Could intermittent crazy behaviour be linked with ulcers?

[kgj66]

I have pondered for a few months now whether my horse may have ulcers. The only normal symptom she has is that she is very sensitive when grooming her belly, rugging and sometimes when doing up her girth. Otherwise healthy appetite, shiny coat, good weight and happy in her demeanour.

She is out at least 9 hours a day in winter and 24/7 in summer with ad lib haylage and good grazing.

I recently read on this site http://www.drkerryridgway.com/articles/article-ulcers.php how sometimes other symptoms can appear such as intermittently being explosive when ridden - wanting to buck when asked to move forward and how ulcers can affect picking up the correct lead on the right rein and muscle tension in the shoulders - all of which she has been showing in the past few months.

The vet seems to think that she is just a typical TB but after 2 sessions of riding her this week where she felt like a coiled spring, and at one point did explode I think there may be an underlying issue. There is no badness in her, and she was not trying to get me off but she definitely did not want to go forward and was just highly reactive to any noise/horse/movement. Generally she is not spooky. The second time she was like this I was having a lesson, and after enduring the lesson in walk for 30 minutes because the instructor didn't see the point in me trotting as she was so tense I took her to a different arena which was 15 minutes away and she was perfectly relaxed. Such a change in demeanour in such a short time - this is what puzzles me!

Is scoping the only way I can find out if this is a problem - the vet will do it I'm sure but I wondered if anyone else's horses had similar intermittent symptoms?

 

[JillA]

Scoping has limited applications - no endoscope on earth can see inside the large and small intestines, and they could be ulcerated. The best way to diagnose IMO is to treat and see whether there is improvement, but I don't know whether a vet would diagnose on that basis for an insurer? If you are prepared to go down the herbal or less expensive remedies route, you could try that - there are lots on here who have.

 

[HappyHooves]

No, no intermittent symptoms with mine or at least, his explosive nature has other causes! Mine showed no classic symptoms of ulcers at all! But the only way to know for real is to have your horse scoped. First of all check your insurance because gastric ulcers drain your quota quite quickly as the drugs are expensive. There is a YouTube vid about the acupressure point that is said to 'diagnose' the presence of gastric ulcers - search on here for gastric ulcers and you should find the link and then you can try that on your horse. In the mean time, always give a couple of handfuls of chaff type feed about 20 mins before any work, lunging etc as this will stop the splashing of stomach acid up the top end of the stomach. Although you say that you have given ad lib haylage and grazing, I have a vague thought that hay is thought to be less trouble than haylage but I might not be right on that - check out the other posts. There are all sorts of things that you could add which might stop the symptoms but you will have to be very scientific and only introduce one thing at a time or you will end up feeding loads of stuff un-necessarily. And even if the symptoms go away, you don't know if the ulcers have healed- unless you have a scan you can never know for sure... and then, of course, there are hind gut ulcers which cannot be scoped for! There are lots of very useful things in posts already so take a look. Good luck.

 

[shergar]

If you Google ulcers in horses look on that page for ULCER DIAGNOSIS BY MARK DE PAOLA . sorry not sure how to do a link ,it is a very interesting video.

 

[heebiejeebies]

Treat as if she has got ulcers and see what happens. I have never used gastroguard or any of the other medicines you can spend a fortune on, but we have went from constant diarrhoea, loss of weight, bucking/napping when ridden, trying to bite when touching belly/along back, doing up girth/rugging etc to a completely happy horse with no signs of ulcers at all.

As long as he has adlib access to forage, lives out 24/7 (stabling causes stress) and gets enough exercise he is perfectly fine.

 

[maccachic]

Stressed grass is high in potassium and potassium affects uptake of magnesium. Is your horse getting plenty of salt? 10g per 100kgs to start and loose salt no blocks ad lib? This flushes potassium out of the system.

Mag is responsible for a whole range of responses.

Another thing to consider is my mare get over sensitive to flies to the point she biffed me off a light rug solved this issue.

