Could my JR kill a pregnant roe deer? - opinions please?

Storminateacup

Storminateacup

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My dog ran off into the woods just as I was leaving the field. He was gone about 20 mins when I received a phone call on my mobile from a woman who said she had found JR sitting barking at a dead deer.
I retrieve said JR who did not have a speck of blood on him and returned to check the deer to see if it was in fact dead.
It was alive! - Oh my God. So, to cut a long story short I phoned the local vet, - vet not interested said they would call RSPCA - but no one available to despatch or assist deer. I returned to it put a towel over its head to help keep it calm and so I could check it over and possibly take it to vet myself. It had a lot of long scratch marks on it back with fur missing, and a throat wound. It was not bleeding from anywhere and certainly not pumping blood. Its eye were glazed, but breathing strong. It was bloody around the back end, but it looked to me like it was in labour. It was a small roe deer.
Anyway, while I was doing all this the local farm hand turned up, someone had called him, and he pronounced the deer totally ****ed and then launched a verbal attack on me saying that my dog had ripped its throat out and torn its **** out too. He said that my dog should be in a lead in woodland at all times and that he had chickens and they were at risk from my dog!!!

I said that my dog had only ever managed to kill myxomatosised rabbits in the past and then only a few, (about 3 in total). He does not chase sheep or horses and is generally frightened of cats.
I said my dog has not a drop of blood on him, and got the dog out of the car to show him. He just maintained that my dog had done this even though the wounds on the deer looked old and slightly dried and clearly no artery severed as the blood would have been pumping everywhere and there was only blood coming from the wound in the chest, from the huntsmans knife he had just used to despatch the animal.

Question is what does everyone else think - did my JR rip the throat out of a roe deer as it lay in the undergrowth giving birth?, or does it sound like something else had already attacked it and my dog just found it in that state?

Also is it an offence for a dog to kill a wild deer in Scotland?

I would be astounded if he has done this, he is little, light boned terrier that most people think is a weedy cross- bred.
The deer was twice the size of him.

I took him home and wiped him over with a damp tissues to see if there was any blood - not a drop.
What can I do if my dog is being blamed for this when he mearly found an already injured animal?

Any advice, info or even suggestions for animal that would be capable of killing a deer, wild or domesticated in this way.
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For a start I am so sorry for the abuse you have been put through and find it appalling. Yes in theory I think it could but given the facts I find it doubtful. It sounds more like an attack from another dog and if your JR had attacked it I can guarantee it would not be barking at it and would continue the attack. I am 100% convinced your dog (from what you say) did not do the damage! I think the most you could be done with is poaching and hunting with dogs if guilty and you took the carcass however...PROVE IT!!!! Why on earth would you call for a vet etc if you were on the hunt???? and a JR???? You would use a bigger dog if it was deliberate. I am speechless...does this 'country person' know a thing about dogs??? My Irish wolfhound was a merciless killer and we kept very vigilant in woods but thankfully he was too big to kill a deer in woodland and you could hear him coming for miles as stealth was not his forte!!!!Too slow to catch one in a straight line however the local land managers knew us, and when they culled the deer would leave the head for our dog to find and when he found it (if fresh...he didn't like it if it wasn't warm, dirty skank...) he would be merciless and I mean merciless. A dog that attacks would not sit by and admire its handywork it would continue until the chore was done... I feel for you... Ignore this imbecile and if he ever accuses you again, tell him you object and if he would like to prove it he is welcome. I am sorry you have had a traumatic day!
 
The farm hand was quick to put the dead deer into the back of his car and drive off - guess it will be in his freezer in a few days maybe?
I am worried now that the word will go round that my JRT is a vicous deer killer. The farmer whos' land it was on is also the farmer we rent our horse field from although he is a nice man and I would think sensible too. The farm have a number of hides in the trees and I know they are out hunting, as I ve heard the gunfire.Whether its deer or pheasants they are hunting I am not sure, as I am not familiar with the game calendar.
I know that this farm hand does a lot of rabbit shooting on the farm, so I am worried now that it will give him some "right" in his opinion, to shoot my dog if we come across him when I am out hacking my horse around the farm fields (about 800 acres) and walking the dog at the same time.
(JR runs along with me when riding).
And yes this particular fellow is known to be a bit of an a**** by the local riding community.

Hubby suggested that the deer may also have been hit by a car, been shot and wounded or attacked by foxes, or even that it was having a difficult labour and was down and weak, and open to the possibility of a number of opportunistic attacks from assorted predators.
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I would be amazed if a JRT, and a small one at that, could bring a healthy deer down.

I should think he was just having a look and was in the wrong place at the wrong time
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Poor you..... but I think it would have to be witnessed for it to be a prosecution case.
 
