Cow kicking

TheChestnutThing

TheChestnutThing

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My 4 year old KWPN gelding (gelded at 3) cow kicks out of defiance.
He kicks out when I try pick his back feet or when I ask him to so something he does not want to do.
He has never been mishandled and has been handled since birth. I bought him straight from the stud.
He is starting to express other stallion like behavior such as chopping, biting when not getting his own way and wanting to "play" with me when I practice in hand trot or go into his paddock.
He has also suddenly developed a very prominent stallion crest. He is NOT a rig.

The chopping and biting I can deal with but picking out his feet becomes a mission as does in hand showing.

I go into his stable with a hard hat and a whip in order to quickly put a stop to bad behavior or keep him away from me if need be.

Under saddle he is very workable.

Any ideas?
 
are you sure there is no pain issues? has he always kicked out or is this a new thing?

My horse started cow kicking when pushed forward in the school!! turns out he was really tight across his back and back end and he'd gone really bum high again, so the saddle needed a lot of adjustments!!

he doesn't do it on the ground but can be a bit snatchy when I pick out his back feet!! but is getting better since I've been working on get him looser on the lunge
 
Kezzabell2 said:
are you sure there is no pain issues? has he always kicked out or is this a new thing?

My horse started cow kicking when pushed forward in the school!! turns out he was really tight across his back and back end and he'd gone really bum high again, so the saddle needed a lot of adjustments!!

he doesn't do it on the ground but can be a bit snatchy when I pick out his back feet!! but is getting better since I've been working on get him looser on the lunge
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No pain issues, he is treated with foradics twice a month, saddle fits (is new). He is growing. Standing 16.2 (has grown from just under 16hh in 9 weeks) and is very high in his wither at the moment. No issues under saddle except for being slow moving but this is being sorted out and is becoming better every ride.
 
A lot of young horses get mouthy but seem to grow out of it. All my younger geldings seemed to have an inate desire to chew or taste anything near their stable. Can't help with the cow kicking except he might just be testing you. Not keen on cow kickers...a mare did that to me in the lorry and booted me off the ramp. 5 days and 2 operations to get rid of the resulting haematona.
 
This is the same horse who you posted about being slow? Sounds like he is very sour and needs a break, preferably in a herd to unlearn this behaviour.
 
There is absolutely no way he could be sour he gets far too much stimulation for that and turning him out in a herd is not an option. He is in a large paddock with friends on both sides. He cannot be with friends due to his behavior as the other liveries do not want their horses marked by him.
 
At four years old and having grown over 2" in two months I would think he must be be feeling a bit awkward and possibly has 'growing pains'. Only you can see if he is uncomfortable or taking the pi55. Is he a big boy?

Try holding his foot lower to see if he is more comfortable. Make sure he is stood square and balanced for each foot.

OK, I just reread your OP and got to this bit.

TheChestnutThing said:
I go into his stable with a hard hat and a whip in order to quickly put a stop to bad behavior or keep him away from me if need be.

Under saddle he is very workable.

Any ideas?
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Is this every time you go in? How on earth did it get to that point? Does he get turnout with mates to play with?
 
TheChestnutThing said:
There is absolutely no way he could be sour he gets far too much stimulation for that and turning him out in a herd is not an option. He is in a large paddock with friends on both sides. He cannot be with friends due to his behavior as the other liveries do not want their horses marked by him.
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But too much stimulation can make them sour. It's a shame that he can't go out in a group. he's very young to have the whole gelding play thing missing from his life.
 
*Whinney* said:
At four years old and having grown over 2" in two months I would think he must be be feeling a bit awkward and possibly has 'growing pains'. Only you can see if he is uncomfortable or taking the pi55. Is he a big boy?

Try holding his foot lower to see if he is more comfortable. Make sure he is stood square and balanced for each foot.

OK, I just reread your OP and got to this bit.



Is this every time you go in? How on earth did it get to that point? Does he get turnout with mates to play with?
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I do it as a safety measure. Safety first. I would rather not put myself in harms way. Sometimes he is an angel. But sometimes, like tonight (when I didn't go in with my hat and whip), when I went in to get my phone that I had left on my tack box, he kicked out at me and cornered me. He is turned out from 8 am until 5pm in a large paddock with lots of room to play.

He is taking the pi55. Not uncomfortable. He was treated on friday and they didn't need to do anything to him. He also tried to cow kick the physio.
 
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Reading this thread and your other thread, you have one sour, fed up horse that has done far too much in his short life. Is this the horse you want to take to a five day show?
 
zigzag said:
Reading this thread and your other thread, you have one sour, fed up horse that has done far too much in his short life. Is this the horse you want to take to a five day show?
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I definately never said anywhere I would be taking him to a 5 day show!
Why would any person do that to a youngster?

