Contradicting advice from two instructors

[shadowboy]

I have a lovely gelding who's just turned four and has been in light work since feb. He has a tendency to rush his trot and pull me down to balance or tuck his chin into his chest. He's never above the bridle but can be really behind it.

I had a lesson with a lovely lady who is based with Carl Hester and she rides to Grand Prix and tried to get me to slow the trot and flick him up with my reins if he started to back off and tuck up into his chest. I found it made him a bit backwards to ride but after a couple of sessions he stopped burying his head.
I then took him out to abbey dressage for his first ever outing just for a lesson and I was told the exact opposite- kick him on and get him faster and to drop my hands as his head carriage was too high for his age! I enjoyed both lessons and he behaved well in both- during the second instructors lesson she felt he needed a fixed cheek (he's currently in a fulmer lozenge but the mouthpiece can slide up and down a little on the cheek piece) as he fiddled with the bit a lot and she thinks it will encourage him to take the bit down and out and stretch over his back. I'm worried he will revert back to leaning. I know it's all early days yet but I want to get the foundations right and need to pick an instructor but not sure who's advice appears the most 'correct'?

 

[ihatework]

There are many roads to Rome -

But I have personally found that many young horse training issues stem from balance.

My first response would be to slow it all down and to correct him when he drops behind.
Give this a chance to work as it won't be an overnight thing.

I have a mare competing medium and training higher - I have to do my first 10 minutes of warm up very under powered and dribbling around - working on straightening and submission. I've had a couple of one off training sessions with instructors who just don't get her and want forwards from the outset. It doesn't always work.

 

[JillA]

Decide which one is most working on his balance. He is very young and most likely well on his forehand, forget his head and work on shifting his balance back and engaging his hind legs more under him. Ask both instructors how that advice fits in with working on a young horse's balance - I don't think encouraging him to rush would do that?

 

[be positive]

A tricky one, I don't like the idea of flicking the reins on a young horse but do prefer to slow everything down so they have time to find their own balance, kicking on and keeping the hand low may make him tense through his back and inclined to rush rather than use himself properly. I gave someone a lesson yesterday on a young horse that rushes and all we did was slow everything down so she could relax and soften not worrying about where the head was, as long as she was fairly straight, she soon found her balance, got onto a better, slower rhythm and did start to carry herself, so I would be inclined to go with the slowly softly route to avoid other issues developing through rushing as long as they are thinking forward.
He was probably fiddling with the bit due to tension from being pushed out of balance, go with your gut instinct as to who you use but you certainly cannot go to both regularly.

 

[shadowboy]

Yes I need to pick so I don't confuse him but not sure which method is the more correct in the sense that it is building the foundations solidly so I can build on them over the years. He is unbalanced and is like a worm. I like the idea of slowing all down to let him balance himself but I found flicking the reins very difficult to master because timing was crucial. Although we are not worried about what the head is doing especially- it was just we had to sort the tucking the head into the chest issue.

The lesson at abbey certainly got him more forward and he did use his back end but I felt it was all a bit out of pace. I don't know what to do for the best. Both instructors can travel to me and are both. £45 for 45 min so not cheap so I can't afford to get this wrong financially either! (As well as in the horse's interests)

 

[ihatework]

I would start with slowing it down. Don't 'flick the reins' but do try and encourage the nose forwards, hopefully you will find the tucked in starts to improve once the balance improves.
If he is really sitting behind vertical then some lateral flexion - soften and offer forwards & down. Plus plenty of transitions.
This isn't about him being an I reactive snail. You can slow the tempo whilst still expecting response to aids so don't get confused there.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Try a third instructor (good one).
Neither of the current two may be best for you and your horse. On the other hand, third instructor may agree with one of the first two which gives you more direction.

 

[hobo]

Try a third instructor (good one).
Neither of the current two may be best for you and your horse. On the other hand, third instructor may agree with one of the first two which gives you more direction.

This my youngster has been difficult and one much trusted instructor pushed me out of my comfort zone, I tried another who got my confidence back but the horse started think backwards. I worked quietly on my own using bits from both instructors and also a friend helped me the other day who was in the middle of the other two. So just take your time you will find the right one for you and horse.

 

[Cortez]

Which instructor has produced/produces the best trained horses? I personally don't like the "Forwards at all costs!" type of advice, it just plain doesn't work with most horses that arn't super duper movers (so most horses, then). Slowing down helps with those that have poor balance. Low hands don't help with anything.

 

[Goldenstar]

Did the trainer use the term flick ? Is that how she expressed what she wanted you to do ?
Like Cortez I have learned that forward at all costs just leaves you with a horse stuck on it's forehand particularly if they don't have natural uphill movement .
A trainer once told me you can't put in more impulsion the the horse balance will allow , I try to keep that in my head when I work .

 

[shadowboy]

Yes flick the reins was exactly the term. It does work but only I'm I catch him quickly and it made him very backwards the following session I think he was a bit worried about the contact which was lost every time I 'flicked' Arg I might have to try another instructor to see what they say? I have to say in both sessions the spectators said he improved

 

[alainax]

Just in regards to the bit, I have found horses who tend to duck BTV tend to be better suited to a more still mouth piece. The jangly double jointed or sliding cheeks are too fiddly in the mouth and don't help with the issue. A nice still eggbut snaffle made a huge difference in my boy. My instructor likened it to holding a small childs hand. To keep it calm and steady so they can feel comfortable in seeking the contact.

