Crates and toilet training - I need hive mind input!

[Moon River]

We lost our 14 year old spaniel in the summer and after a bit of reeling around we started to think about getting another dog. We (I!) decided we should be sensible and look at getting a new puppy in the spring to make toilet training more bearable with the better weather coming in, so of course what we actually did was find a lovely litter of labradors that are now 5 weeks old and put our names down for a new little boy puppy who will be coming home just before New Year. Cue panic. It's been a long long time since I had a puppy, everyone seems to do crate training now which definitely wasn't a thing on my radar last time round. Is this really the best way to go? Options are crate, think it would have to go in the main living area as not enough space any where else, and/or baby gate on the kitchen for keeping puppy in one place when required.

If I buy a crate what size do I go for? I'm looking at 36" size ones as being lab sized, but then reading about keeping the space small and increasing as puppy grows. I think I've finished hyperventilating about not being able to bring a puppy up well, for the minute at least.

Puppy spam attached.

 

[JillA]

Unless you particularly want a crate, I think for a puppy that small a playpen might be better. You can reduce or increase the size and by the time he is old enough to be able to jump out he will have got used to being in there and feel secure. You could get a crate when he's fully grown if he does start to jump out

 

[blackcob]

I have a 10 week old at the moment (no choice over timing to get the good weather as I waited nearly two years for him to arrive!) and I would not have considered doing it without a crate and a puppy pen. It's a guaranteed 'no chewing harmful things, not being squashed or chomped by the adult dogs, learning to chill out on your own' safe space that lets you take the eyes out of the back of your head for ten minutes. That they can help facilitate toilet training is an added bonus.

Many crates come with a divider so you can block the space partway while they're young and open it up fully as an adult - on that basis I'd get the largest crate you have room for. 36" sounds a bit wee for an adult labrador, I have cockers in a 36" and a spoilt brat of a siberian husky in an admittedly overkill 48".

More puppy spam on arrival please!

ETA: Don't pay over the odds on a new crate or pen, they get passed on a lot, you will find them cheaply on FB/local ads.

 

[Clodagh]

I have no idea how we ever coped before the invention of crates! Labs, although gorgeous and the best dogs ever, are destructive monsters and a crate saves your house.
I will measure ours tomorrow (it is not in use at the moment and if I open the door everyone will wake up). They have a bed in the back bit and paper or old towel in the front, no lab has ever toileted in it. (The spaniel did).
It is not big enough for a full grown lab but does them until 6 or 7 months when I trust them enough to stop using it.
And the pup looks stunning and endless puppy spam always needed.

 

[AmyMay]

Are you going to want an adult dog in a crate???

 

[Moon River]

@JillA puppy pen looks like a possible, thank you

@blackcob thank you I've had a look on facebook and you're right, there's a few locally on there

@Clodagh, thank you that would be amazing

@amymay no idea! Not shut in, if that's what you're meaning

 

[PapaverFollis]

Crates are brilliant for toilet training and for times when you can't supervise puppy properly. Keeps them and your house safe! My adult dogs still use their crates and are happy to be shut in if needs be. I have jumbo crates for them now though! Puppy crates were smaller. I know if I ever had to crate rest them or they had to go to the vets they'd be completely fine, it's a good skill for them to have.

I just had a simple rule that only empty and supervised puppies get free time. So toilet outside, then come in and play/train/explore under a watchful eye then when they get a bit tired they get a chewy toy and go into the crate for quiet time. Once they've had a bit of a sleep or rest it's back out for toiletting and start the process again. Mix it up with training/encouraging them to rest outside of the crate too. My spaniel could spend the whole night on the sofa if he so chose but he always takes himself to bed in his crate at around midnight and looks really pissed off if you dare disturb him after that. 😂

 

[CorvusCorax]

Both my adult dogs still sleep in their crates, quelle horreur.

I use XL airline crates from when they are very small. Both second hand. More covered/secure and less annoying rattle.
Never had any issues with toileting.