Again...He is not fed up. He is not sour. He has no reason to be any of the above. When he works it's relaxed. He is relaxed. He is not tense. My schooling sessions are once a week in a lesson and they are 20 to 30 mins max. He either gets hacked or does in hand work on the other days. This is not a horse that can be left for days on end with no stimulation. If you read my other thread you will see that we had a breakthrough today. He was forward and really got it.

I asked for help to stop the cow kicking and stallion behavior. Not a lecture on how sour or not sour or fed up my horse is.
If he was any of that I would have realised and or asked for advice on that.

This is a challenging horse and one that has extreme talent and one that I want to work with and do it right.

I am an experienced horse owner who has owned and competed since before I could walk. This is just a problem I have not come across with any of my other (1 pony and 4 horses I have had since I started riding and 3 of them were youngsters) horses.

This boy has no pressure on him. He lives the life of Larry. He hasn't been competed unlike many 4 year olds I know. He won't start doing anything but in hand shows until he is 5.
 
OP I feel like you keep dismissing some very good advice from posters here. You have asked for advice and received insight from several very experienced horse people and yet are adamant that your gelding is not in pain/sour etc..why post if you don't want to take people''s suggestions on bored.
If he was mine I'd be turning him away for at least a couple of months with a group of geldings he can play with. He is a big young horse who is still maturing both mentally and physically, and from what you've posted it sounds as if he needs time off to just be a horse.
 
TheChestnutThing said:
I asked for help to stop the cow kicking and stallion behavior.
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What you have described isn't stallion behaviour to me, the stallions I have known have all been pretty much normal, well behaved horses (except around in-season mares). My daughters pony wasn't cut till 13 and has never displayed any behaviour like you describe.

I have known a horse before exactly as you describe (including problems with being backwards under saddle). Also home-bred, a talented gelding and handled correctly since birth, and completely untrustworthy in the stable. Unfortunately I can't give you any helpful advice as they never figured him out and sold him to a professional. Personally I felt he was in pain somewhere, but nothing was ever found.
 
How much forage is he getting ... is the vast majority of his diet made up of hay and grass? You may say he has no reason to be stressed, and he lives the life of Riley, and I'm sure to human standards that is true ... but is it to horse standards? Being turned out alone can be stressful for some horses. Diet, work, lack of outlet through play etc can all compound things. I would be thinking pain ... maybe ulcers. It's easy to forget with a big horse, but really he is just a baby, and if going through a growth spurt as well, then that could complicate matters. Sure, they may test the boundaries a bit from time to time, but really if you need a hat and whip just to go in his stable, or he is cornering you and kicking at you, then there is something fundamentally wrong with your relationship on the ground. I would be peeling everything back and looking at management, possibility of pain, or any other physical issues (some were mentioned on the other thread) way to get him more turn out/turn out with others, easing back on the workload and giving him time to grow a bit - I think you said on the other thread that he had been in schooling for a year by the time he was four ... that's a fair bit of work for a youngster without a break ... the fact that giving him some more gallops has improved his outlook (as per other thread) suggests he is/was getting fed up, even though you can't see the reason why.
 
As suggested several times I would consider turning him away for a break, preferably with like minded company. Sounds like he has done a lot. How much is he currently stabled?
You say he is definitely pain free. Horses don't have the mental capacity to wind us up on purpose. He is doing it for a reason. So
a) he has some discomfort
b) he is stressed/bored/over handled/needs more turnout
c) there is a handling issue.

If you rule out the impossible, you'll be left with the answer.
 
I have come across behaviour like this before, a gelding biting when being turned out, a couple of mares cow kicking, including one who after being backed tried kicking her rider back when asked to move forward ( investigations were carried out to check it wasn't pain related) and my little Welsh pony who would corner people to protect her food when young and still as an old lady will bite when we are not doing things right( her tea not being in her stable) All of these were dominance issues,
Join up or some natural horsemanship type training to reassert you as being in charge might help, and reduce the bruises
 
My horse displayed similar behaviour to yours, cow kicking (particularly when lifting hind legs) and mouthing. Unfortunately these were a symptom of sacroiliac pain that was missed by both a physio and 2 equine vets. I would seriously consider whether his behaviour could be pain related, apparently cow kicking when lifting hind legs is commonly due to SI pain.

If it's not then it sounds like turning away for a couple of months with a herd would do him some good.
 
TheChestnutThing said:
I definately never said anywhere I would be taking him to a 5 day show!
Why would any person do that to a youngster?

