Counter rotated pedal bones

[Terri love]

Hi.

My horse has counter rotated pedal bone in her off hind. Has been remedially shod - hinds in wedges. She was also broken back hpa in all other feet so fronts are shod with magic cushion and a flat pad.

She has been sound -ish? Since being shod- occasionally goes a bit sore if she over exerts herself or does something ridiculous.. But I have been seeing one short stride of trot in the downward transition to walk..(in the off hind when it is on the outside-fine when it is on the inside oddly)..

This is freaking me out!!!

I'm just wondering if there is anyone out there that has managed this condition and improved the negative plane by going barefoot?

I'm obviously following vet and farriers advice but I just cannot help but think this short stride is there and it is worrying me.

And the shoes have not exactly been a magical cure as this soreness comes after exertion..


If there are people out there that have managed this condition barefoot did the horse return to full work and what level was that? My horse is medium level

Thanks for reading!! Any advice will be great xx

 

[ester]

Yes, although not rexrayed as horse came sound.
My vet was not keen to use wedges as they crush whatever heel was there to start with anyway.
Both front feet, heels were under run, hooves looked much better after some remedial work in bar shoes but pony still lame. - Both feet x-rayed the same but only one lame, on slow mo the one that he landed more laterally on so suspect some other stuff going on too.

My belief is that with shoeing we got his feet looking better on the outside but what he actually needed was the inside structures to beef up and support the pedal bone properly which happened when the shoes came off. It still likely isn't in a 100% perfect spot as he still has flatter soles than ideal but came back to more work than I ever imagined when the shoes came off 3 years ago, 22 and managed to go hunting again the last 2 years

How old is yours?
Why the pads/magic cushion, I am assuming flat/thin soles making them sensitive? In which case they do sound like they could be quite 'sick' feet.

The key to barefoot is feeding, movement (slowly!) and patience (see previous point). It does sound like yours might need booting for a while too.
Get the food right, start short in hand walking on the road if poss, straight lines, 5 mins at a time and slowly build up from there. I was possibly extra cautious given my lad's age, shoes off in march/april and cantered hacking in the september and only then did he start doing any circle/schooling work. He was ok for the first 6 weeks then went quite footy which isn't unusual as the blood supply to foot etc increases and they seem to wake up.

Any other questions ask away! I am quite aware of the impracticalities at times/horses not all getting to amazing rock crunchingness but do believe for most it is their best chance/option for soundness.

 

[Terri love]

Hi ester- thanks for the reply.

My horse is 10 this year. Was rescued at 6 by myself. Had pretty much been a field ornament until then. The man who owned her wasn't experienced enough - frightened her and then could not get near her. So I bought her as an unbroken project.

She had not been trimmed for god knows how long and lived in pretty small paddocks so yes lack of exercise and care and attention up until that point. (6)

I kept her unshod for a while and meant to continue that way ( if only I had) but I guess as her workload increased I found her struggling with the ground ( or so I thought) when it could have actually been the in balances in her feet in hindsight.

Secondly I do think poor shoeing has contributed to this problem.. After liaison with vet and obviously X-rays and a farrier change I do think there has been an improvement - and after a second set of X-rays in October there was significant improvement to balance of all feet (even to my untrained eye it was obvious) and the off hind was now flat instead of counter rotated- hence going in the right direction.. So I cannot fault new farriers work- but as you have pointed out the Internal structures need to strengthen to hold the pedal bone in its new position...

As there is this 'short step' which is concerning me I think I will get her re xrayed shortly..

In prep I have switched to soaked hay and will speak to vet about it... I'm happy to give it a go if it means she will be happier and sounder for longer!!!

 

[Terri love]

Forgot to reply to why the flat pad and magic cushion in the fore feet..

They were broken back hpa as well as very short and small as the previous cr8p farrier had cut too much of her toe off in order to attempt to lift the heels - which as I understand it weren't growing due to her being broken back... And I do feel in hindsight yes he prob removed too much sole and yes feet were flat. As I understand it the magic cushion helps provide some protection and relief for the sole and a slight lift to help with the hpa.

It's really difficult to know what to do for the best! I have spent hours online researching and it seems most successes have come from going barefoot but most articles or cases seem to be navicular.. You are the only person so far to come forward with counter rotation so thank you for your help !!

 

[ester]

'navicular' is a bit of a catch all too.
My vet had sent some to Rockley for navicular but said he had no idea about counter rotation/whether it would work. However he also agreed that my farrier had done a good job with the remedial shoes and he wouldn't change the feet much looking at them (knowing what I do no, I would have found quite a bit).

Well done spending the time online, I do think it is important to arm yourself with as much info as possible even at the very least that you are happy with the decisions you are making. The scientist in me would like much more peer reviewed evidence, but myself and many other sciencey bods on here have accepted that the shear logic has to be enough at the moment. Also the changes and adaptations that some horses have managed to make are quite staggering. It does however mean I tend to look at any horse I meet from the ground up!

Have you found this forum? http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/

I asked age because if sore/flat in front I wondered if there was the possibility of anything metabolic going on, cushings or EMS for example?- obviously given age the latter might be worth keeping in mind more than the former.

