Concrete on yard disintegrating in the frost?

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Thistle

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We had new concrete yards laid when we moved house last autumn. The frost/snow seems to have got into the yard and it's falling apart. The top surface has totally come off (scaling) and a few cracks have opened up.

The builder is coming round in the next few weeks to have a look.

Has anyone else had a problem?

I'm taliking about 10k's worth of yard including the labour for laying etc etc so am obviously a bit miffed that it's fallen apart.
 
Ouch! I feel for you! I can only suggest contacting the contractor and asking what they're going to do to put it right.
 
Not on the yard, but the tarmac lane is a disaster zone - potholes the size of the Grand Canyon.
Ice will do that, unfortunately. If water gets into any spaces and freezes, the expansion will force chunks to move.
Sounds like your original workmen may have done a less than thorough job - I'm sure an independent expert / surveyor could probably give you an objective view.
 
I had some concrete that cracked in extreme cold and was advised by the contractor that this occurs when concrete is poured on soil that holds water regardless of any hardcore that may be on top of said soil. I had a surveyor look at it and he disputed this saying that the problem was that the concrete had not been poured correctly allowing water the penetrate the surface which consequently caused the surface to crack after a heavy frost and that the larger cracks were in fact settlement cracks again caused by the contractor failing to compact the hardcore correctly. I would see what your contractor says but if he tries to fob you off it is well worth the minor expense of a surveyor compared to the cost of repairs if the contractor does not accept liability!
 
the weather will be major cause.

however if the wrong type and mix of concrete was used this will also play a part.

the mix at my yard is very old yet barely failing bar a few pot holes as expected.

i would be getting the builder out and possible an independent assessment to check its been laid right.
 
I dont know if you have used salt in the bad weather but it is very corrosive to concrete and should not be used on it.
 
Ours did that as soon as rock salt used - was advised against using it on concrete (luckily it was a path not the yard!) - now use a patch of dirty shavings on yard to stop horses slipping instead - turned our path to sludghe within 48hrs :mad:
 
The yard was only salted once, very lightly, and only on a narrow trackway to the fields. The yard has broken up where it has never been salted abd places 'uphill' of the salted area so not run off.

By last Autumn I mean 15 months ago.

The old concrete was removed, the whole area cleared, new hardcore, membrane and re enforcing grid used, the yard surface is now full of shallow craters and very difficult to sweep, if you kick it with your toe it crumbles.

Has anyone claimed for this sort of thing of house insurance? I guess it's frost damage just as it would be if your pipes burst?

The yard mainly faces North in a U shape so is pretty much in the shade at this time of year (was already here, couldn't change it as it's listed). It stayed frozen for the whole time so didn't get a 'freeze/thaw' cycle going on which is what is supposed to do all the damage.

We built the stables and yard at my old house and had some pretty severe weather over the 10 years, however the yard never broke up. Should the builders have specified an additive in the mix for outdoor use?
 
My old livery yards concrete did this - we had the full concrete additive for farm use on our yard at home not sure if it had anythign for outdoor use just to stop ammonia from urine damaging it. We had a few flakes off the top the first year after the first hard frosts but not deep and nothing since
 
We had a very large area of concrete laid and we've not had this problem at all, over both this winter and last. I wonder whether its to do with whether it was treated etc? Ours was, I think... Definitely ring the contractors.
 
It doesn't sound right to me, our concrete has been down for more than 10 years with barely a mark on it. I would be on to the contractors asking them to put it right.
 
Hi OP

I work in construction (yes i am female!!) a number of different issues can cause this predomiantly down to poor workmanship and incorrect construction of the slab due to a number of factors, poor foundation ie no hardcore laid or not compacted properly, incorrect mix of concrete to substrate, the temperature at the time it was laid as it needs to be 4'c and rising, length of time left to cure (concrete to go hard), incorrect thickness of the slab, the list goes on pooring large slabs are a work of art thats why when they do large buildings they get cube tests/ m2 of the slab this ensures the concrete is reaching a sufficient strength.

Cement in concrete is the glue that binds the sand and stone together. If you add too much water to concrete, you dilute the cement in the mixture. When this happens, concrete is very susceptible to cracking from freeze-thaw cycles. The recent cold weather with snow and rain is ideal conditions for freeze-thaw failure.

By cracks are we talking large cracks or just the top layer breaking off? or is it just in one partcular area?

Sometimes a thin concrete overlay can be used to in effect cap and prevent this issue reoccurring however this would only solve minor issues if its major cracks then the whole slab would be affected and may require major work.

Regardless its poor workmanship and I would get the contractor out to have a look and see what he proposes as a solution. Also if he starts being silly get a couple of other contractors to look at it.

Hope this helps

K x
 
Hopefully we can sort this out easily. The main contractor is a very good friend of ours, he has done lots of work for us over the years and I trust him. However I know he will try to wriggle. He sub contracted the concrete laying to someone else who is a well known and reliable bricklayer who also does groundworks.

