Conformation - a debate!

[Lucy_Ally]

The equine vet journal are having a special issue on conformation:

EVJ Special Issue on Conformation

A special issue of EVJ is planned for the latter part of 2006 on the subject of ‘Clinical consequences of equine conformation on orthopaedic health (soundness)’. Content is based on papers already submitted, but submissions received up to 15th June 2006 will be considered subject to the usual peer review process.

So what do you think? Does conformation have a role to play in soundness, if so why do you think this? Do you think it is of little consequence? Would you buy a horse with a conformational problem? What conformational faults do you consider as acceptable when looking for a horse?

Thoughts please

 

[siennamum]

Absolutely critical imo. Wouldn't buy a horse which didn't have near perfect conformation. Key things I demand are:
Fantastic front legs straight with good flat bone, short cannons, good feet (though I will accept a small turn) correct hoof pastern axis, hocks must be absolutely correct - not too straight & not at all sickle (though slightly cow hocked is ok). Will not buy anything which has a jumpers or hunters bump, or which has anything but a nice bottom, not too long or too short in the back and a well set on neck.

 

[aran]

why are we so conformation driven though - there is no scientific correlation between conformational defects and pathology - however we see a leg that is slightly upright and we freak - is it just like the chestnut mare syndrome?

also what is 'good' or 'poor' conformation - they are wishy washy descriptive terms (not my words but stolen from vets and human rheumatologists!). No equine biomechanics expert will even entertain the issue of conformation and most scientists trying to measure conformation linked with pathology have abandoned the idea as no links can be shown

also many top or outstanding competition horses have had the 'worst' conformation ever - for instance sea biscuit - so where do we get the notion that poor conformation = unsoundness?

 

[jacks_mum]

i think conformation plays a big part in soundness but what is acceptable as a 'fault', for me depends on what one wants to do with the horse. If you are a 'happy hacker' then some of the things mentioned by Siennamum are less important because performance is not uppermost in the mind.

My horse had the most awful feet when I bought him but thanks to a fabulous farrier his feet are now good. He has also had broken withers at some point in his past so has a slightly odd look about him but I have found, for what I do, it has no adverse effect on him or his soundness, infact he is teaching me to jump, go cross country and generally improving my confidence in leaps and bounds so his comformational faults have little bearing on us as a team and what we want to do together. And he is sound.

But I agree, if you are looking for serious competition then conformation is paramount.

 

[lordflynn]

oooh, good one! especially as I have such an upright horse with strange foreign conformation.

personally I try and go for overall picture and try not to pick ones with one leg shorter than the others

Am also interested in the fact that big horses (in height and width!) are so in demand and whether they really are better weight carriers than something smaller and more compact. sorry if thats hijacking

 

[burtie]

[ QUOTE ]
Does conformation have a role to play in soundness, if so why do you think this?

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion the only reason the rules on "good conformation" were created is because it leads to a longer more useful working life and therefore is fundemental to soundness.

 

[H's mum]

Of course conformation plays a role - if something is over at the knee - it will put more pressure on tendons - if something has weak hocks - it will struggle to engage - putting pressure on other areas - A sway back is weak - It's common sense - It annoys me when people breed from mares which have conformation issues - there are so many good mares about - why breed from something which could pass on bad genes?
Kate x

 

[eohippus]

conformation is an important consideration when buying or breeding horse. Although I also think that its affects will also be based on what you want to use the horse for in the long run. some conformation faults may not have any ill effect for some disciplines and yet can predispose a horse to a host of problems if used for others.
avoidance of kythosis or lordosis (for many riding disciplines) calf knees, bench knees and bucked knees, short or sloping pasterns, sickle or cow hocks, ( for jumping ) being straight behind or short or high humerous (if wanted for dressage) coon and butress foot or heredity flat feet (host of disciplines)
Although these predispose the horse to problems with soundness, flexibility, balance and strength, other consideration must be taken, ie, the ability of the rider and method of training, other excellent conformational aspects that may reduce the risk in other areas.
Working with the horses inherent ability and being prepared that the horse may not go as far as we would like or cope with the discipline we prefer is the forefront of consideration.
best regards
Dawn

 

[baybeejay01]

Yes, I think that conformation has a part to play in soundness but there are exceptions to the rule - even Seabiscuit didn't stay sound and injury shortened his racing caeer although he was bloody fast when he was!

