Control probs XC - what bit/noseband would you use?

[sfward]

Following on from my last post about Aske PN, I'm a bit worried about how strong Missie is getting XC. She's always been strong but on Sunday she was just mental! Usually she comes back before a fence even though she does love to tank off with me between them, but this weekend she was fighting me in front of the fences and I was really struggling to get her back. We also had rather dodgy steering

Her tendency is to get quite downhill and on her forehand, so I've been riding her XC in a cheltenham gag with 2 reins to get her head up, with a grackle noseband, which has been fine so far - until Sunday! I'm conscious I don't want to get stuck in a cycle of using stronger and stronger bits, and I'm definitely going to have to go back to basics at home with some schooling, but are there any combinations of bits/nosebands that might be more effective than what I'm currently using (without necessarily being stronger)?
Someone suggested a combination noseband, which sounds interesting - are these just for use with a snaffle? And if so are they really that effective for a strong horse that you could downgrade to a snaffle with one? My other options would be a Waterford (not keen on them though) or a Myler combination bit. I've never had a horse this strong before, so I'm a bit lost for ideas... Any suggestions/recommendations appreciated!
thanks!

 

[DollyPentreath]

I was using a continental gag on mine as he has a tendency to fall on the forehand when he gets tired xc. When he got too strong in that I started using an american gag (All with 2 reins) and I must admit my brakes and steering are now perfect. I'll probably go back to a continental for the start of the season though, he only needs a stronger bit when he gets into the swing of things!

 

[LEC]

I think waterfords are fine - I would suggest either a Cherry Roller Gag or a a waterford gag. Both are designed to back the horse off the bit.

 

[sfward]

Yikes so many options!! Annoyingly only last week I ordered a Nelson gag for her as the running gag seemed to be working well and i thought the cheeks might give me some help with steering. So i guess the best thing might be to stick with that until after Bishop Burton, and then if still having problems do some experimenting over the winter. A waterford nelson gag might be interesting to try, as would a Myler combination.
Any more suggestions/comments welcome though!!

 

[lucym]

i had a very strong horse and used myler combionation, which worked a treat, and also a hanging snaffle with kineton- both wrked just as well, and towards the end i used the sanffle/kinetin combo, as she began to ignore the myler- they are quite severe and i think she learnt her lesson, and just switched off to it, and learnt to respect the softer option.
to make them less severe i put sheepskin on the nose pieces, and they worked, and she was vvv strong- give it a go...

 

[kerilli]

something with a waterford mouthpiece is a good start.
i don't know what size course you're taking her round, or how many she's done, but they can get to a point where they need to go to the next stage up to have fences that will back them off a bit again. i've had totally rideable horses get ridiculous around small courses, and then be good as gold around a bigger course. just a thought, although obviously you want to be in control, coming to bigger fences!

 

[sfward]

oh ok thanks - did you mean you added sheepskin to the nose piece of the myler? would you recommend trying the kineton/snaffle combo or the myler first?

 

[sfward]

Yes I agree, which is maybe why she was good around Allerton as it's quite big and bold. She's at PN at the moment, only done 2 though, and tbh I don't feel she's at all ready for novice yet, apart from anything else our steering isn't good enough yet to cope with the increased accuracy tests you get at novice, and like you say I think a bit more control would be advisable for bigger fences lol!

 

[lucym]

yeah added sheepskin to the rawhide nosepiece, as it is very hard and unforgiving. had to do some sewing and velcro-ing!!!!

i used the myler 1st- used to do everything in it, ride out, school, compete, and once she started to listen to me i then used the softer snaffle/kinton combo, which she went really well in. the myler will make a great difference at 1st, well it did for me, and then it sort of becomes redundant as she didnt need it, adn had learnt some respect. (she was 11 when i got her, and had never been really schooled so was a bit of a nutcase!)
brought it out for competitions, but she would then ignore it, sort of in a 'get that off me, i listen to you now, this is too strong' type thingy!!!
start with the myler, adn then you should be able to intergrate in the snaffle/kineton, and hopefully, with the 2 options you should get some control!!!

