Competitive spark and living out.

[flying_high]

Thats the thing, if you had trained said horse yourself to that level... things would be different for all of us, I'm sure.
Its hard to comment really as never personally competed at that level or owned/trained a horse to that standard... it saddens me they are stabled most of their lives but they're athletes and have a job to do (I suppose)
I can only imagine how precious they are let alone how much money they are worth for a field injury to ruin their career?

But I think the risk of soft tissue injury or strain increases if horses are

was hoping you would spot this thread Real life experience is really valuable!

My comment was based on real life experience too. I did a tour of Carl’s yard admittedly a few years ago. The question was asked about being on low lying clay and mid winter turnout and he said wasn’t always possible to turnout if land wet but did as much as possible.

I’d assume that as it’s still same low lying clay it’s still the same?

Daffy do you disagree re land being low and wet for turnout mid winter if a wet winter? And not typically turning out if land saturated and boggy in middle of winter?

 

[milliepops]

My comment was based on real life experience too. I did a tour of Carl’s yard admittedly a few years ago. The question was asked about being on low lying clay and mid winter turnout and he said wasn’t always possible to turnout if land wet but did as much as possible.

I’d assume that as it’s still same low lying clay it’s still the same?

of course
I've been on a couple of yard visits too, and used to keep my horses about a mile up the road so know the area pretty well. But daffy is there pretty often so I would take her experience as more representative than mine, being as I have only been through the gates on open days, hence the comment about "real life"

 

[daffy44]

I totally agree that it is low lying, clay, and therefore daily turnout in the worst months is not possible, but in my experience its a very few months that his horses are not turned out, two or three maximum, and in those months there is a lot of hand grazing and also hand walking in the arenas so they walk in a larger space than a horse walker.

 

[J&S]

I think that the proof is in the pudding: at the Greenwich Olympics, after the great team competition, Carl and Charlotte were able to sit there horses to receive their medals and then ride happily, one handed, around the huge arena, crowds going mad and banners waving, and their horses just reveled in the attention. The other prize winners came in unmounted and team handed just to hold the horses who displayed varying examples of stress/worry. Surely this is an example of relaxed and confident horses, so however they are kept at home to my mind they are definitely doing it well. They are producing happy winners.
I once read that Mary King never trotted her horses on the roads, I walk out for miles only trotting where neccesary or appropriate, what is good for her must be good for my horses/ponies. So I can imagine that other owners might want to emulate CH's way of doing things.

 

[JFTDWS]

I'm not commenting on CH because I neither know nor care about his yard.

I do think it's morally unacceptable to stable a horse unnecessarily to make it "hot" enough to win a class, if being "hot" involves that horse being (excessively) stressed or wired. I don't care if that's stabling for an hour, overnight, or 24/7.

I don't think it's a problem if people stable horses before work in order for them to have more energy / be better prepared for work, if that's not a cause of significant psychological stress in the horse.

I imagine which one people do is pretty individual to the horse and to the system.

 

[daffy44]

"I do think it's morally unacceptable to stable a horse unnecessarily to make it "hot" enough to win a class, if being "hot" involves that horse being (excessively) stressed or wired. I don't care if that's stabling for an hour, overnight, or 24/7.

I don't think it's a problem if people stable horses before work in order for them to have more energy / be better prepared for work, if that's not a cause of significant psychological stress in the horse.

I imagine which one people do is pretty individual to the horse and to the system." JFTD-WS



Couldnt agree more.

 

[BBP]

When I was in NZ the horses never came in before competitions. They lived out 24/7 on big hilly fields. Even if we travelled a distance to competitions we would seek to lay over with friends nearby where they could be turned out as a group overnight rather than be stabled at the showground where possible. So to me the idea that they can’t perform at their best from the field is a bit alien. (These included a grand prix SJ who won the horse of the year show, and 3-4* eventers so not amateur low level competition horses. My experience with top level dressage horses is more limited.) That’s my kind of life, relaxed happy horses with enough energy to compete at high level including on national teams.

 

[Goldenstar]

Hot to me means very reactive not stressed

 

[flying_high]

I totally agree that it is low lying, clay, and therefore daily turnout in the worst months is not possible, but in my experience its a very few months that his horses are not turned out, two or three maximum, and in those months there is a lot of hand grazing and also hand walking in the arenas so they walk in a larger space than a horse walker.

Thanks. I was never meaning to imply Carl mislead or that he doesn’t keep horses ethically. I’ve kept horses on low lying wet clay and found it very hard if have a wet winter. Hence being interested how he managed.

 

[HashRouge]

When I was in NZ the horses never came in before competitions. They lived out 24/7 on big hilly fields. Even if we travelled a distance to competitions we would seek to lay over with friends nearby where they could be turned out as a group overnight rather than be stabled at the showground where possible. So to me the idea that they can’t perform at their best from the field is a bit alien. (These included a grand prix SJ who won the horse of the year show, and 3-4* eventers so not amateur low level competition horses. My experience with top level dressage horses is more limited.) That’s my kind of life, relaxed happy horses with enough energy to compete at high level including on national teams.