Diet- low starch+sugar, high fibre, micronised linseed is used by most and a good quality no iron mineral + vitamin supplement. - The highest spec of these tend to be forageplus or pro hoof from pro_earth on ebay (they send you free sweets too ) there are quite a few others but phoenix is probably better for discussion of all the options.
Feed wise a few brands do seem to disagree with some, and some are alfalfa tolerant.

Just as an example for my rather fussy chap I currently use agrobs aspero grass chaff, unmolassed sugar beet and oats (busy boy!) + linseed+ equimins advanced complete + extra magnesium oxide and phosphorous as we are in a very high calcium area. Previously when he was out of work I have used fast fibre, plenty just use straw chaffs or beet as a carrier, coolstance copra gets used for those needing more calories but not oats - it depends on the horse and the energy requirements.

It might be worth looking to see if there are are any barefoot professionals near you just to get a second opinion (though might be difficult with the current shoeing situation as there won't be much to see), the main qualifications/registrations are UKNCHP, EPAUK and DAEP- they are all a little bit different re. techniques and I think it is best to speak to individuals too and can just be helpful to fire some thoughts off someone-I certainly did the latter before deciding! (can also ask for recommendations on phoenix).

Oh the one other thing I forgot to mention was keeping on top of any thrush during transition.

Boots have come on a lot, lots of options, with various padding and few on here have even used them for turnout for horses that really struggled to start.

 

[Terri love]

Yes spoken to Lucy priory she goes to a yard near me and yep if I take the leap she will be the one doing my horse and advising on boots.. I don't think there are any metabolic issues but good idea to check!

 

[ester]

Oh fabulous, brilliant person to have near you, I didn't have to write half my post! get her there asap (she used to post on here quite a bit and trimmed for a few users . )

 

[Terri love]

Yes I just called her on the off chance and she really made things clear!! Thanks for your help it's helped put my mind at ease. I shall let you know how I get on!!!!

 

[Terri love]

Hi everyone.. Well I spoke to the vet and she did agree that I seem to be going round in circles. Had my physio she said it's the worst she had seen her in a long time - so I am right in all my suspicions that she has not been happy lately.. Made a plan with the vet to go ahead more X-rays and a re think poss barefoot at the end of the month when she is next due for shoeing..

Just add confusion into the mix my horse pulled the shoe and wedge off her off hind yesterday- second time in the last few weeks!!! So what to do?? Take it that she's trying to tell me something and remove the near hind and bite the bullet- albeit it's a bit earlier than planned?? Or get the shoe back on?? Heeeelllllppp!!!

 

[Terri love]

Hi- quick update. I took all the shoes off mid jan - the last time I posted. Am now doing about 1 hr 15 mins walking on Tarmac (ridden in hoof boots).. Ester- can I please pick your brain? Can you remember if you actually saw the digital cushion thicken.. I am longingly checking mine on a daily basis but am yet to see much difference in the hinds which is where the problems mainly lie!

Maybe I am just being impatient!! I am glad I removed the shoes though- no regrets there even though it is a bit of an emotional rollercoaster!

 

[ycbm]

You need to make absolutely sure that the negative angle was not as a result of a back or hock problem, which can cause it. Unfortunately it's a bit of a circular thing as weak heels can also cause the back problem!

How are you testing for digital cushion thickness?

I would expect you to have seen a change in the hair line by now, and to feel less 'chicken fat' and more 'end of pencil eraser' when pressing down between her heel bulbs behind her pastern.

I don't know how I missed this thread first time but I've done a number of negative coffin bone angle horses and they all came right as the heel strengthened.

 

[Terri love]

Hi ycbm. Just by sight and by feel really- saying that I have just looked at her shots directly after shoe removal and I can see quite a difference now. Much more so in the fronts than the hinds. I think I just need to be patient!

Nice to hear you have been successful rehabbing lots of negative coffin bone angles..
So i take it I just keep marching on and hopefully, in the end we will get there! Any other advice you can give?

 

[Terri love]

Yes the heel bulbs are getting firmer - but again more improvement I feel in the fronts- x

 

[ester]

Hello again

We hit our 4 year shoes off anniversary the other day and still early days for yours, I think we hit significant milestones at the 6 month and year month (then sort of levelled off) and then had a second improvement when he moved to wilts with me and was doing more work on more surfaces.

I think I was too busy watching and waiting for his angle change to come down tbh! Only once we had sort of finished and comparing him to other shod horses I realised how beefy his had become.
quite a lot of hair in the way of pics too so you can't really see the improvement in lateral cartilages at all!
early on then 6 months later

 

[ester]

and a year later

 

[ycbm]

Hi ycbm. Just by sight and by feel really- saying that I have just looked at her shots directly after shoe removal and I can see quite a difference now. Much more so in the fronts than the hinds. I think I just need to be patient!

Nice to hear you have been successful rehabbing lots of negative coffin bone angles..
So i take it I just keep marching on and hopefully, in the end we will get there! Any other advice you can give?

