Contact issues with horse- also in NL. Advice needed before we scream!

[charlie76]

If anyone can offer any advice on my other halfs horse it would be greatfully appreciated. He has a 7 yr old hanovarian horse who is a super mover with very big paces. We have had him for about 6 months and he has always found canter difficult and seems to have issues with accepting a contact.
The canter gets to big (as does the trot sometimes) he gets unbalanced and runs through the hand. If you attempt to correct this he throws his head up and stops. Once he has done this in canter it continues on and off in the trot as well.
He is perfect on the lunge with or without side reins- balanced and in rythym. He is also perfect out hacking - walk, trot and canter. His jumping is good and for some wierd reason he has never done it at a show.Don;t get me wrong, the test is far from perfect but in 5 tests he has been 1st, 2nd twice and 2 3rds so not bad with over 67% but he would gain more but the canter is not good enough.
We also know he had similar issues before we bought him but felt we could work through and make progress which we have to some extent but its very frustrating.
We have had the saddle checked, teeth done by vet and dentist and had the chiropractor. They found no problems so I got the vet to give him an MOT. He felt he was sore in the sacroiliac area so we have had this treated- vet said we should have improvement if this is the issue, we have no improvement.
I believe it is an evasion , if you ask him to carry 'himself' he either pulls you forward and runs on his forehand or he becomes too light in front, feels like he pulls the bit back in his mouth, slams his head up and stops or runs backwards.
We have tried giving him a kick and sending him forward but this makes him run on again with his head stuck up in the air and no control so you have to pull him up and he slams his head up again- vicious circle springs to mind!
We have been working him in a very slow trot to enable him to find his own balance- this was good for a week but now he has started being naughty again.


He also has a tendancy to run into the canter rather than jump into the canter and swings his quaters out as you make the transtion.

I do not believe it is a rider issue as we have tried several different riders, one of which produced a horse for the Olympics so you would hope she could half ride! and he did it with her as well.

When he is not having a paddy he is better but still not to a consistant contact.

We have tried the following bits:
Nathe Snaffle straight bar with loose ring- he leans on this and pulls down
Hard rubber straight bar snaffle- as above
French link metal- eggbut and loose ring- he drops behind it and throws his head up
Fulmer pinchless, fulmer french link, Loose ring snaffle, Loose ring french link, Eggbut snaffle, hanging cheek snaffle, pinchless french link, straight bar metal eggbutt, 3 ring gag- jointed and straight bar happy mouth and metal, Rubber Loose ring, KK bit, Nueue Schule training bit- all of which he has done the above in!
We then tried a hackamore to elimate the mouth- he was ok for 2 or 3 days then did the head throwing thing.

Help!

Just to add, this horse is my other halfs, not mine!

 

[CracklinRosie]

What about a different type of bitless, hackamore's can be as harsh as any bit.

Side pulls are much kinder but I'm no expert on them!

On a completely seperate note, have you checked his ears????

 

[charlie76]

Thanks for the advice. Everything has been checked. He was alos only vetted a few months ago with full hock and feet x rays. We have also x rayed him for kissing spine.

we have tried various types of bitless bridle and have also ridden him bare back( not nice on a big bouncy high withered warmblood)
We really need him to accept the contact as he has been bought to event.

 

[CracklinRosie]

Just had another thought, maybe it's his head piece?????

 

[charlie76]

Nope- tried different bridles- frustrating eh!?

 

[CracklinRosie]

Yes, damned annoying!

I'm just restarting one of mine and having problems biting at the mo, the one she used to go well in she now doesn't like!

Damned horses!

Will keep thinking!!!

 

[flyingfeet]

Hackamores are not allowed in dressage, so not much point going down that path.

Have you tried a bit that gives more space for the tonuge like a conrad, verbindend or team up?

The head up could be caused by imbalance, usually I would say its generally the inside rein to blame, but if you've had a pro on it won't be that.

Failing everything and, obviously with back and teeth checked. I would carefully use draw reins to teach him to go along in a correct outline. You may only need to use for a few sessions, but should be enough to break the habit (you must keep sending him forward though).

 

[AandK]

one thought i have had is maybe you are not giving him enough time to settle into one type of bit.? you have only had him 6 months and he is still young (ish!) for a WB and you have tried rather a lot of bits on him. perhaps pick the one he is better in out of the bunch and give him a while to get used to it and also to get used to your OH.!
it sounds like he is just finding it hard to carry himself (esp as you say the movement is big) and his way of getting out of it is to have a paddy..
i personally would go with the time, patience and perserverance option.!
out of interest, what has the person who produced the Olympic horse think about the situation.?