Do you know if that was the norm for NZ, or was your yard unusual? I have an Australian friend who groomed over here for William Fox-Pitt, and she told me that where she worked previously in Aus the competition horses lived out, but I don't know how representative that was.

I've worked for two different pro SJ riders and they both turned out as much as their land allowed. They were both on clay (one of them really deep) so they couldn't turn out all the way through the winter if it was wet, but certainly didn't close their fields in the winter. One of them in particular would ask me (I was his YM) all the way through the winter whether the fields were dry enough that day to get the horses out! His horses often went out in pairs or even threes too, he just had a couple that went on their own due (but could groom/ interact over fences). For both riders, they felt the horses were too hot if they didn't go out at all, and one of them used to say he would have them living out all year if his land allowed it. He had a friend come and stay with his string of horses for a bit (his arena was being resurfaced) and their horses all lived out as they were on sandy soil. That was a pro SJ rider too.

I don't know if I was just lucky with my experiences though.

 

[ycbm]

Hot to me means very reactive not stressed

If a horse doesn't wear itself out fence walking or hooleying around, lies down and sleeps plenty, doesn't have a belly full of grass just before you work it, and it's not as reactive when it lives out that way as it is when it lives in, then I'd be inclined to put that down to higher levels of stress hormones. It's difficult to know what else it could be.

..

 

[Goldenstar]

Very hot horses are just really sharp and sharp to the aids , that’s in them bred in them in the case of the best bred for GP warmbloods.
They are mega quick thinking and react quickly it’s not a stress thing that’s different
I have no problem with you thinking it’s the same thing I just know from the horses I dealt with it’s not .

 

[Brownmare]

If a horse doesn't wear itself out fence walking or hooleying around, lies down and sleeps plenty, doesn't have a belly full of grass just before you work it, and it's not as reactive when it lives out that way as it is when it lives in, then I'd be inclined to put that down to higher levels of stress hormones. It's difficult to know what else it could be.

..

I would say it would most likely be the simple difference in levels of activity. A horse in a field will be walking almost constantly, looking around and listening to its surroundings, trotting over to something interesting, walking a distance from the tastiest grass to the water trough or to a good rolling spot etc etc whereas a stabled horse can do no more than a couple of steps each way from door to haynet and back.

I have never competed at a high level but the nearest comparison I have is the whippet I used to do dog agility with (bear with me...). He used to have free run of the farm all day, mostly tootling around the yard and the fields next to it sniffing the sniffs and occasionally putting up a bunny or a squirrel. On agility training days I had to keep him in the house for the afternoon or he would just pootle around the obstacles with no oomph. When his exercise was restricted he would zoom around in true whippet warp speed! This was not stress based as he had no separation anxiety and would sleep happily all afternoon, it was simply that the energy he would usually use up clocking up the miles around the farm was saved up to use in one hour at the end of the day instead.

I will say that I have seen some truly dreadful horse keeping including an olympic dressage rider's yard where the horse's didn't see natural daylight let alone turnout but had "the best of care" truly a gilded cage. Also, a few run of the mill livery owners who kept horses stabled with no exercise for days on end because of sheer laziness! Logically it makes sense to turn out as much as possible for health and conditioning, what human athlete would ever consider it appropriate to spend 23 hours confined to one room then train at full effort for the other hour? It would be asking for injury!

I do think horse keeping is somewhat stuck in the dark ages, held back by tradition. It would be illegal now to keep farm animals the way some horses are kept! One of my own horses is a highly strung WB who did the standard pacing at the fenceline at 3pm on the dot when I got him. He now lives out 24/7 and is loose housed with others in an open barn and yard over winter and is massively happier and healthier, although it was a long and gradual process to undo all his previous conditioning. I appreciate many are restricted by ground conditions and livery set-ups but it is encouraging to see the number of new track liveries setting up recently.

 

[SpringArising]

Very hot horses are just really sharp and sharp to the aids , that’s in them bred in them in the case of the best bred for GP warmbloods.
They are mega quick thinking and react quickly it’s not a stress thing that’s different
I have no problem with you thinking it’s the same thing I just know from the horses I dealt with it’s not .

But that's only your perception of what being hot means.

I wouldn't describe a horse who is 'just really sharp and sharp to the aids' as being hot - I would describe that as an obedient horse.

 

[BBP]

Do you know if that was the norm for NZ, or was your yard unusual? I have an Australian friend who groomed over here for William Fox-Pitt, and she told me that where she worked previously in Aus the competition horses lived out, but I don't know how representative that was.