 

[Annette4]

I wouldn’t be without crates now. Not only has it been part of my contract when we were renting but it keeps them and your house safe when you’re out.

Fizz now panics if I leave her out of her crate trying to be nice 🙄 so I’ve given up and they are crated with the door locked overnight and when alone in the house.

I didn’t crate train Jack until he was 4yo but found them a real help with subsequent puppies. I’ve always got one which should be adult size and started with a smaller bed and puppy pad in the other half then got bigger beds as pup grew with no accidents in there. I also feed them in there but that’s more been to stop greedy older dogs stealing than anything else 😂

 

[splashgirl45]

my little terrier is now 21 months and is a chewer of wires amongst other things,,,....i have the wires covered up as much as poss but for my piece of mind he is shut in his crate overnight and also if i go out for any length of time. i hope he will grow out of it as i dont like shutting him in , although he seems very comfortable with going in and just goes to sleep and in the mornings he doesnt want to get up even if the door is opened...he sometimes goes in the garden for his wee and then gets back in his bed ....its also useful to have them happy in a crate for travelling in the car and also if going to stay out overnight in a strange place as he has his own little house to feel safe in...i dont have a safe room to shut my dogs in so a crate has been a life saver ...

 

[Cinnamontoast]

We had pups without a crate, no bother but took ages to toilet train until my pil confined them to the corridor and they were suddenly clean overnight. The last two had a crate and needed forcing to rest. Theirs was pretty big as there were two of them, although I hear you're meant to have a small one then increase (use dividers). My lot decided they no longer wanted to be in the crate and we let them, left the door open, they migrated to a different bed, but go in the crate if ever it's up-used for box rest etc.

 

[windand rain]

I firmly believe every dog should be crate trained my lab has never even when only 8 weeks old messed or weed in the house, trained her in a crate that was her size and slept next to her so was able to take her out intantly is she started ruslting about. She loves her crate now as it is her go to place is she needs peace from the grandkids and if she wants to sleep when not next to me on the sofa. She likes being there as the door is rarely closed and still whines if in the crate and needs out. We have a very small house so the crate is in the area under the stairs in the lounge and is about 4ft long 3ft wide and 3ft high. The best reason for crate traning is if the dog has to stay at the vets it is less likely to be stressed by the practise and so will recover more quickly

 

[Mule]

As a petsitter I've seen very unpleasant situations with crating. I think if people want to keep a puppy indoors they should accept that it will act like a puppy. They chew things, they will pee indoors until their bladder is capable of keeping full for a period of time. They also roll in smelly things and eat unpleasant things because it's their nature.

It would be better to use a baby gate and make the confined area big enough so that your puppy has enough space to move freely.

 

[TGM]

I have crate-trained two puppies now, and if you do it correctly, it helps with toilet-training immensely and stops the puppy injuring itself by chewing on stuff it shouldn't. (Both pups were clean and dry in the house by 10 weeks of age). I think of it like a cot for a baby, somewhere where pup can be placed overnight to keep it safe and for nap times during the day, with the security if they wake up without you knowing they are not getting into mischief or danger. The key is in the term crate TRAINING though - it is not just shutting pup in a crate and leaving it to get on with it. Your aim is to make the crate somewhere the pup wants to be and feels secure. I used a plastic travel crate for the first couple of weeks. This is handy for using in the car when you go to collect pup and for trips to the vets etc, plus can be moved around the house with you if necessary. I would often have pup asleep in the crate at my feet whilst I worked on the computer, for example. Then they both went into a full-sized adult crate (I didn't use a divider). Current dog still sleeps in the crate with the door open, and old dog slept in it until the day she died, despite having the choice of other beds.

Like many other useful pieces of equipment they can be misused - they are not somewhere to leave your pup all day whilst you go out to work full-time. With my first pup I used a play pen and crate set up, but with my second I just used the crate as she wasn't left for more than a couple of hours during the day.