There is no such thing as "perfect conformation" and it depends on what your discipline is as too what you can live with or forgive imo.

 

[H's mum]

[ QUOTE ]
for instance sea biscuit - so where do we get the notion that poor conformation = unsoundness?


[/ QUOTE ]
I was under the impression that Seabiscuit was plagued with lameness issues?

Kate x

 

[aran]

true he did have some unsoundness issues but no more than the average race horse - especially considering the amount of racing and the speeds he was doing etc. there is also nothing to say that it was his conformtion querks that resulted in the unsoundness.

 

[BBs]

Its an interesting one as there are always one or two horses who have terrible confirmation but always seem to stay sound! KingWilliam being one who had awful confirmation but never had a days unsoundness in his competition career!

Personally yes confirmation is of high importance when I am looking to purchase a horse!

Everyone seems to be after the big flashy moving horses - even when these have good confirmation - the movement in the end causes problems else where!

 

[Alibear]

I thought this was easy conformation problems mean the horse is likley to have issues from them , be they soudness issues or others.

Not every horse with a confromation default will suffer from it but the likelyhood of it happening is increased.

So you pays your money and you takes your chance. This time I lost.

 

[aran]

'if something is over at the knee - it will put more pressure on tendons - if something has weak hocks - it will struggle to engage - putting pressure on other areas - A sway back is weak - It's common sense'

thats what we would think - except take a horse that was born over at the knee and see if it is scientifically more likely to get joint problems than the rest of the equine population that are not over at the knee and you wont find any difference. cartilage, bone, tendons and ligaments are conditioned to their normal loading environment during development and maturation, therefore if the conformational defect was one that they were born with and did not progress then the tissues would have been conditioned for that making them capable of withstanding those differences. this would mean that the tissues are not under more/different loading but under what they are used to and conditioned for.
Unless a horse is seriously deformed, the deformity develops later in life (poor shoeing etc) or progresses you do not get a link between poor conformation and unsoundness, whereas you do get one between type of disapline and type of pathology (race horses and sore shines or dressage horses and suspensory injuries for instance). most horses with good conformation become unsound (it is as likely as one with poor conformation) and you can more likely predict the type of pathology with the usage of the horse rather than with a conformational fault.

 

[Alibear]

nope the horse thats got a conformation default and not been ridden may be ok with it but as soon as you add a riders weight and themands of work and the "deformed" limb will be more pronse to stress and strains.

Horse may be sounds for years and years and years but the strains will happen. Not evertime but they are more likely to happen. The number of people I know who have said well my horse has X and is fine only for it to develop problems with it in the end are vast.

You also have to look at the conformation problem and what you intend to do with the horse as the deciplines put different strains on different areas.

 

[burtie]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone seems to be after the big flashy moving horses - even when these have good confirmation - the movement in the end causes problems else where!

[/ QUOTE ]

I was dicussing this the other day with my friend and instructor and we were in agreement that actually too flashy movement must be such a hindrance to soundness and stress on the joints that we wouldn't want them. Yes, a nice floaty light and free movement but no more and that's just for pure Dressage. Mind you doubt we'll win any 4/5 year old classes with these horses, but might still be there campaigning at whatever level we get to at 15 or more!

 

[Alibear]

hyperextension always does come with a longterm soundness price tag whether it;s in humans or horses I'm afraid.

 

[aran]

' nope the horse thats got a conformation default and not been ridden may be ok with it but as soon as you add a riders weight and themands of work and the "deformed" limb will be more pronse to stress and strains. '

Scientifically that simply isn't true - it will be under as much increase in force as a limb which is fine (we are taking her of conformational fault and not deformity as they are different). for instance - cartilage in a joint is conditioned to its local environment so high loaded areas have cartilage adapted to those conditions, therefore if a limb is slightly different the loading pattern will be different across the joint and so the cartilage will have adapted it its particular environment. When you ride the joint will still be loaded in the same way - you dont change the way the joint or tendons work.

'Horse may be sounds for years and years and years but the strains will happen'
same for everyone - accumulation of stress and strain with age is not adjusted for as quickly therefore more likely to get pathological change - no more for a horse that dishes etc

'Not evertime but they are more likely to happen.'
there is absolutely no scientific evidence for the statement that it is more likely in a horse with a conformational defect.

there are millions of horses with unsoundness issues and the majority you cannot link to a conformational defect (unless it is a true deformity or the defect develops therefore creating a situation where the tissues are not adapted for the environment).
just one example - my beautiful horse - perfect hocks - not overridden as a younster - has crippling bone spavin - its probably in his genetics!