 

[sportsmansB]

I was about to suggest that if you do for the slow and steady one which is making him tuck back you may need a different bit as you are almost trying to get him to seek/lean towards it (and hoping for the middle ground!) - something steadier could help. We almost tend to overlook the old plain eggbut snaffles now but sometimes they are just the ticket for one a bit behind!!

 

[wkiwi]

Agree with others about an eggbutt. I am currently reschooling two horses for someone - one was young and unable to balance; she had been through the 'power up at all costs' but just didn't have the balance to cope (still growing) so someone tied her head down and she ended up very stressed and throwing herself about in canter transitions. Second was a forward going horse that had also had head tied down and learnt to tuck nose into chest to avoid bit contact, and rider after buying this had been told the 'flick rein' type thing. But i agree with you that they need to be slow (not lazy) to develop their balance and that giving the reins when you 'flick' drops the contact anyway. Both now working well (weeks) just by taking a light consistent contact then riding to it, working them at slow rhythmical tempo, and above all teaching them to stretch down at the walk when asked (must keep outside rein contact when they do this i.e. don't just chuck the reins away as it doesn't fix a horse that won't take a contact). I wouldn't now use a trainer that can't teach a horse to stretch properly, and one that suited my horse, so agree with looking at a third trainer. Note that top trainers are highly successful training their own horses in their own method (as with post above, more than one road to Rome), but they are not always good with other peoples youngsters as they are not doing the riding. If you read Podhajsky's books about the Spanish Riding School, they don't let the really good riders on to the young horses as the riders ask too much for their age/training level, so the young horses are paired with riders that know and ask less (probably still better riders than most of though).
good luck with your decision, but i think that the fact that you were not entirely happy with either instructor means that neither is the one for you.

 

[glamourpuss]

Have you told the first instructor about how the 'flick' of the reins makes him & how his response makes you uncomfortable.
Providing feedback to her might mean she has another tool in her box to try that might work for him better.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would defiantly have another session with trainer one .
One lesson is a bit tight to fully absorb a change of system and you could use a second lesson to ask more questions and try to understand the system she using better .
It's very hard to ride and take in the theory do what someone wants when your trying to do it for the first time .
Without seeing the horse it's difficult to advise further .
I would also think about tweaking the bitting and perhaps talking to a bitting consultant is a good idea .
I would also ask the trainer what she thinks about the bitting .

 

[smja]

Rushing a young horse onwards will only encourage him to go BTV. Slow everything down. You need balance and relaxation before asking for more impulsion and power, otherwise you get a horse with a back like a tight drum. Use baby lateral movements to engage the hindquarters. As for bits, I'm a big fan of a fixed ring for getting them to take a contact forwards.

I'd go for instructor number 1, or A N Other - you need to get on well with them to get the best results, and they need to be able to explain WHY they're asking you to do something.

 

[oldie48]

I think rushing any horse that hasn't found it's balance is asking for trouble. i took on an older horse and found that he managed his big paces by rushing his downward trans to keep his balance, holding in the poll and balancing on the bit. We've spent a year slowing everything down, giving him the confidence to find his balance without leaning on the bit (changed from an eggbut to a loose ring half way through the year) and encouraging him to relax completely through his neck and use his back correctly. This has been done working with a trainer whom I trust completely who believes if you have the relaxation and balance then you can add the power later. interestingly, like OP I've had lessons with other well respected trainers and they have said I need to push the horse forward more into the contact to get him through, I'm happy to do this now as he has the balance to cope but IMHO (and i'm no expert) he still does better work when he's relaxed in his poll and soft in his back before I ask for more. impulsion

Rushing a young horse onwards will only encourage him to go BTV. Slow everything down. You need balance and relaxation before asking for more impulsion and power, otherwise you get a horse with a back like a tight drum. Use baby lateral movements to engage the hindquarters. As for bits, I'm a big fan of a fixed ring for getting them to take a contact forwards.

I'd go for instructor number 1, or A N Other - you need to get on well with them to get the best results, and they need to be able to explain WHY they're asking you to do something.

 

[GinaGeo]

I'm no trainer and can only repeat the advice I followed. When my horse was young, he liked to bury himself deep. We used an upward lift of the hand just change the action of the bit a touch, before returning them to normal when he picked himself up again. Kind of like your first instructor's 'flick' but more subtle? Coupled with slowing everything down and asking him to engage his hocks it's worked beautifully and is a problem we rarely encounter now. He's got a very sensitive mouth and would be the first to panic if it worried him. I know if I just put more leg on I'd just have a rushing, downhill horse to contend with. He needed to learn to shift his weight back.

 

[tristar]

if it was my horse I would forget schooling seriously and ride forwards and steady, allowing the horse to place his head where he feels comfortable and following the contact to reassure him, lots of hacking on straight lines, when he lofts up his muscles all over he will want to reach forwards and take the contact, in other words put himself on the bit, probably I would expect to feel this on a hack trotting in a good trot, not too fast but balanced and mini moments of impulsion are offered, after perhaps 6 to eight weeks, just now and again, I would not force it, it needs to come when the horse is well warmed up and everything is swinging nicely and the back is loosened, the horse will come to the bit correctly and straight because both hinds are working, its all patience and belief in the fact that that it will happen when the horse is ready, the fact that the horse is behind the tells me too much hand is being used, I would not school any 4 year old without going through this process and only when its really ready, 4 is very very young to me, no need to rush.