I found a really good resource for puppies in general, and crate-training/house-training in particular, were Ian Dunbar's puppy books which are now available free online:

https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/BEFORE You Get Your Puppy.pdf

https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/downloads/AFTER_You_Get_Your_Puppy.pdf

 

[TGM]

I would add, that if you are not sure, then it is always worth going with crate-training initially. It is much easier to decide to give the crate up later along the line when you can sell the crate on if necessary. j Plus it means pup is used to be crated for travelling in the car, if it has to stay at vets, if you take it on holiday with you. However, if you don't crate and yours turns out to be one of those particularly destructive, messy pups then it may be harder to introduce a crate at a later date, if you didn't do it as a young pup.

 

[splashgirl45]

As a petsitter I've seen very unpleasant situations with crating. I think if people want to keep a puppy indoors they should accept that it will act like a puppy. They chew things, they will pee indoors until their bladder is capable of keeping full for a period of time. They also roll in smelly things and eat unpleasant things because it's their nature.

It would be better to use a baby gate and make the confined area big enough so that your puppy has enough space to move freely.

there will always be people who abuse animals, however we dont all have the room to section off a part of a room for a puppy and crates are not cruel if used correctly. i used the crate next to my bed to start with so puppy felt secure, and then moved it downstairs to the living room where it still is. on the odd occasion when i go out for the day, the dogs come with me so he would never be left in the crate for longer than an hour during the day. this arrangement works for me ..and i know he is safe and not trying to find wires to chew...

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Our Rotters shared a single XL crate from being tiny, with bed at the back, water dish and newspaper/puppy pads at the front. They were very easily house-trained and now share a double crate. They can choose whether to sleep in the crate or not when they are with us. Overnight, or when we go out, they are usually shut in, for our peace of mind. They often choose to sleep in the crate with the door open and usually can both be found in the same half!

 

[Moon River]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply, I'll have a proper read through later on and look at those links.

 

[Clodagh]

Ypur reply reminded me to go measure, it is 80cm x 65cm x 80cm (ish).

 

[MagicMelon]

I dont see the point in a crate, to me they look pretty horrid having seen grown dogs spending hours sitting in one - surely thats so ridiculously unnatural? I dont get why people need to put their dogs in one - perhaps someone can explain? Ive certainly never seen any need to put my dog in a cage...

 

[CorvusCorax]

Ok, don't use one then the OP is interested in using one. For the record, I use airline crates which are mostly plastic, so I wouldn't call it a cage.

Do you put your horse in a stable or baby in a cot for hours on end? Is that so ridiculously unnatural? Have you seen canids in the wild, or sled dogs, digging themselves tiny holes to sleep/rest in? Is that so ridiculously unnatural?

Both my dogs were brought up to crate overnight and in the car. They have been clean in the house since day one. My older dog hasn't caused major damage or choked to death on something because of his insatiable (genetic) need to have something in his mouth at all times.
They have travelled all over Europe happily and with no stress. They have spent time in the vet's with no panic, because they are used to resting in a small space.
They climb mountains, run through the forest and enjoy the beach, they go to training club at least twice a week, they probably get more exercise and stimulation than the average dogs and they have plenty of time loose in the house, but I choose to crate them overnight and in the car, I can't see what is horrid about any of that

 

[Clodagh]

I dont see the point in a crate, to me they look pretty horrid having seen grown dogs spending hours sitting in one - surely thats so ridiculously unnatural? I dont get why people need to put their dogs in one - perhaps someone can explain? Ive certainly never seen any need to put my dog in a cage...

You have been very lucky then! My dogs have all at some point in their life needed to go in a cage, if only at the vets or for rest for an injury. I know we all have opinions on them, but dogs actually like going in the crate or cage, they are safe and secure and to their mind it is a bedroom, no different to a basket. I would never leave a puppy loose with my three adult dogs, it is not fair on the adults or the puppy. I am not sure if you have children but they, too, sometimes need to be 'made' to rest rather than just running riot until they crash wherever.