 

[Goldenstar]

Scoping has limited applications - no endoscope on earth can see inside the large and small intestines, and they could be ulcerated. The best way to diagnose IMO is to treat and see whether there is improvement, but I don't know whether a vet would diagnose on that basis for an insurer? If you are prepared to go down the herbal or less expensive remedies route, you could try that - there are lots on here who have.

Don't post things that are not true .

It's possible to see the small intensive with a scope I have seen it done for myself on a horse being investigated for IBS.
OP gastro scoping represents good value for stomach ulcers , you get a definitive answer before you treat with anti ulcer drugs that are expensive .
It gives you a clear answer in that if no ulcers are present you look for another reason for the behaviour .
If ulcer are present they in almost all cases they respond well to gastro guard often in conjunction with other drugs and related management changes .
However ulcers are often secondary to pain somewhere else this is where it get complicated .
They usually return in these horses .
Do not waste money on trying to ' treat ' things that may not be there the scoping is cheap compared to cost of gastroguard .
It is however worth looking at your management and see if you can take away any risk factors for ulcers that you can influence.
Hind gut ulcers are rarer and the horses are usually quite sick and they have a blood test to check for them .

 

[JillA]

Don't post things that are not true .

It's possible to see the small intensive with a scope I have seen it done for myself on a horse being investigated for IBS.
OP gastro scoping represents good value for stomach ulcers , you get a definitive answer before you treat with anti ulcer drugs that are expensive .
It gives you a clear answer in that if no ulcers are present you look for another reason for the behaviour .
If ulcer are present they in almost all cases they respond well to gastro guard often in conjunction with other drugs and related management changes .
However ulcers are often secondary to pain somewhere else this is where it get complicated .
They usually return in these horses .
Do not waste money on trying to ' treat ' things that may not be there the scoping is cheap compared to cost of gastroguard .
It is however worth looking at your management and see if you can take away any risk factors for ulcers that you can influence.
Hind gut ulcers are rarer and the horses are usually quite sick and they have a blood test to check for them .

Please explain to me (in some detail) how you get an endoscope into a convoluted tube of muscle which is many metres long and has mucus walls which are as much liable to ulceration as the stomach, which is a relatively small vessel and easy enough to get the camera into?
Gastroguard is not the only treatment for ulcers, only the most expensive. I know, I have treated one, with my vets agreement as to the probable diagnosis (he agreed nothing else was likely to produce the symptoms and he would be interested in the outcome), with substances it is easy to obtain from any supermarket. And there are plenty of people on here who will tell you they have treated for ulcers and the behaviour has improved beyond measure.
And I am posting matters which "aren't true"??????

 

[Goldenstar]

You said you can't get a scope into the small intestine .
I have stood and watched it done they passed scope through the stomach out into the small intestine and looked about of course you can't look over the whole thing but it's certainly done and with the horse I saw it in they where looking for signs if IBS.
Gastro guard is gold standard treatment for equine stomach ulcers some times combined with other treatments .
The active ingredient in gastroguard inhibits the production of acid thus allowing the ulcers to heal the things you buy in supermarket reduce acidity not the same thing at all they may and are used to give relief over a period if travel or work .
Diagnosis of stomach ulcers is easy with scoping , you look then you know .

 

[JillA]

LARGE and small intestines - you would do well to read what I wrote, if you look at the physiology it is not possible to go very far into that system from the stomach. Gastroguard is omeprazole with a coating which allows it to resist breaking down in the acid environment of the stomach before it has had chance to do its job. I have used human omeprazole with the addition of a substance which lowers the Ph in the stomach, so achieving the same thing (I used bicarbonate of soda, and it can achieve a great deal on its own). Gastroguard is the prescription drug which is beyond the means of many people unless they are covered by insurance. It is important for the health of horses to be able to offer an alternative for those less fortunate, and there are alternatives out there. You do the horse population a disservice by suggesting it is the only reliable medication - what are people to do if they cannot afford it - PTS?

