Cooked linseed : linseed oil and youngsters

BigYellowHorse

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Does anyone know the ratio of oil to the cooked linseed?

Recently swapped from the oil but also noticed that the cooked is 23% protein compared to 0% of the oil. Most of my horses are youngsters and I dont generally feed them anything over 14%protein, do people think I'm better off keeping to the oil, no matter how mucky it is!!
Thanks! !
 

tallyho!

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Don't worry too much about protein content. Excess is always excreted and it's not as if you are feeding the youngster on a diet that consists solely on linseed.

My youngster gets half a coffee mug a day now she is out at grass mixed in with other fibrous foodstuffs.

The oil is definitely inferior compared to the fullfat version.
 

windand rain

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You cant over feed protein unless a horse has a compromised liver or kidneys, protein can be transformed in the body into all sorts of good things which youngsters particularly need to grow properly what they dont need is sugar or starch
 

Tnavas

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You cant over feed protein unless a horse has a compromised liver or kidneys, protein can be transformed in the body into all sorts of good things which youngsters particularly need to grow properly what they dont need is sugar or starch

Excess protein is excreted in the urine and actually makes the kidneys work harder.

Your youngster will grow best with protein levels around 10% while growing

Depending on the size of your youngster an adult horse is fine with one cupful (250ml size) If you can buy whole linseed and grind it yourself you get the best of the benefits of feeding Linseed. I use a small coffee grinder to grind mine. There is no need to boil the Linseed so long as you grind it.
 

windand rain

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This exactly the reason you shouldnt feed high protein to a horse with dodgy (compromised) liver and kidneys because they cannot cope with the high levels. Digestively you can live on a pure protein diet not ideal but possible.
Protein is converted into all nuitritional needs in the liver and is excreted through the kidneys if in excess . The only reason we dont feed higher protein is because normally it is more expensive than carbs
Horses balance out or excrete the extra by grazing and eating forage feeds so a high protein, fibre high, forage based diet is the best thing for a growing youngster it cannot do any harm except as above in sick animals
It just makes for expensive pee
 

Tnavas

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This exactly the reason you shouldnt feed high protein to a horse with dodgy (compromised) liver and kidneys because they cannot cope with the high levels. Digestively you can live on a pure protein diet not ideal but possible.
Protein is converted into all nuitritional needs in the liver and is excreted through the kidneys if in excess . The only reason we dont feed higher protein is because normally it is more expensive than carbs
Horses balance out or excrete the extra by grazing and eating forage feeds so a high protein, fibre high, forage based diet is the best thing for a growing youngster it cannot do any harm except as above in sick animals
It just makes for expensive pee

Protein
• Protein breakdown begins in the stomach using secretions of bile from the liver
– Acidity denatures the proteins
– Pepsin partially degrades proteins into smaller peptides
– No protein absorption in the stomach
• Further broken down in SI
– Proteases break down proteins to amino acids
– Absorbed across SI gut wall

Detoxifier
The liver acts as a filtration system to protect other organs from the effects of toxin build-up. It is the body's own detox system. Poisons absorbed from the gut are removed from the blood by liver before they can affect the rest of the body. Also, naturally produced poisons such as ammonia are converted into safe chemicals that can be excreted. Ammonia is converted into urea for excretion by the kidney.

Excess protein puts a great deal of strain on the liver!

Young horses SHOULD NOT be fed in excess - it causes growth problems when tendons and ligaments fail to grow at similar rates. The protein levels around 10% are more than sufficient - they should be receiving as natural a diet as possible - and provided with a vitamin, mineral balancer for young growing horses.
 

windand rain

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Yup tally ho I have four bandy badly put together county show winners who I have been here since they were born or weaned
My basic diet has always been high protein, high fibre, high oil diets with low carb and if possible no sugar
Trouble is when people ask how I get them to that standard they still insist on the high carb diets that tend to give pot bellies with no topline could show you the huge difference a high protein diet can make but not sure if photobucket will play ball
 

Tnavas

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Anything wrong with the top line of this yearling? Yes or No

WishawFantasiaJan2010033.jpg
 

BigYellowHorse

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Thank you for the replies. I really appreciate it.

Find the whole decision on what to feed like a minefield.. I dont want to over feed but at the same time I want them to have the best start especially during such an important part of development. ..