 

[kerilli]

i tried a horse in a myler combination bit recently, and was very impressed with the control it gave, without making the horse fight or resent it at all... because it has an effect on so many different places at once, unlike a snaffle, say.

 

[sfward]

ok great, I will do some experimenting at the end of the season then

btw, what exactly is the difference between a kineton and a combination noseband in terms of strength, action and what they can be used with?

 

[lucym]

not really sure, the kineton works directly on the front of the nose,and i used it with a hanging snaffle, so got some poll action too.
the combination i think works more like a grackle, and when the horse opens his mouth to pull, pressure is applied to the front and back of the nose, i would say the combination effects a larger area, so is maybe stronger, but have never used it. do you mean combination noseband as part of the myler, or the actual separate combination noseband? confusing !!!
with the myler, when you pull on the reins you get poll pressure as the bit has a higher ring- slightly gag like- nose presure, and curb pressure and it has an intergrated leather curb. all works together to great affect!!!

 

[sfward]

No, meant actual separate combination noseband. you're right, it is very confusing! Just trying to work out what the point of using a combination noseband would be as opposed to say a myler, and whether you can only use combination nosebands with a snaffle or with a gag too - thereby sort of creating your own myler combination! i'm sure i saw someone at aske using a combination noseband with a running gag...?!
oh help!!!

 

[lucym]

did just look it up on internet, and read somwhere that combination noseband should only be used with snaffle, or else with a gag it would be way to severe...?!?!?!?! i really dont know, never had any experience with it...didnt mary king always use combo noseband, with more than a snaffle? i think...with CAC

 

[Ferdinase514]

I think i posted on your last post, but am another vote for the Myler Combination. As Kerilli says, you dont really have to apply it much to get the horse back and they tend not to fight it as much.

 

[Tangaroo]

I tried a combination noseband on one of my boys. He absolutely hated it! It is more severe than a grakle and stops them opening their mouth and crossing their jaw. My boy refused to go forward in it and was so upset by it i had to retire from the SJ comp. I still havent found the answer to his bitting. I have a similar problem to you, a pelham works but he still leans on it and he hates anything severe.

 

[smerls]

Another vote for the myler. I had a shockingly strong horse that came to me after 2 seasons with a big heavy man. I couldnt hold one side of it or steer! I used the short shank myler with added sheepskin over the nose piece and it utterly transformed the horse.
I was quite skeptical of them- thought they were ' the latest trend ' at the time- but it completely transformed this horse. ( I had gone through every other option first- I was determined not to use a myler- really set against them - but was pleasantly suprised)

 

[sfward]

hmm, lots of votes for the myler! looks like i'll have to give it a try. Missie's quite fussy, the cheltenham gag is the only thing stronger than a snaffle I've tried so far that she will accept - i've tried her in a 3 ring gag and a pelham and in both she got really wound up and basically just stopped listening completely and was simply running through my hand; felt horrendous! so i think it will be a case of she'll either love the myler or absolutely hate it...

 

[DollyPentreath]

Donadea, I find this site really useful when explaining/researching bit actions. Just keep clicking right, (for AGES!) and you'll get info on bits and nosebands, including a combination/lever noseband. There's helpful diagrams and stuff too.

Incidently Peachesandcream, I know I've said this before (and tend to bang on about bitting..), but a hanging cheek snaffle exerts no poll pressure.

 

[sfward]

Thanks Shaab, very interesting, in particular comments on kineton nosebands (largely positive) and dutch gags (absolutely slating them!!)

 

[DollyPentreath]

Yeah, I tend to ignore some of the comments and make my own judgements (as an avid gag user!!) but I find the descriptions and diagrams explaining the actions really useful.