 

[seabiscuit]

'Conformation' is an interesting one becuase look how much horse can change through the correct work, food, care routine and correct shoeing.They can look completly different animals after a year of the right care and work.

For example, cow hocks will literally turn into straight hocks once a horse has straightened up behind. A jumpers bump, a roach back, an ewe neck can virtually dissapear with the correct long and low work in the school and up hills. A poor hoof pastern axis can be corrected with the right shoeing. Minor faults like these can all be easily changed.Look at Toytown as a youngster- a real ugly duckling- everything in the wrong place! Now he looks stunning and very correct.

Obviously major major faults have to be taken seriously- that is things like one turned in foot.

But quite honestly is good conformation EVER a good indication of future long term soundness?? How many horses are there that are statistically perfect that are cripples? And others that have conformation faults that have never had a days lameness in their lives?

 

[eohippus]

I would say that if it a conformation is fault due to the skeletal make up of the horse and not a weakness in muscle structure stature, due to not being muscled up, you can not change it no matter how you train. A true ewe neck is different to one that is ewe shaped because of the lack of muscle, a true roach back can be hidden slightly by correct top line muscles but will always be there, true cow hocks will not straighten, but the correct training of the muscles can help to support the skeletal structure.
gangly youngsters look odd because of their lack of muscles and so the stature of the horse can be improved through training. But true conformational faults cannot be changed completely.
just my opinion
regards
Dawn

 

[monstermunch]

Conformation is a very important consideration. however I would not write off a horse just because they had a conformational issue. What is "normal" for one horse is not for another and it is the same for humans.
Yes poor conformation will have an effect on the pressures exerted on your horses tendons and ligaments, there is no way that it can't. For example if a horses toe points outwards more than it should this will naturally put more stretch and pressure on the inside of the fooot and inside tendons and ligaments etc.
This doesn't neceesarily make them lame but again you then have to consider what the horse would be used for.
Some of the top british ahletes (humans) have major biomechanical (conformatiom) issue and still win medals and compete to a high level as do british horses.
With minor conformational issues generally a horse will adapt making him no less sound than your next horse!

 

[Tempi]

my mare is croup high, her front canons are shorter than her hind by a good couple of inchs. Otherwise shes perfect

I personally would now look for conformation in a horse before pedigree - if its got the right conformation pretty much anything (within reason) can be trained to a certain level. Obviously good breeding plays a part too but a lot can be achieved with a well put together horse.

I would never ever buy a croup high horse again as i know the downfalls of having one.

 

[claire1976]

My 14 yr old TB mare has a slight pigeon toe and it really hasn't affected her in any way. Both her parents were top eventers and she had 2 foals with perfect conformation so it shows that good breeding doesnt always have any effect either way on conformation. Although I would agree it's far better to use sound/good conformation horses for breeding it doesn't guarantee a perfect outcome. My farrier ofsets her shoe so it helps her to balance her movements nicely. Bearing in mind she's had this fault from birth she doesn't know any different and therefore has learned to adapt and carry herself comfortably. She has never had any lameness issues from that problem and I've had her 6 years now. I am considering putting her in foal again next year and like before I will use something medium to heavyweight to breed out the slight conformation defect. Interestingly enough despite the slight defect she is otherwise a stunning looking and stunning natured horse and as a result was placed first in our local show last year.
There are some conformation problems I would avoid though such as excessive cow hocks and roach backs as in my experience as weight bearing joints its very hard to compensate long term for these problems.

 

[puddicat]

Yes poor conformation will have an effect on the pressures exerted on your horses tendons and ligaments, there is no way that it can't.

Oooooooo I'm afraid there's lots of ways it can't. There's relatively few things you can do to a leg that alter the stress in tendons.

For example if a horses toe points outwards more than it should this will naturally put more stretch and pressure on the inside of the fooot and inside tendons and ligaments etc.

Not necessarily. Think, for example if the deviation occured higher up the limb. And thats the problem with trying to link what you see with what the consequences are. Often it's not what you think.