I feel for you, I really do and your little dog. Please don't worry. No one could prosecute you for this. They would have to prove it first, and I expect the only way they could do that would be a DNA test on the saliva found on the deer and the saliva in the dogs mouth. And not being funny but if it had of been your dog I am sure he would have despatched the deer in a better fashion. I believe he may have been sat at the deer barking as he knew the poor creature was in trouble and was trying to alert you to the fact. I sincerely hope there are no repercussions as a result of what has happened, I am truly sorry for your awful time, in what must have been a very distressing time for you seeing the deer with such dreadful injuries and maybe doubting for a split second whether it was your dog or not. What a horrible experience.
 
If the estate does hunt the deer do you think maybe the deer could possibly have been injured as a result of a c**p marksman, ie. the farm hand who was so nasty to you..... just a thought! x
 
How horrible...there is a dead lamb lying up in the woods behind our house and I am waiting for someone to pin the blame on us (even though we and the dogs have been on holiday for three weeks and we are probably the only ones who don't let our dogs run amok up there.

Roes are not huge and I seem to recall your dog is quite leggy so it would not be beyond the realms of possibility - could it have been injured already and have been in shock?
A lot of dogs will chase something until it stops moving, but then don't know what to do with it as there is nothing to chase any more.

If its' back end and neck was damaged, is there a possibility that it had been attacked by a dog/dogs or foxes as it sounds like something was trying to bring it down.

If your dog had done the deed I would expect him to have had blood on him, be a bit sweaty and excited, and most likely trying to worry it or take a lump off it.
 
I think he could, but am not saying he did. My whippet x lurcher has as small a jaw as a JRT and she has killed deer. They also do disembowel them through the rear end. Yuck.
Sorry you copped all that abuse, what an asssssh...
 
Thanks everybody for you kind words. Yes Dicky is long legged but quite dainty build. He was trampled on by a labrodoodle puppy today and gave up immediately, injured in play!

He was found sitting by the deer barking furiously but about 2 ft away. Thats what he does with the hoover and sometimes large toys ( friend has a toy tiger in her garden that is a bit bigger than the deer, that Dicky sits and barks at 'cos he is terrified of it).
He wasn't sweaty or excited and had no blood on him when found.
Thats what makes me think it could not have been him, but clearly from the poor deers appearance it had been dragged down from behind because of the scratches and pulled out hair, and its throat had been attacked, as had its rear. But as I said, it all looked like old injuries not fresh blood.
When I found it it was breathing hard but then it started to shake as well as if in shock, so he may have had a go at it. Thats why I covered its eyes with a towel to help to calm it.
It was pregnant too poor thing.
The farm hand just pulled its head up roughly by its ears and after pronouncing it ****ed, stabbed it in the chest with a hunting knife.
It was all very upsetting.

Anyway I ve heard nothing more today so I will try to forget about it.

Thanks again for your advice and comments
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I would think it unlikely that a single JR would bring down a deer, if it was in company then perhaps more likely so.

What you describe is similar to the staghounds holding a deer at bay - that is when they get to the deer and its just stands (often in water) the hounds will stand round it baying (barking/howling) until someone comes to shoot the deer. If the doe was heavily pregnant she may have laid up quite soon and possibly the wounds would have dried after 20 minutes.

I guess you will never truly know but just to be on the safe side (yours dogs that is!) I would keep a close eye on him for a while.
 
I'd be very impressed if a JR could bring down a deer! My longer legged Border certainly cannot keep up with healthy ones. Think farm hand just being grumpy, shake it off and tell everyone in the village is is bonkers if he thinks a russell is a deer killer!
 
I can just see a JR trying to chew the ankles off an angry deer!!!!
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Have you ever tried to pick up a roe deer or argue with one? - they are viscous and really strong, it took me and my dad to wrestle with an injured young one and even then it was a struggle and once in a stable would attack at full blast if you went in to change its water - they can cause serious damage!!! So would say NO to a JR bringing down a roe deer!!! - I think even something the size of a ridgeback would be in for a battle and not come off without some injuries!!!! Not to mention everyone in a 10 mile radius would hear the noise!! I think the farmer is just angry he has lost a deer and if it was attacked by a dog then the first port of call would be his farm collies!!!!
 
Thanks everyone for you support, we now think the deer was a Sika deer not Roe and they are quite small.
I said I thought the farm hand stabbed it in the chest because he put the knife between its front legs and when he carried it out of the woods it was dripping blood from the chest or even the abdomen. I didnt actually see the fatal blow as I turned my head away, he didn't cut its throat though. Anyway the word has gone out amongst the Horsey community that my dog is a vicious deer murderer!
What a load of nonsense, I am so angry and upset as I was trying to help the deer, Hubby said next time something happens like that just walk away, but I couldn't just leave it to the crows, poor creature.
Now I am having to watch over my dog as I fear the farm hand, being the moron that he is but entrusted with a gun to shoot rabbits occasionally, will jump at any chance to shoot him ) (he has chickens you see!)
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