(IBS is slightly different - the signs you are looking for are much more generalised, with ulcers there could easily be a cluster beyond the reach of any endoscope)

 

[Goldenstar]

I do believe that people who own horses should take a realistic view of what it will cost to care for their horse .
Stomach Ulcers are a common issue easily diagnosed and most respond beautiful to gastroguard .
The symptoms OP describes are pretty non specific and a scoping gives a definitive answer as to whether stomach ulcers are the cause.
Scoping in such cases is in my opinion a better way forward than a gastroguard trial .
The last time I had a horse gastro scoped on a scoping day at my vets it cost £150 on special offer it's £300 regularity this represents good value as you know at the end whether ulcers are present or not .
There's no way someone whose horse is described as having intermittent crazy behaviour should be advised to tinker around the edges it is dangerous for the human and unreasonable for the horse .
Many things could be causing such behaviour an experienced vet need to assess the horse .
Personally I think gastroguard which can transform a horses life represents much better value for money than many other treatments that are commonly done .
A gastroguard trial where you give gastroguard for period and watch the reaction is not such a great idea where the behaviour is intermittent .

 

[catembi]

To answer the orig q, my ex-racer had episodes of going totally mental, but always under stress - mostly travelling, competing or the odd funny turn out hacking. He has 2 moods - super chilled or mental. Not sure whether being stressed triggers release of acid which makes the ulcers hurt more...?

He was scoped for ulcers & had grade 2 pyloric. Had a month of GG plus antib's plus the white stuff that's s'posed to coat the ulcers, then rescoped - zero change. Vets said they didn't know what to suggest next, so I was sent home with nothing. We did a month on gastroplus - no change - and we're now tinkering with other stuff as the vets really are not interested. Might try a different vet or a holistic one as mine have no interest whatsoever in him, & didn't even want to scope. At the risk of sounding nuts, I insisted as the equine communicator said that's what was wrong with him.

Sorry, rambling & probs no help at all.

T x

 

[YasandCrystal]

Stressed grass is high in potassium and potassium affects uptake of magnesium. Is your horse getting plenty of salt? 10g per 100kgs to start and loose salt no blocks ad lib? This flushes potassium out of the system.

Mag is responsible for a whole range of responses.

Another thing to consider is my mare get over sensitive to flies to the point she biffed me off a light rug solved this issue.

^^ I agree with this.

 

[Goldenstar]

To answer the orig q, my ex-racer had episodes of going totally mental, but always under stress - mostly travelling, competing or the odd funny turn out hacking. He has 2 moods - super chilled or mental. Not sure whether being stressed triggers release of acid which makes the ulcers hurt more...?

He was scoped for ulcers & had grade 2 pyloric. Had a month of GG plus antib's plus the white stuff that's s'posed to coat the ulcers, then rescoped - zero change. Vets said they didn't know what to suggest next, so I was sent home with nothing. We did a month on gastroplus - no change - and we're now tinkering with other stuff as the vets really are not interested. Might try a different vet or a holistic one as mine have no interest whatsoever in him, & didn't even want to scope. At the risk of sounding nuts, I insisted as the equine communicator said that's what was wrong with him.

Sorry, rambling & probs no help at all.

T x

I would guess the ulcers are secondary to another issue I had one horse like this .
Or the temperament of the horse is leading the issue he sounds like one of mine off or on no middle road Although vets don't know this happens in horses it does happen in people .
And tats is a highly reactive character .

 

[Silverfire]

Kgj66 if you have insurance or can afford it then scope, at least you will know either way. My horse has been scoped twice, first time two years ago because she was not eating much which didn't improve on gastrogard. She didn't have ulcers and they scoped into her duodenum as she was only little at twenty months old. Then last week she was scoped again, eating well but grumpy and couple other little things, she has lots of ulcers in her stomach, some quite bad, pylorus and as far as scope went and beyond there were ulcers, i think scope went into duodenum. These were caused by NSAIDs. Shes fat and her coat has a shine on it, she is also okay to rug and brush although prefers being brushed with plastic side curry comb and she has a fine coat. She is not yet ridden. Just waiting for some cimetidine to arrive as can't use gastrogard. Just been sent some Seabuckthorn to try and that sounds quite good. Anyone tried Seabuckthorn? Cantembi did you use doxycycline to try treat the pyloric ulcers? When my horse was scoped last week vet who did it said they usually give doxycycline and gastrogard together to treat pyloric ulcers. Unfortunately my horse can't have either.