 

[sfward]

yes they are. some of it's very good at making you paranoid - like the comments about the mylers being too thin/sharp for riding conventional dressage with a contact, and the ring hooks turning them into a gag...! makes you want to go straight home and change the bit immediately!!!

 

[DollyPentreath]

Too true, don't feel like a cruel mummy!!

At the end of the day, most horses will soon let you know if they're unhappy with a bit. And I think it's far safer to use a gag or other strong bit than to have my horse towing me round an xc course with his shoulders; on his forehand, nose near the floor!!

 

[kerilli]

smerls is right, and i felt exactly the same about them. the mare i tried it with was very sensitive, but didn't mind it at all. the noseband had lots of extra padding (vetwrap) and it was short-shank with the comfort mouthpiece.

 

[kerilli]

re: "like the comments about the mylers being too thin/sharp for riding conventional dressage with a contact"

donadea, don't forget that it wasn't so long ago that a big fat eggbutt snaffle was thought to be the kindest bit of all, because of the large surface area, until people started thinking of taking the size of the horse's mouth and tongue into account, and realised that a thinner bit was actually far more comfortable for many horses.

trial and error and listening to what your horse is trying to tell you, i think.

personally, i'd rather have a horse i can get back easily and gently in a myler combo, say, than one i have to haul the head off in a snaffle! and as for the damage people do hauling on vulcanite pelhams...

 

[sfward]

very true, my problem is the more I read up on stuff the less I trust my own judgement!!! I think about things far too much and as a consequence get confused. but i suppose that is better than not bothering to educate yourself!

quite agree it's better to use a stronger bit lightly than haul away on a snaffle, don't understand the snobby attitude that if you can't ride a horse XC in a snaffle you must be useless - depends on the horse surely?!?!

 

[tigers_eye]

I think that in view of your horse's age (5 unless I'm mistaken), it would definately be worth doing some xc schooling without the jumps. I find very few babies know how to canter around a field with undulations when they have a rider on - they need teaching it like any other exercise! You don't have to go flat out, you can start by playing with trot - canter - trot transitions, puitting in some turns and some straight bits (making sure the horse is working equally into a contact you're happy with), then add in some lengthening and shortening within the canter. Until they will do all this happily I think it's a bit hit and miss whether they'll go round a whole xc course nicely! Instead of being totally focussed on getting round with as few penalties as possible (which I know is so hard at BE when we've paid all that money to enter), take the time to school her round - if she's being rude and tanking pull her up, make her halt, rein-back, anything to make her think, wait, and listen to you. I also think you definately have the right idea using two reins - how about using a double bridle? Showing people happily put them in 4 year old's mouths, and you don't often see one of them pulling too much. As long as you introduce the curb gently at home I don't see a problem with them.

 

[sfward]

thanks tigers_eye, i've been doing quite a bit of that at home, apart from being a bit wobbly and veering off line occasionally she's actually ok, it's only when we start putting fences in the way that she starts getting really carried away. i always pull her up after a fence at home as what she would like to do is land and set off, but obviously at events she forgets all about all that!
one of the things i'll miss when i move yards on saturday is the nice hilly stubble fields which will be replaced by lanes and verges unfortunately so cantering and hills will be somewhat limited

 

[wallyevent]

My horse went happily last season in a waterford and flash nose band but at his first event this year pulled my arms out of their sockets! (he decided he knows what he's doing and its all too much fun now!!) I just couldn't get his head up to steady him at all, quite scary!!
After fiddling around I have settled on the waterford and a combination noseband. He goes so well in the noseband I now use it showjumping too and he has jumped clear every time out since, when before he would have at least one or two down!!
Some horses do react badly to them but its certainly worth a try.

 

[MagicMelon]

I recommend a Myler Combination. You can get it with long or short shanks. Probably best to try both before buying if you can. Worked well on a horse I used to have who hated pelham-action bits. He went ok in a Waterford too, but for proper XC I used the Combination - he seemed to prefer the action.