Tnavas can I ask what you feed your yearling on?
 

Tnavas

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Thank you for the replies. I really appreciate it.

Find the whole decision on what to feed like a minefield.. I dont want to over feed but at the same time I want them to have the best start especially during such an important part of development. ..

Tnavas can I ask what you feed your yearling on?

Grass and a mineral block - she is now 4yrs old and 17.1hh
 

BigYellowHorse

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Thanks tvanas.

Windandrain if photo bucket decides it would like to be a team player would love to see your guys

Will see if I can get a picture of my boy - I think he looks a little pot bellied.
He's on 1/2 a scoop mare and youngstock, 1/2 scp chaff twice daily and 1/2 a mug of the cooked linseed (was 25ml linseed oil) and top spec all in one balancer in the evening and out on good grass.. i dont think he's over loaded on carbs and put the belly down to being a grass belly, will leave that to your guys judgement though.

Oh and he's 16hh and 2yo his weight was 450 but that will have gone up as we were coming out of winter when I last weighed him and he's definitely grown again - he doesn't seem to stop growing! Lol
 

Mike007

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Some years ago there was a fad in racehorse training to feed high levels of protein (around 20%) this lasted only a short while as strings of otherwise health fit young racehorses went down with liver problems.Also ,remember that the de-amination of surplus protein produces ....carbohydrates.Thats what the body turns them into.
 

Tnavas

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Some years ago there was a fad in racehorse training to feed high levels of protein (around 20%) this lasted only a short while as strings of otherwise health fit young racehorses went down with liver problems.Also ,remember that the de-amination of surplus protein produces ....carbohydrates.Thats what the body turns them into.

Only some Mike! The majority of it is converted and excreted as urea and causes high levels of amonia in the urine - extremely smelly beds run the risk of irritating sensitive nasal and lung tissue

http://www.proequinegrooms.com/files/3313/1906/1064/NM__10_Flyer-Protein_myths.pdf - interesting reading about proteins
 

Mike007

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Only some Mike! The majority of it is converted and excreted as urea and causes high levels of amonia in the urine - extremely smelly beds run the risk of irritating sensitive nasal and lung tissue

http://www.proequinegrooms.com/files/3313/1906/1064/NM__10_Flyer-Protein_myths.pdf - interesting reading about proteins

Thought I was the only one still awake. The protein is composed of Amino acids which are basicly a complex carbohydrate with an attached NH2 group (an amine group) hence the name amino acid. De-amination chops off the NH2 group and it is ultimately excreted. But for every molecule of Nitrogenous waste (I use the term advisedly because the compounds excreted vary ,especialy in the horse) produced ,a molecule of carbohydrate is also produced.Its as simple as that , a lot of soluble carbohydrate is produced. I find this subject fascinating. Back in the dark ages we thought Azoturia was caused by excess protein ,but now we know that it is due to metabolic problems with soluble carbohydrate .I am waiting for this to go full circle and the researchers to realise that the effect of surplus protein is to produce the carbohydrates involved with EPSM.
 

Tnavas

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Thought I was the only one still awake. The protein is composed of Amino acids which are basicly a complex carbohydrate with an attached NH2 group (an amine group) hence the name amino acid. De-amination chops off the NH2 group and it is ultimately excreted. But for every molecule of Nitrogenous waste (I use the term advisedly because the compounds excreted vary ,especialy in the horse) produced ,a molecule of carbohydrate is also produced.Its as simple as that , a lot of soluble carbohydrate is produced. I find this subject fascinating. Back in the dark ages we thought Azoturia was caused by excess protein ,but now we know that it is due to metabolic problems with soluble carbohydrate .I am waiting for this to go full circle and the researchers to realise that the effect of surplus protein is to produce the carbohydrates involved with EPSM.

Hi Mike - wide awake in New Zealand - thanks for that I find odd areas confusing but have copied and pasted your info in my file on feeding.

My understanding of Azoturia was it was accumulated glycogen which I thought was produced by carbs rather than protein. Love this disease - they just refer to it as tying up in NZ. I've seen racehorses standing on the tips of their back feet with the effect of the muscle cramps - boss wouldn't allow me to put hot water bottles on its rump but sent it off to its box with its breakfast! :confused:

EPSM - I had never considered just protein as the problem but am damned sure that SOY has a major influence in its cause and of course SOY is rich in protein! Interesting idea. Wish that al these commercial feed manufactures would vapourise and allow our horses to have a back to basics diet again.
 

