the ring when they do come out their stables', and is that fair to them/their welfare?

Unfortunately I did work at a dressage yard like this, I don't think it was the intention but it was the outcome. The top horses were too valuable to turn out incase of injury, but when they were ridden and had masses of excess energy to burn, the main rider thought 'wow, they have so much energy to work, this is fantastic'

 

[ycbm]

No 2 wrongs don't make a right, but I really don't think there's anything wrong with what he's talking about, so it's only one wrong!
it only comes across as wrong if you think that hot=stressed, which I think many of us have said we don't consider to be the case?
Do you think a hot horse (as in highly tuned and reactive) has to be a stressed out animal?

I think we already established that it depends on how Carl meant the word.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Did this surrey yard's name start with O and end with G?

Could well do and when the owner of said yard bumped into us a couple of years later at the BD Nationals he reckoned he had not charged enough for the horse.

 

[milliepops]

I think we already established that it depends on how Carl meant the word.

given the emphasis on happy athletes at his yard I think it highly unlikely that he means stressed out nutter.

 

[DabDab]

I interpret hot in this context to mean mentally and physically up for it. Not frazzled and stressed.

I'm another who has horses that respond very differently to levels of turnout. Arts is more focussed and switched on being ridden from the field as opposed to being a bit looky and distracted if she's been stables beforehand. Dabs is best ridden after he has rested well in the stable and had plenty of hay, he has a bit of an 'are we nearly there yet' attitude if ridden from the field. I've also had many horses that it makes no odds with.

 

[eggs]

My understanding from previous things I have read is that Escapado was so hot that the only way to ride him was for him to live out

 

[milliepops]

My understanding from previous things I have read is that Escapado was so hot that the only way to ride him was for him to live out

well, yeah, my understanding was the same, I think Carl has also said that Nip Tuck has a lot more turnout for similar reasons. It's the flip side of the same coin I think, to say that they are hot enough to do the work when living out, as they live out because they are too hot otherwise!

 

[ycbm]

given the emphasis on happy athletes at his yard I think it highly unlikely that he means stressed out nutter.

Nobody is taking about stressed out nutters. Stressed out nutters don't win competitions.

I meant the difference between a good GP score from a mentally chilled horse and a great GP score from a sparked up horse, and whether anyone is deliberately setting out to achieve that difference by stabling the horse.

I think it's a valid question now that we know the prevalence of ulcers in competition horses.

.

 

[DabDab]

I bought a horse in 2004 from a very high profile dressage yard in Surrey. Horse was totally institutionalised, stabled 24/7 groomed, then on walker, then lunged by a groom, followed by ridden in indoor school, back on walker, bath, solarium and back to stable.

I brought him back to leafy Worcestershire promising him a wonderful relaxed life. It took him 12 months to adapt which included several injuries. I have never seen a horse who did not know how to graze, it was pitiful. He just stood looking at his new field companion grazing and had no idea that the green stuff under his feet could be eaten.

I had a couple to do the initial reschooling on that a friend bought from the same place (for a pittance), one she took back fairly quickly to just turn out for a while and the other did come round quite quickly, but started off reluctant to walk forwards at all and had to be ridden in just a headcollar for a while to convince him to uncurl. Definitely put me off the place. That was around 2007

 

[ihatework]

Nobody is taking about stressed out nutters. Stressed out nutters don't win competitions.

I meant the difference between a good GP score from a mentally chilled horse and a great GP score from a sparked up horse, and whether anyone is deliberately setting out to achieve that difference by stabling the horse.

I think it's a valid question now that we know the prevalence of ulcers in competition horses.

.

A good (not great) GP horse doesn’t win medals. It doesn’t attract owners. It doesn’t win top sponsorship. It doesn’t attract as much lottery funding.

So the top riders, if they have to stable a bit more to get the sparkle to achieve that, they do.

Whether you consider that extra sparkle to be a welfare issue????

Depends on the horse and how it’s achieved. It also depends on the horses management in the off season.

 

[SpringArising]

Does anyone actually have proof that Carl's horses go out as much as HE says they do?