I've worked for two different pro SJ riders and they both turned out as much as their land allowed. They were both on clay (one of them really deep) so they couldn't turn out all the way through the winter if it was wet, but certainly didn't close their fields in the winter. One of them in particular would ask me (I was his YM) all the way through the winter whether the fields were dry enough that day to get the horses out! His horses often went out in pairs or even threes too, he just had a couple that went on their own due (but could groom/ interact over fences). For both riders, they felt the horses were too hot if they didn't go out at all, and one of them used to say he would have them living out all year if his land allowed it. He had a friend come and stay with his string of horses for a bit (his arena was being resurfaced) and their horses all lived out as they were on sandy soil. That was a pro SJ rider too.

I don't know if I was just lucky with my experiences though.

It certainly seemed normal in my local area. We had a brand now built barn with stables and yet never once did a horse stay in for more than a few hours. I worked for Mark Todd out there when he was training racehorses and all of the racehorses lived out overnight in pairs, would get brought into big boxes in the morning, worked and then turned out again after they were worked.

The two guy in these photos (on their winter holidays at this point, hence fat and furry) were both jumping at NZ Grand Prix level, straight from this field, which had a vertical face cut in it as they had quarried sand out of it...no health and safety here! (The little chunky one was a pig pony prior to being a SJer, he would go out into the hills on hunting trips and come back down with wild pigs slung over his back! Every winter he would go completely feral and the first few sessions back in work he would tank off on the lunge into the distance).

 

[criso]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but the phrase CH used and the thread title is live out. I would take that to mean out 24/7 and only coming in to work or attention before going back out.

Between living out and stabled 24/7 there is a range but most leisure horses would be towards the middle and CH horses on that line. However it sounded to me like Escapado was the exception.

So discussing whether it is possible for a horse at that level and living out 24/7 is not the same as stabling constantly to create a heightened state.

When I was younger and very competitive, my pony (mostly Anglo Arab so more small horse) lived out as did all. However we would always keep in the night before a show. This was partly convenience, fields were a fair distance and also could bath and plait the day before but we also felt they had a little more the next day. Huge range of temperaments, mine was calm but not lazy, and none had their temperament radically changed by this treatment.

The only other thing I would mention, when summer comes some people turn out overnight, stabled by day, some don't. Some find when switching to night turnout their horses have less energy and can be quite lazy to ride. Mine have a routine where they come in and have a morning nap in the stable. As I have 2, one retired, they take it in turns to sleep/keep watch. Ym catches in early, by 6am so even if I am competing, they have time and ready to work by the time I get there. But if I interrupted this, would I have a less motivated horse?

 

[cundlegreen]

Again, two wrongs don't make a right. You mention two separate issues, surely the answer is to make sure your horses have turnout with company and enough space to exercise themselves.

But people don't... All mine are turned out in a herd, they soon sort out a pecking order, and all look very well for it.

 

[cundlegreen]

Away from dressage and eventing. I know of a couple who show welsh Ds.. to me, they're fat over weight horses but they does well in the showing world and place most time out.

They currently have a foal they got after it was weaned. The poor colt was in a box for months to 'build condition for showing'.. and now maybe gets a day turned out every month. Apparently its normal, I think its cruel.. they then complai when the foal bites, rears and box walks. Grr..

Quite standard in the welsh showing world, I'm afraid. As is the practice of weaning a foal the day it is taken to the sales.

 

[Peter7917]

I appreciate the low level riding club stuff I do cannot compare, however I have personally never found a problem competing from the field.

If I want my horse to be chilled and easy then he just gets hay.
If I want him to be full of himself and a handful (for mounted games or similar) then he gets hard feed.

I find feed makes a much bigger difference in my horses behaviour than if he is turned out 24/7 or not.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Jenny does better competed from the field as she is even more whizzy than normal when stabled. Dolly does better competing after being in as she is flat. She lives out but comes in overnight for comps. I assume she spends a lot more energy when out playing and moving around to graze as they live on a hill with the grass at the top and the water at the bottom. It makes no difference either way to Amber. None are stressed in their stables at all. Horses for courses. In this as in everything else. They are individuals with as many variations in what they like and thrive on as we do.

 

[9tails]

The thought of a top competition horse being brought in from a field full of grass and then expected to work fills me with horror too. Would you eat a large dinner and then go for a long swim? Itis horses for courses.

I have show jumpers - they go out every day for a few hours. If the weather is bad they may not go out they may go on the walker. They are all ridden daily - maybe in the school but more often out hacking - their fitness is crucial not only to enable them to do their job but also to prevent injuries (unfit tendons and ligament are more prone to damage). Interestingly, if the weather is bad they are reluctant to leave their stables! Similarly if the weather comes in rough while they are out they are back at the gate calling to us to get them back in!!

I think the reason you're filled with horror at a horse being asked to work off grass is because yours most likely stuff their faces on the few hours they have. Those that live out don't tend to do that.