The concrete was laid in managable slabs with expansion joints. As far as I recall 4-6" hardcore, reinforcing mesh and 4-6" concrete on top. It was laid during Sept 2009, weather was a bit hot some of the time and some slabs had to be sprinkled to prevent them drying out too quickly.

The scaling has occured pretty much over the whole area. We are in Herts lowest temp was -11 on one night we haven't had the extremes of weather that some areas have had. There is one long crack opened up, about 2mm wide and 4 m long. This is parallel to a building about 1m away.

Luckily we have a very experienced surveyor working with us on our house as it's a listed building undergoing extensive renovation. If the builder is awkward I shall get his opinion too.

Does anyone have any experience of claiming for repairs under house insurance?

It's odd that this didn't happen last winter when we had similar weather????
 
Yip same at our yard - we now have a few holes in the drive way and the concrete under my stable door has buckled and cracked and the door will need to be rehung - the roads are bad too - any parts of the road that were relaid in the last year have all just started to crumble!
 
My yard is 12 years old and it's fine. I put the hardcore down myself, but I paid LaFarge for their pukka ready mix concrete which was called farm pave mix, it has fibres in it and it's meant specifically for use on stable/farm yards. The only concrete area we have a problem with, is a small area we mixed ourselves with our own mixer, that has not done so well in the bad weather.

It sounds like your builder did not do a good enough job and you should get a surveyor in if they will not put the problem right.
 
Out of interest did the sub contractor who laid the cement batch it up on site or bring it in? Its harder to batch on site as human error can play a huge part for a large slab like yours you would expect them to bring in in the ready mix lorries such as lafarge, bardons etc that would be staggered to keep a continuous pour for each part of the slab.

As it is the whole slab thats affected and what you are describing appears to be settlement cracks which suggests a systemic problem with the foundation which indicates iandequate site preparation ie didnt compact the hardcore enough or lay it to an adequate depth, or not provide enough expansion joints - There is a saying in the construction industry that goes something like this- "Every concrete wagon that comes to your job to pour a slab has at least four cracks in it. It's up to you to either provide expansion joints, or not. If you leave out expansion joints the cracks will occur in a pattern at natural stress points in the slab."

I hope you get it sorted and your surveyor should be able to help if he starts trying to weedle his way out of it!!
 
All the concrete was ready mix from a local supplier. I'm pretty sure there are enough expansion joints, certainly more than in my old yard anyway.

The yard is also laid in a U shape, it's about 12 foot wide in front of the stables and a bit more in front of the barn. There is a grassed area in the middle of the U that continues to the open end.
 
I have had half a lifetime in medium and large scale construction right from mixing the stuff up by hand down at the lower end of the foodchain to being the supervising boss at Canary Wharf amongst other sites. I know a little about concrete.

Some others have posted solid advice above - the most important point about concrete is the mix. The amount and ratio of cement, aggregate ( sand & ballast ) and most important - the water. There are also varying types of cement but you needn't worry too much about this as they should all stand reasonable amounts of freeze / thaw without damage if they were mixed and laid correctly.

"Ready Mix" concrete has two main connotations - one where the delivery lorry looks like a revolving ice cream cone and the other type where the lorry carries a machine to mix on site - this second sort is open to abuse as the driver is responsible for setting the amount of cement in the mix. The first is batch mixed in a special plant; however; even at these plants - the drivers are often self-employed slaves and will do anything to palm off a load going hard in their truck.

Ready mix can spend a long time in the delivery lorry depending on the traffic and if your load was included in a multi-drop - all concrete has a must-be-laid-by time - but you will rarely be told of this by the driver! Some mixes have a thrixotrophic additive to keep it "alive" but this can have a detrimental effect when it's tipped on site in a big heap and begins to set as it settles - guys on site often over water it to get it moving again leading to problems.

Concrete doesn't have to be laid on anything to be good - hardcore, vibrated substrates etc., it can for instance be poured into shuttering ( boxes ) to actually create a building but great care is taken over mixing, pouring or placing and then the aftercare while it cures. It must never go above 85 degrees F or below freezing obviously.

Good concrete is almost waterproof when set but the fact that some water can pass through it should not lead to frost damage - the internal structure should be able to resist it.


From what you say about your job - it looks that it was done with the best of intentions but you know what they say about those eh?


Now, what other gems can I pass on? Oh yes, if it's true that if three horseypeople get together - two of them will bitch about the other - all builders have an ingrained "that'll do" approach to work and an abiding loathing of ever changing anything even it they know it to wrong - so beware!
 
when i had my yard built i used Agricultural concrete , never had any problems with it at all ,and we have - temps for around 4-5 months of the year , the temps the county has been having just now is Normal for us here .
 
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