Mike007

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That explains it,I live on southern hemisphere time:D.Glycogen is basicly glucose stored in the muscle.My observation ,for what its worth, is that simple carbs produced by protein deamination get fed DIRECTLY into the muscles. Carbs in food are subject to all sorts of microbial action ,all oxidating them to other compounds . These compounds can be fed into the various cycles used to strip energy and feed it into the ADP ATP convertion which fuel muscles. My suspicion ,for lack of a laboratory and humungous research grant,is that the effect of carbs produced by deamination of protein is more disruptive (couldnt think of a better word)than the normal energy sources which have already been partialy oxidised . PS , I am entirely open to offers from anyone with Humungous amounts of money to pursue this line of research:D
 

Tnavas

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That explains it,I live on southern hemisphere time:D.Glycogen is basicly glucose stored in the muscle.My observation ,for what its worth, is that simple carbs produced by protein deamination get fed DIRECTLY into the muscles. Carbs in food are subject to all sorts of microbial action ,all oxidating them to other compounds . These compounds can be fed into the various cycles used to strip energy and feed it into the ADP ATP convertion which fuel muscles. My suspicion ,for lack of a laboratory and humungous research grant,is that the effect of carbs produced by deamination of protein is more disruptive (couldnt think of a better word)than the normal energy sources which have already been partialy oxidised . PS , I am entirely open to offers from anyone with Humungous amounts of money to pursue this line of research:D

I run on varying hemispheres may soon have a nana nap and wake up and think it's another day!

When you get this funding - I am more than happy to be a research assistant :D
 

tallyho!

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Thanks tvanas.

Windandrain if photo bucket decides it would like to be a team player would love to see your guys

Will see if I can get a picture of my boy - I think he looks a little pot bellied.
He's on 1/2 a scoop mare and youngstock, 1/2 scp chaff twice daily and 1/2 a mug of the cooked linseed (was 25ml linseed oil) and top spec all in one balancer in the evening and out on good grass.. i dont think he's over loaded on carbs and put the belly down to being a grass belly, will leave that to your guys judgement though.

Oh and he's 16hh and 2yo his weight was 450 but that will have gone up as we were coming out of winter when I last weighed him and he's definitely grown again - he doesn't seem to stop growing! Lol

My yearling was just on grass and mineral block whilst out. Never ever gave her mare & youngstock... far too much grain.

Over winter she was on good hay and fibre pellets, linseed and appropriate minerals.

She is turned out now on a mixed ley but mainly rye-grass as we use it for our beef herd... protein pretty high I guess. Terrible.

 
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Tnavas

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My yearling was just on grass and mineral block whilst out. Never ever gave her mare & youngstock... far too much grain.

Over winter she was on good hay and fibre pellets, linseed and appropriate minerals.

She is turned out now on a mixed ley but mainly rye-grass as we use it for our beef herd... protein pretty high I guess. Terrible.


Lovely horse very well grown
 

tallyho!

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Thanks tnavas.

Also, as an aside... I have a fascination with wee... after having an EMS horse, it became routine to check urine. I often feel it's an over-looked marker for kidney & liver health. If I see the slightest bit of milky-ness I have a mild panic attack.

Thankfully this filly has been much better for my blood pressure than my old boy.
 

windand rain

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Only horse I have bought older than a foal here the day he arrived age 2 and a half

5months later as a three year old


14 year old highland mare with her day old foal


mum aged 2

she is 18 now and as fit as a flea
The foal now four and her first day ridden

My pride and joy owned from 4 months old three in this photo
 
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windand rain

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All fed high protein low carb diets and the point I made earlier about protein being converted into everything an animal needs is illustrated above by Mike007 above you even get the carbs you need from it

Oh well will continue killing my horses as I like the way they look even unto old age. May think again if and when the old girl starts to get smelly wee but so far I am proud of my little band all working hard jumping, cross country and showing into old age. Never had one touch wood with a metabolic illness colic or any other feed related illness. little dartie did get laminitis once as someone put him on standing grass when I wasnt there he healed to sound in 4 days and was shown at county level 6 weeks later and has never had another bout.
All kept on minimal grazing short lawn length grass low levels of hay as it gives them the runs so they look as they do purely from small amounts of grass and bucket feeds
bucket contains grass chaff, linseed, alfalfa pellets, unmolassed sugar beet brewers yeast and table salt
dartmoor 6 weeks after being unable to walk due to a well meaning passer by removing him from his short grass into the standing hay placed third at county level

judge wanted more condition on him but I think he looks very well
 
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tallyho!