I think conformation becomes an issue if you're going to compete at a high level. Even then the link is a bit noisy. I suspect the main reason for this is the restricted nature of the neddy gene pool. Even after domestication the selection criteria would still have been speed, soundness, endurance (ie similar to natural selection) so horses tend to look very like horses with little real variation compared with doggies. Given this you'd tend to expect the scope for conformational characteristics to seriously compromise performance, and the probability of them occuring to be low. Same seems to be true for wild things with hooves like caribou and the stripey things that look like horses.

 

[Oaksflight]

I'd never buy a horse with major conformation problems, however I would consider one with slight problems, purely because they could be corrected with the right exercise/corrective shoeing etc. People from round here seem to be very uneducated when it comes to conformation, constantly wanting to breed from horribley put together horses, split up behind, long in the back, and with sickle-shaped hocks. And yet they wonder why their horse always seems to be unsound?

 

[samsaccount]

I have a mixed opinion about conformation to be honest. for instance i was on a riding school/dealing yard for the past two years and not a single horse there had what i would class as good conformation, the majority of them looked like 3 horses put together, neck and head of a lager horse, middle of a pony and a back side of a cross between the two. they seriously were all mismatched, cow/sickle hocks/base narrow/pidgeon toed/etc etc etc, they all had a number of conformation defalts but were sound 99% of the time and the majority of they time if any were lame it was due to an incident in the field (40 horses or so tunred out at the same time)......and due to this i woudln't turn my nose up at a horse with confomation defaults (unless they are major) as long as they can cope with what you ask them to do and work in ease then it should be fine. after all the horses muscles and joints have been designed and matued in order to cope with that particular deformity and shoudlnt cause any more stress on the tendons as a horse who has better confromation etc....but on the other hand i would prefer to buy a horse with better confromation and certainly woudln't breed from a horse with bad conformation. i personally do not see the point in breeding from a horse with bad conformation as the majority of the time the foal will also inherit the defaults, passing them on to their foals and so on and so forth. the quality of foals will just decrease and carryon decreasing if people carry on breeding from horses with bad conformation. at that yard i mentioned previously they had a stallion they continously bred from, he had nevicular, cow and sickle hocks, long back, slightly croup high, very base narrow in front, he really was an ugly ducking and all his foals inherited some of his faults. if you can breed a horse with good conformation aswell as a good temprement then do it and not settle for second best......my opinions

 

[not_with_it]

You take a gamble buying any horse but just because a horse has bad conformation doesnt mean he is more likely to have problems than a horse with better conformation.
Conformation can make a horses work easier. For example a horse with a long back will have to work much harder to track up than a horse who is short coupled. A horse who is built uphill will find it easier to take weight back than a horse that is on the forehand, its more about temperament and if the horse is willing to work for you. Its the same with humans, we all have our conformation problems but it doesnt stop us from doing the things we want to do.

Some conformation faults can be improved with work, others with careful management arent such a big problem.

 

[burtie]

I've only delibrately bought 1 horse with poor front leg conformation, it was a risk and was reflected in the price,. She was brill and went on to compete successfully at affiliated Novice dressage, the schooling helped her badly turned in front feet.

But, about 2 years after I got her at age 10 she started to go lame on hard ground, barely noticable and only when ground was very hard. I managed it for another 18 months with Devils claw and watching were I rode, but it then started to get worse and develope into more noticable lameness. I suspected Navicular so we had xrays, sadly she did have navlcular but worse a crumbling sesamoid on the worst turned side, right where the turned fetlock would have put a lot of extra wear and tear. In her case prognosis from the op was guaurded, only a 50% chance of return to work at best with a high likely re-occurance within a few years and this after a year of re-habilition. Added to this we didn't know how much the Navicular effected her as this wouldn't show whilst she had the worse problem. I decided against the op and the vets were in agreement in her case. She was PTS 6 months later as the situation worsened at the start of her 12 year

.
I did not regret buying her one bit, but in this case conformation clearly paid a large part in what happened and her soundness.

 

[monstermunch]

For example if a horses toe points outwards more than it should this will naturally put more stretch and pressure on the inside of the fooot and inside tendons and ligaments etc.

Not necessarily. Think, for example if the deviation occured higher up the limb. And thats the problem with trying to link what you see with what the consequences are. Often it's not what you think.

Yes this was kind a sloppy of me I was generalising too much. It could indeed depend on where the conformation problem comes from as it could easily be higher up and not the foot itself. It was a quick example and only meant as such.