Condition of these frogs?

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Marigold4

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My 14 year old broodmare has recently been diagnosed with navicular, visible on x-rays. She is 1 to 2/10ths lame on a hardish surface and on a small circle. She's had a course of Cartiphen injections but she's no less lame (mabe too early to tell effect?). I'm not convinced she has navicular as she has never been shod and only briefly ridden (literally 6 weeks). It just doesn't make any sense.

So I'm checking out other causes and wondered if she has thrush in her central sulcus or some other frog-related soreness.

Here are some photos of both fronts and of heel bulbs. Anyone got any thoughts on the condition of her front frogs? She is trimmed every 6 weeks and the last trim was 3 weeks ago.
 
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Frogs look fine, some flappy bits that'll be cut off at next trim and some horses are happier with less prominent bars.

What is this? 4th pic. Looks like a deep hole/crack.
 

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Jambarissa said:
Frogs look fine, some flappy bits that'll be cut off at next trim and some horses are happier with less prominent bars.

What is this? 4th pic. Looks like a deep hole/crack.
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That's where I cut a little flap of loose skin away as it was obscuring the heel a bit. So the skin under is a little darker. :)
 
Marigold4 said:
My 14 year old broodmare has recently been diagnosed with navicular, visible on x-rays. She is 1 to 2/10ths lame on a hardish surface and on a small circle. She's had a course of Cartiphen injections but she's no less lame (mabe too early to tell effect?). I'm not convinced she has navicular as she has never been shod and only briefly ridden (literally 6 weeks). It just doesn't make any sense.

So I'm checking out other causes and wondered if she has thrush in her central sulcus or some other frog-related soreness.

Here are some photos of both fronts and of heel bulbs. Anyone got any thoughts on the condition of her front frogs? She is trimmed every 6 weeks and the last trim was 3 weeks ago.
Click to expand...
My navicular mare was 1 10ths lame on hard ground, she goes footy even with shoes until you put dental impressions on then she is happy.

Best thing to do is speak to your vets, did they do xrays on her??
 
ILuvCowparsely said:
My navicular mare was 1 10ths lame on hard ground, she goes footy even with shoes until you put dental impressions on then she is happy.

Best thing to do is speak to your vets, did they do xrays on her??
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I have spoken to my vet several times and she has had a lameness work up. They xrayed her and found bone changes that could indicate navicular. I am not convinced this is the cause though.
 
My first thought was it all looks too perfect! The frog looks like its been cut way too much. Imo, barefoot feet should be left well alone. With plenty of movement and the right diet and environment, frogs will sort themselves out. They don't need paring back. They'll look a bit scruffy and sometimes have bits hanging off but they'll be healthy and functional.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
My first thought was it all looks too perfect! The frog looks like its been cut way too much. Imo, barefoot feet should be left well alone. With plenty of movement and the right diet and environment, frogs will sort themselves out. They don't need paring back. They'll look a bit scruffy and sometimes have bits hanging off but they'll be healthy and functional.
Click to expand...
That's not actually completely true for lots of horses, given the environment/weather we have in the UK. We are on heavy clay for instance, and although I have a good amount of mud free area, it's far from ideal. For many years of trimming my own, I did actually leave frogs alone, only cutting off obvious flaps occasionally...which was kind of ok for my gelding who has absolutely rock hard bare feet. The last few years, having had several foster ponies plus a medically challenged youngster, I have learned that it just doesn't work. The pony hooves grow downwards and the frogs go with them - you just HAVE to trim frog when you trim the feet, otherwise the frog would stand proud. My youngster tended to grow her frogs in all directions, clogging up the collateral grooves and heels and allowing thrushy pockets to form and meaning debris was trapped out of reach of a hoofpick. I had to teach myself to trim her frogs, and these days have very few issues. Obviously I'm trimming for function, not aesthetics.
 
Photo 4 shows a dark line where the heel meets the frog. Have a good look and check that the frog isn't acting as a lid for some thrush to hide under. Maybe have a look at Cavallo's Barefoot Trim video on line and compare it with your girl. Soaking her hooves in a Dettol solution for ten minutes a day will start to clear any thrush if you think there is something brewing.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
My first thought was it all looks too perfect! The frog looks like its been cut way too much. Imo, barefoot feet should be left well alone. With plenty of movement and the right diet and environment, frogs will sort themselves out. They don't need paring back. They'll look a bit scruffy and sometimes have bits hanging off but they'll be healthy and functional.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure which bit of the frog looks as if it has been cut away too much. In domestic horses, certainly in the UK with our environment I don't think we can always leave feet to DIY. Often assistance is needed

From the pics, which is not real life, I can't see a lot of problems with the frogs however if you get a hoof pick and poke them hard all over with the pointed end especially in the central sulchus you may get some reaction.
 
Marigold4 said:
I have spoken to my vet several times and she has had a lameness work up. They xrayed her and found bone changes that could indicate navicular. I am not convinced this is the cause though.
Click to expand...


Your vet appears to be grasping at straws in the dark. It has been decades now since it was discovered that bony changes on x ray, unless there are obvious spurs, chips or the bone is falling apart, do not correlate well with lameness from caudal hoof pain, which is almost always soft tissue in origin.

You need MRI to diagnose that kind of lameness and it can happen in barefoot horses.
.
 
ycbm said:
Your vet appears to be grasping at straws in the dark. It has been decades now since it was discovered that bony changes on x ray, unless there are obvious spurs, chips or the bone is falling apart, do not correlate well with lameness from caudal hoof pain, which is almost always soft tissue in origin.