 

[TGM]

I dont see the point in a crate, to me they look pretty horrid having seen grown dogs spending hours sitting in one - surely thats so ridiculously unnatural? I dont get why people need to put their dogs in one - perhaps someone can explain? Ive certainly never seen any need to put my dog in a cage...

Have you even read the other replies on this thread?! I think people have explained quite clearly how and why they use them! If you are still unclear I suggest you read the links I posted too!

 

[jj_87]

We have a 17 week old lab who came home at 10 weeks old. He has a 36 inch cage which takes up most of my kitchen/ dining room! He never has toileted in the crate at all and *touch wood* only had a few accidents inside the house before knowing to go outside.
He chooses to go and sleep in his crate throughout the day and stays in overnight as he can be very destructive to my doors and walls!!

 

[moosea]

I am another who has never, and will never, use a crate.
If a dog wants space, or a safe space in my home then they use a dog bed in a quiet area.

Toilet training is not that hard. Make sure you take the dog/ puppy outside very regularly and gradually extend the time between outside visits.
If you do not want particular items chewed - move them.
If you want to keep the dog out of a certain room then use a baby gate.
If you buy a puppy then understand that you need to put a lot of effort into being around to help them learn and adjust to living in your home and with your routine.

My dogs are my companions and they have always had free access to all areas except for my bedroom.
They never learn to behave in the house if they are never given access to the house.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Who said crate-trained dogs aren't companions/don't have access to the house/aren't adjusting to living in the home and with routine?

I love this attitude that 'if you don't do it the same way I do, then it's horrid/unnatural/wrong/cruel'.
My older dog didn't chew, he crushed and then eviscerated, and he was able to pop gates/playpens at 14 weeks. I couldn't very well ask my mother to move an entire sofa out of the room, or all soft furnishings out of the house, and you can't train a dog to do/do not do anything, if you are not in the room with it. He settled down eventually and both are more than trustworthy in the house.
Not all dogs are the same.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I dont see the point in a crate, to me they look pretty horrid having seen grown dogs spending hours sitting in one - surely thats so ridiculously unnatural? I dont get why people need to put their dogs in one - perhaps someone can explain? Ive certainly never seen any need to put my dog in a cage...

I have a relative who rehomed a small Staffy bitch who had been confined to a crate as a puupy, for many hours a day and then when taken for a walk, she rode on the tray underneath a pushchair. The vet was very unimpressed and says that is why her legs and feet are troublesome now. When she first visited us, she wouldn't go anywhere near our crate, she wasn't even sure about being in the same room with it but she watched our girls, realised that is where the water is and now will happily come in and sit in the cage, uninvited.
As with all things, common sense should be used by the dog's owner.

 

[Clodagh]

I am another who has never, and will never, use a crate.
If a dog wants space, or a safe space in my home then they use a dog bed in a quiet area.
.

How do you keep dogs apart, if they need to be? And safe? Assuming you cannot always be with them, although you may be retired/not work/ work from home.

Although this is a pointless argument, I shall just agree with CC and continue to torture my poor beleagured slave hounds for a few months when I first get them.

 

[JillA]

I dont see the point in a crate, to me they look pretty horrid having seen grown dogs spending hours sitting in one - surely thats so ridiculously unnatural? I dont get why people need to put their dogs in one - perhaps someone can explain? Ive certainly never seen any need to put my dog in a cage...

My dogs (a whole variety over many many years) love their crates, regard them as their dens and choose to spend time in them even though the doors are rarely closed. Dogs as a species use dens with one entrance/exit they can defend if necessary. If you think crates are unnatural either you don't understand how crates are used or you don't understand dogs as dogs.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

They never learn to behave in the house if they are never given access to the house.

I agree with this but I do use crates. I think mine are rather nice though, more like play pens that they can move about in, have toys and huge beds that they can fully stretch out on. I have two entire males, they are fed seperately and they sleep seperately. If they are left alone (which is pretty rare), they are left in their crates-other than that, they are on the couch. Our kitchen is stupid- very narrow so two largish dogs would be a bit of a nightmare in there. Of course they can be used badly, so can collars and leads, so can anything.