 

[Skhosu]

I would just be aware of blaming the horse, thinking he's doing it to annoy you, with a 'sensitive' horse I know its very easy to get frustrated.
Mine throws his head into canter and its a case of really having him on the aids, nearly overbent to begin with so that he doesn't get the oppurtunity and it also gives you the oppurtunity to ensure he is balanced. It sounds like an out of balance thing.
If he is perfect with/without side reins sounds like it's when a rider gets on, is the saddle good?

 

[AandK]

was that a reply to my post or the OP.?

 

[Skhosu]

OP sorry

 

[K27]

Hi

My 8 year old used to be exactly like this - he is very big moving, 17.2hh- I used to have a top dressage rider ride him just to help me keep him in check when he was 5 yrs !- It's a balance issue and also with my horse it was to do with him accepting my leg contact, once he accepted the leg and forward aids, he accepted the hand. My horse used to be very sharp because at first he had problems with accepting and understanding the leg contact and would try and make me move my position slightly on my right side especially in left canter- it didnt take long to resolve, a couple of sessions. And I used to really, if anything sit very very slightly behind the canter movement so he couldn't pull me forwards. As you have done, we kept him forward but in a slower trot so that he couldnt run thru the forehand and shoulder. We also did loads of transitions and kept everything calm and simple.

Also , although it not textbook, we schooled him in a happy mouth 3 ring dutch gag on the 2nd ring, and he loves this bit- if he did come slightly behind the contact, we would just use more leg to push him out and give him more room in front, and when he was soft I would be soft and just go with the horse. Now I dont need to school him in this bit, he's just in a Sprenger Ultra and has the happy mouth for hacking.

Where are you based? - what treatment did your horse have for the back problem? did you have it injected?

Gd luck and hope he makes an improvement soon

 

[GermanyJo]

I would be inclined to ask the vet if there is a chance that you could put the horse on a course of bute for maybe 3-4 weeks, see if there is any difference. If there is and when you stop giving the bute the problem comes back you know there is a problem somewhere... if it makes no difference at all, then you can be a bit more certain that this is a schooling issue.
If you do go down that route, make sure you do a proper course .. so you give the initial loading doses.

 

[GermanyJo]

oh... and remember, even if he is some pain, it may take a week or so for him to realise something does not hurt so you would not expect him to suddenly be much better from one day to the next ... if you think there is an improvement , the biggest indicator is when you take him off it.

 

[kanter]

I have not read all the replies so apologies if repeating. If definitely all physical / bitting isssues addressed and you are convinced this is a schooling issue, then I would think it is probably related to straightness (or lack of). If you have too much inside bend, which easily happens in the canter, then the horse will drift on to the outside shoulder. If the rider then takes the inside rein, and it's very hard not to do this, then the horse will become blocked and then you get the resistance. This is actually quite common in big moving horses, they run through the rein then get to the point when they feel 'trapped' . I would forget the canter for a few sessions and work on the trot. Work on the inside track , with the horse completely straight, almost counter flexed. Try and encourage him to take the rein forwards. When riding turns, corners, circles, actively ride the outside of the horse, the more you can get the horse into the outside rein, the less blocked it will feel. Then the same in canter, focus on keeping the neck straight and the horse on the outside aids. I would put a standing martingale on too, not tight but just to act if his head gets above the angle of control. Hope this helps

 

[holdontight]

Hiya,
Alot of the time big WB types take until they are 7 or 8 before they stop growing and can cope with getting used to their size and where their feet are etc. The last 6 months you have had him are just the months where IMO young horses grow the most rapidly, while the grass is growing.
Just a thought (Im not a qualified expert or vet) but if he is fine out hacking it doesnt really sound like he has a problem with a bit or tack or physical - sounds like it may be more in his head?????
Sometimes they cant cope with the pressure of schooling so react in any way they can - has he had a bad experience in a school? - so just an idea (again Im not an expert) but why dont you try hacking out and finding a field to do a few circles in even if the other person (u?) that hacks out with him even circling next to him - parallel? and school him that way for a bit and not putting him in a school for a while?
It might just keep him calm and un-pressurised until he finds his own balance - IME you cant rush horses like this but its worth the wait in the end!
Im sure you will be fine
good luck