You need MRI to diagnose that kind of lameness and it can happen in barefoot horses.
.
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Thanks for replying. It's a tricky one. She's not very lame and she's not ridden. I agree (and so does my vet) that only an MRI would be conclusive, so the navicular diagnosis is a best guess based on xrays. But that would cost £££. And if it is navicular, what we do differently? The thing is she is not reactive for heel pain with hoof testers, but slightly sore at the toe, so I'm not convinced. She is also reactive to front flexion tests. I'm just pondering/ruling out other causes for her lameness - I'm not very good at not knowing and would feel bad if it was something (like thrush) that could be fixed. I don't think it is a well-being issue yet as she's not noticeably lame in straight lines or in the field, just on a small circle and stepping from soft to hard. I guess she will either get better or get worse, whatever it is. Vet says she is not lame enough for nerve blocking to be useful.
 
paddy555 said:
I'm not sure which bit of the frog looks as if it has been cut away too much. In domestic horses, certainly in the UK with our environment I don't think we can always leave feet to DIY. Often assistance is needed

From the pics, which is not real life, I can't see a lot of problems with the frogs however if you get a hoof pick and poke them hard all over with the pointed end especially in the central sulchus you may get some reaction.
Click to expand...
Will do. So if she has thrush, the frog will be soft?
 
Highmileagecob said:
Photo 4 shows a dark line where the heel meets the frog. Have a good look and check that the frog isn't acting as a lid for some thrush to hide under. Maybe have a look at Cavallo's Barefoot Trim video on line and compare it with your girl. Soaking her hooves in a Dettol solution for ten minutes a day will start to clear any thrush if you think there is something brewing.
Click to expand...
Thanks for replying. I'll take a look.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
My first thought was it all looks too perfect! The frog looks like its been cut way too much. Imo, barefoot feet should be left well alone. With plenty of movement and the right diet and environment, frogs will sort themselves out. They don't need paring back. They'll look a bit scruffy and sometimes have bits hanging off but they'll be healthy and functional.
Click to expand...
Thanks for replying. I don't think my trimmer takes much off the frog, but I will ask him next time he comes.
 
Landcruiser said:
That's not actually completely true for lots of horses, given the environment/weather we have in the UK. We are on heavy clay for instance, and although I have a good amount of mud free area, it's far from ideal. For many years of trimming my own, I did actually leave frogs alone, only cutting off obvious flaps occasionally...which was kind of ok for my gelding who has absolutely rock hard bare feet. The last few years, having had several foster ponies plus a medically challenged youngster, I have learned that it just doesn't work. The pony hooves grow downwards and the frogs go with them - you just HAVE to trim frog when you trim the feet, otherwise the frog would stand proud. My youngster tended to grow her frogs in all directions, clogging up the collateral grooves and heels and allowing thrushy pockets to form and meaning debris was trapped out of reach of a hoofpick. I had to teach myself to trim her frogs, and these days have very few issues. Obviously I'm trimming for function, not aesthetics.
Click to expand...
Thanks for replying, Landcruiser. That's interesting what you say about trimming frogs differently for different conditions.
 
Marigold4 said:
Will do. So if she has thrush, the frog will be soft?
Click to expand...
if she has thrush in the central sulchus and you poke hard it will be sore and she will react as it will hurt.

If you put either cotton wool or a square of towel (or similar) on the end of your hoof pick point you will be able to draw it through the CS and it will clean out any gunk at the bottom of the CS. Clean out the co lateral grooves this way with cotton wool as well. May as well get it all clean and ruled out.

If you are not getting any reaction to doing these then I think thrush may be low on your list of things to check.
 
paddy555 said:
I'm not sure which bit of the frog looks as if it has been cut away too much. In domestic horses, certainly in the UK with our environment I don't think we can always leave feet to DIY. Often assistance is needed

From the pics, which is not real life, I can't see a lot of problems with the frogs however if you get a hoof pick and poke them hard all over with the pointed end especially in the central sulchus you may get some reaction.
Click to expand...
All of it.
That's exactly my point...you can't see a lot of problems with the frogs. They look too perfect and yet....the horse isn't sound. I'm not saying that's down to the frogs but it could be. The foot-iest horses I've seen are the ones who are fresh from a trim with an over-zealous farrier.
I've used this example so many times that I even bore myself with it but I liken it to a human foot. Hard, callous skin on the heels looks awful but if you're walking without shoes, you'd be glad of it. Get a foot file and aggressively rasp all that hard skin off to reveal nice fresh pink skin and then try walking barefoot. You'll really tell the difference.
 
Have you done the hoof landing video? Put phone on the floor and walk past it. Still shot the moment of landing and see if it's toe first, flat or heel first. Heel first is what you're aiming for. If a horse is landing heel first, I'd be looking elsewhere than the hoof for lameness.
 
paddy555 said:
if she has thrush in the central sulchus and you poke hard it will be sore and she will react as it will hurt.

If you put either cotton wool or a square of towel (or similar) on the end of your hoof pick point you will be able to draw it through the CS and it will clean out any gunk at the bottom of the CS. Clean out the co lateral grooves this way with cotton wool as well. May as well get it all clean and ruled out.

If you are not getting any reaction to doing these then I think thrush may be low on your list of things to check.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that advice. I will give it a go tomorrow. I spray the frogs a couple of times a week with Sole Cleanse so will maybe put some of that on the cotton wool to clean?
 
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