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Well, it can mean a lot of things but in the context of my gelding, it was a sign that his kidneys and liver were not filtrating very well and upon urinalysis from vets, it showed glucosuria, proteinurea and a low pH (horse wee is alkaline). Basically, he was diabetic!

It means that all is not as it should be with the liver and kidneys and a sign that they are struggling to process excess fat, protein, sugar and carbs.

With Malt, I did a long detox starting with a bespoke herbal tonic and then on soaked hay and just a mineral lick. He was stabled for 3 weeks. His wee was clear well within 10 days but I needed to give his body a rest. He was a changed horse. A learning curve for me!

With mares, during a season, you expect wee to be slightly milky but it should go back to clear within a few days.

I'm with windandrain on the protein. An excess, unless there is a problem internally, isn't a problem. Excess carbs and sugars IS a problem and can cause a lot of damage.
 
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tallyho!

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All fed high protein low carb diets and the point I made earlier about protein being converted into everything an animal needs is illustrated above by Mike007 above you even get the carbs you need from it

Oh well will continue killing my horses as I like the way they look even unto old age. May think again if and when the old girl starts to get smelly wee but so far I am proud of my little band all working hard jumping, cross country and showing into old age. Never had one touch wood with a metabolic illness colic or any other feed related illness. little dartie did get laminitis once as someone put him on standing grass when I wasnt there he healed to sound in 4 days and was shown at county level 6 weeks later and has never had another bout.
All kept on minimal grazing short lawn length grass low levels of hay as it gives them the runs so they look as they do purely from small amounts of grass and bucket feeds
bucket contains grass chaff, linseed, alfalfa pellets, unmolassed sugar beet brewers yeast and table salt
dartmoor 6 weeks after being unable to walk due to a well meaning passer by removing him from his short grass into the standing hay placed third at county level

judge wanted more condition on him but I think he looks very well

Lovely horses... judge wanted more weight??? Say "yes I'll do that next time... where should I send the vets bill?"
 

Rouletterose

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This is fantastically interesting! what a vast amount of knowledge here, based on that can any of you tell me why my warmblood mare that used to tye up badly after schooling and usually always when she came into season was kept with no short feed other than bran and speedy beet was always worked off the turnout rather than straight from the stable, then due to circumstances had a diet of the above plus bruised/crushed oats and was always worked straight from the stable, but then was turned out straight afterwards, and now never tyes up! I have owned this mare now for 10 years and even the vets are baffled!

thoughts appreciated.
 

tallyho!

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Some horses are prone to tying up which is why some people still never work a horse straight off the grass! Not all horses are like this and I certainly used to work my horse straight from the field without a problem.

Azoturia is caused by a number of things, genetics, diet, imbalance of electrolytes and minerals, selenium deficiency and even hormones. Bran is not ideal as it is quite the stripper of minerals from the digestive tract hence why it is used to clear the digestive tract after colic or other digestive upset.

In any case, the pain is caused by muscle tissue breakdown as the body can't metabolise energy from glycogen quickly enough so working horses too hard who are on a high carb diet is almost always the cause but why some horses get it more than others I still don't really know. Did your mare get any form of mineral balancer?

Not warming up well enough before proper exercise is also a cause. I guess you have to take each horse on its own merit and not treat each horse the same. Would you work a horse who had arthritis the same way as a horse who was sound? Of course not, you would give it more time to warm up. Same goes for any condition.
 

Tnavas

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Mares are evidently more prone to tying up/Azotouria than geldings so maybe with mares hormones have a part to play.

I do remember somewhere that reducing oats and barley and replacing with maize was one way of dealing with racehorse mares prone to it.

A friends daughters pony mare ties up without warning though I think in this case its not kept very fit - pony tends to sit in yard/paddock for days on end then is hauled off to a show and show jumped all day.
 
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