 

[catembi]

Nope, GG, antib's & something I can never spell... anseptin or something like that.

Apparently GG isn't so good for pyloric. I suspect duodenal ulcers as he's greedy rather than off his food, & duodenal feel better (in people) if you eat, & hurt more in between meals. They didn't scope that far, & tbh don't really give a c**p about him as he's just a 10-a-penny ex-racer. It is quite disheartening when they really don't give a stuff.

Now on ranitidine & gaviscon double action, & improving slowly but surely.

T x

 

[YasandCrystal]

catembi if I haven't already suggested to you if you search green clay and chlorella - I have posted a few times of the 6 week regime which restores the hindgut friendly bacteria following treatment by GG. My horse had a pyloric ulcer which was secondary to his chronic sacro illiac dysfunction. He also had 2 grade 2 ulcers - we treated with GG for a month but never rescoped. He went to a holistic vet at Higham for 2 weeks and the first thing she said was that he was on high alert and she could tell he had hindgut discomfort which needed to be treated with the green clay and chlorella regime. Worth trying frankly as inexpensive to do but heed the 2 week break of the green clay.

This is an interesting website OP

http://www.lunatunesfreestyles.com/horse_ulcers.htm

 

[kgj66]

Thanks everyone got the responses.

To be honest I am nervous about asking for a scope as I have heard that this can stop you being covered for colic in the future-have many people experienced this? If I phone my insurance (KBIS) to ask them if this will happen will they immediately note it down on my record anyway, or is it just if I actually go through insurance for it. Anyone know how much the GG is? If it was a case of avoiding losing colic insurance I would see if I could afford it myself!

 

[Silverfire]

Thanks everyone got the responses.

To be honest I am nervous about asking for a scope as I have heard that this can stop you being covered for colic in the future-have many people experienced this? If I phone my insurance (KBIS) to ask them if this will happen will they immediately note it down on my record anyway, or is it just if I actually go through insurance for it. Anyone know how much the GG is? If it was a case of avoiding losing colic insurance I would see if I could afford it myself!

Gastrogard is £153 for 7 syringes from vetimed but you would need a prescription to get it. There are plenty of non prescription things you could try. I don't know the answer to your insurance question sorry. Not had bill for scope yet but when i had one scoped last autumn think it was about £180 plus vat to scope plus sedation plus visit.

 

[kgj66]

Thanks Silverfire.

Another question- could have loose droppings when stressed (ie at a show, loading onto the box) be a sign of ulcers?

 

[paddy555]

OP,
the answer to your original question is yes. It affected mine very badly. He was dangerously crazy. Got the problem under control and he was a changed boy.

Big question is whether you are dealing with stomach or hind gut. After a lot of reading I decided to start on the hind gut. I was lucky as I chose equishure and within days I was starting to see results.

The advantage of equishure (for hind gut) is that although a little expensive it is non prescription and doesn't seem to cause any problems . Nor do you have to tell the insurance.

I considered scoping but for various reasons (nothing to do with money) I wasn't happy about it. Also it is not just one scope, it is a second to see if it has worked and then more GG and another scope to see if that has worked.

I did lots of reading and the most important thing was management. It seemed I could throw any amount of money at the problem but unless the management was perfect it would be wasted.

I started, not on giving anything, but on management. I achieved some improvement just by this. Not all horses like 24/7 out, not all like being confined to a stable and not all like travelling and a million other things. Not all horses like their companions. This can be a big cause of stress. If it causes that particular horse stress there will be a problem. I analysed every moment of his life, I found he didn't like his stable companion. They were too close in the pecking order and both challenging for position. I gave him a much more dominant horse to control him. He was happy.

For mine it was confine him to a stable overnight. I had not realised that he hated his previous lifestyle of freedom. He wanted the security of a stable. He also wanted a thick warm rug. Everything else I did was based on keeping him, in his view, completely safe and under control. Any little panic on his part and I was there and on top of it immediately.