Again...He is not fed up. He is not sour. He has no reason to be any of the above. When he works it's relaxed. He is relaxed. He is not tense. My schooling sessions are once a week in a lesson and they are 20 to 30 mins max. He either gets hacked or does in hand work on the other days. This is not a horse that can be left for days on end with no stimulation. If you read my other thread you will see that we had a breakthrough today. He was forward and really got it.

I asked for help to stop the cow kicking and stallion behavior. Not a lecture on how sour or not sour or fed up my horse is.
If he was any of that I would have realised and or asked for advice on that.

This is a challenging horse and one that has extreme talent and one that I want to work with and do it right.

I am an experienced horse owner who has owned and competed since before I could walk. This is just a problem I have not come across with any of my other (1 pony and 4 horses I have had since I started riding and 3 of them were youngsters) horses.

This boy has no pressure on him. He lives the life of Larry. He hasn't been competed unlike many 4 year olds I know. He won't start doing anything but in hand shows until he is 5.
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OP, you say he is not sour, he is not stressed, he is not in pain - but he is behaving as though he is experiencing one or all of these things. Horses are individuals. Just because you think he 'shouldn't' be experiencing any of those things, doesn't mean he isn't.

Do you have a specific objection to turning him away for a while? I'm breaking a six year old at the moment and I've just given her a month off for the simple reason that she needed a break. Just because she's six, doesn't mean she's ready and the beauty of breaking (or bringing on) your own, is that you can choose to take all the time in the world, go at the horses pace, pay attention to their reactions, responses and physical, mental and emotional wellbeing and as opposed to breaking (or bringing on) in a professional setting, don't necessarily have to work to a fixed time scale. You won't lose ground by turning him away, he won't forget anything he's learned so far and you might well gain ground, if anything.

To my mind, nothing matters more than having a happy, keen, healthy and well rounded horse at the end of the process - and it's worth taking time, if needed, to get there. Listen to your horse, if you won't listen to us and if you are completely opposed to turning him away, at least consider reducing his work down to basic handling, for now. Use the time to form a healthier relationship with him than you currently have. It will pay dividends in the future.
 
Orca said:
OP, you say he is not sour, he is not stressed, he is not in pain - but he is behaving as though he is experiencing one or all of these things. Horses are individuals. Just because you think he 'shouldn't' be experiencing any of those things, doesn't mean he isn't.

Do you have a specific objection to turning him away for a while? I'm breaking a six year old at the moment and I've just given her a month off for the simple reason that she needed a break. Just because she's six, doesn't mean she's ready and the beauty of breaking (or bringing on) your own, is that you can choose to take all the time in the world, go at the horses pace, pay attention to their reactions, responses and physical, mental and emotional wellbeing and as opposed to breaking (or bringing on) in a professional setting, don't necessarily have to work to a fixed time scale. You won't lose ground by turning him away, he won't forget anything he's learned so far and you might well gain ground, if anything.

To my mind, nothing matters more than having a happy, keen, healthy and well rounded horse at the end of the process - and it's worth taking time, if needed, to get there. Listen to your horse, if you won't listen to us and if you are completely opposed to turning him away, at least consider reducing his work down to basic handling, for now. Use the time to form a healthier relationship with him than you currently have. It will pay dividends in the future.
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Exactly. There is no timescale.
 
Agree with others, this is not a happy horse. For a four year old to never have the opportunity to play with others is unkind and a recipe for a miserable animal. We have rising five and rising six year old mares, they are turned out together daily and the amount of time they spend playing silly beggers is astonishing. Without that opportunity to chase, bite and groom, they would both be miserable and I would not expect them to interact well with me. They will both be ridden away and brought on this spring, the years difference in age is not reflected in their mind set, or their physical development, they are treated as individuals, but their needs as horses are met. I would suggest that you try and do the same for your horse, for both his and your sake.
 
Agree with the general consensus. I think some time off is needed. He seems to have done a lot for a 4 year old and maybe is finding it all a bit much.
I also have a 4 year old mare and while she did a lot of schooling in her first home all I have done with her for the last 6 months is hack out with her. I find her to me a much more forward going horse now than when I first bought her.
Why not turn him away for a few months with some friends to play with now the weather is improving and then just bring him back into work with some gentle hacks.
 
OP - If he were mine, I would not be riding him until his growth spurt has subsided, its sounds like a big one.

Secondly, if he has been handled nearly every day of his life I always find that this "over humanises" some youngsters and can make them a bit.. in your face..

In your In Hand sessions, I think you need to start reinforcing "your space" and getting him to respect your space.

He also needs mixed turnout, he is far too young to be turned out alone with no friends.

Stop going on the defensive, there is alot of good advice on here from some extremely experienced horse producers.
 
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