Yes, keep marching on

People often write as if the fronts are always more difficult, but I've had several where the backs were more difficult than the front. You're only on three months and it sounds as if you are doing pretty well so far. Keep up the good work!

Watch the hair line on the side view. If the digital cushion is building, that line will be getting straighter and straighter.

 

[Terri love]

That's one of the problems she has feathers so I find it really difficult to see any difference in the coronet band hairline!

My trimmer is really pleased with the progress so far.. Do I just keep covering as much ground as I can? As much Tarmac as possible for as long as poss??

 

[ycbm]

Tarmac is just terrific for allowing them to self trim. I see your problem with not seeing the hair line! Go by feel of the back, then.

Whatever he's comfortable with, and you have time for, do. Don't miss more than one day, do two days in every three as a minimum, and keep going. You'll get there.

 

[Terri love]

And in your experience how long has it taken the horses you have worked with (with similar problems) to develop stronger digital cushions to allow them to return to their former level of work? Or did they not??

 

[Terri love]

Hi ester- thanks for the pictures. Wow 4 years strong eh?!

Glad all is going well and thank you for the reply. The early transition days were really scary and horrible as she was pretty sore but after I'd say 6 weeks her white lines tightened right up and she has been more comfortable since then. I am glad I have done it and look forward to the improvements to come. I just need patience I think!! Xx

 

[ycbm]

And in your experience how long has it taken the horses you have worked with (with similar problems) to develop stronger digital cushions to allow them to return to their former level of work? Or did they not??

Oh no, every single one of them has. The worst took nine months to return to BE eventing. The others ranged between three months and six months to be ready for a day's hunting or eventing, most of them on the three to four month mark.

Counter rotated feet are VERY dependant on getting the back comfortable. If you aren't seeing progress you are happy with, I would check with a physio.

I do have some very good facilities (but no track). My horses never have to stand in wet fields or confined in a stable and I have plenty of time for all the walking!

 

[Terri love]

Wow that is impressive!! Do u do rehab?!?! Funny enough she had the physio for the first time today since we began.. She was sore - as I knew she would be.. Pretty much all over but mainly shoulders..

She has been out all day (with no hoofboots )until yesterday.. Yesterday the laminitis app was as high as it could be and today they switched fields so with the risk being so high she's had 3 hours turnout plus the walking.. (Native breed)

Once the risk has decreased again she can go out all day. Unfortunately overnight turnout is not an option at our livery yard. Ok so hopefully in the next 3 months -6 months we can get back to doing some fun stuff- that's something to look forward to!! Thanks for the advice!! Much appreciated xx

 

[Terri love]

Oh and our fields are pretty well drained nothing boggy x

 

[ester]

Def keep up the physio, I do remember being impatient because I really wanted to know if it was going to work for him or not but feet definitely teach you patience and to just keep plugging away at it slowly. We had our first ever abscess about 5 weeks back - galloping across flinty stubble fields so we let him off and it has made me fascinated with them again the way you can see the new sole being laid down in the hole and what the rest does around it. He also cut his frog up and whenever his frog is not 100% or shedding his bars come up, when the frog resolves the bars peel off again. They are right clever you know!

 

[Terri love]

Ok I will- it's scary cos I don't really know what I'm doing - just plodding along (literally)!! Thanks for the help and replies xx

 

[ester]

I hadn't a clue either - now I trim him myself!

 

[Terri love]

The thought of that terrifies me!! You are brave! Anyway I will keep you posted on our progress xx

 

[Terri love]

Hey- thought I'd give an update.

Had some X-rays done and things are def improving. Hpa now all good. Hind pedal bones still a little flat but nowhere near as bad. Soles are just thin - that's the main problem now. I'm up to 1.5 hours a day- just under half of that I would say is trot.

Her feet are def looking better- more Concavity and much firmer digi cushion and sole.

She has gone off the agrobs mash though- what do you guys feed?

Hope you are well x

 

[Terri love]

Hi everyone .. Thank you for replying to my posts earlier in the year. I thought I would give you an update.

I moved yards mid July and this mAde a big difference to my horse. She has lost weight and feet have improved massively. All schooling is done barefoot. Hacking without back boots now up to 1 hour- any mental/ longer hacks boots all round.

There is walker at new yard which she goes on 40 mins every day. On top of this she
Is ridden 6 days a week- jump lesson once a week. School once a week (40mins) hacked the rest (45-1 hour) with a 1.5 hr ride once a week.

She is being fed soaked hay -turnout half day with muzzle- and about a third of a scoop of agrobs muesli twice a day with forage plus minerals.

Although her weight is very good- she us def lacking energy- and I know she is working hard and I want her to get her sparkle back- esp as we are going to begin competing again.

I would like some safe ideas on providing this.. Do I go for upping the muesli? Adding oats? Speedibeet? It's really tricky with these fatty native types!! Should I soak oats? Is it a case of suck it and see??

Advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[ester]

Nice update

I have always fed oats, as they come, he has never put weight on with them as I think the extra energy he has put into general life when fed them mitigates it.