Cremello x Chestnut = Colour query

Cremello mare x Chestnut stallion = palomino we thought....but our mare had other ideas and landed down with a very mousy-coloured dun yesterday! Foal is healthy and that's the main thing - but realistically what cross do we need for palomino next time?
 
I'm not 100% on this .... but could the Agouti gene be a factor? Although i think this is probably wrong as Perlino's carry the agouti gene? As i say , not 100% sure but thought i'd throw a suggestion in there...

I too did think that a Palo was guaranteed from that breeding though...
 
Thts a load of rubbish, colours do not 'dilute' in genetics. If i was to cross two grays. nothing says the foal would be gray unless they were both homozygous grays.. To ensure a palimino go and have you mare covered by a homozygous palamino stallion and hope for the best.....

A chestnut and a cremello crossed coul throw a mulitude of colours dependant on the sire and dms own genetic make up...

Is colour really that important?
 
I thought palomino was guarenteed with this cross??? Maybe foalies colour will change.

Opie should be able to shed more light on this
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the mare wasn't cremello she is perlino....... only answer I can think of. Oops.........

Cremello on chestnut gaurantees palomino no other colour variation possible....

Perlino is also double dilute but he carries the black gene.....
 
To ensure a palimino go and have you mare covered by a homozygous palamino stallion and hope for the best.....

haven't heard that one before.........
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sadly you cant garantee palomino from your mare, sorry got a bit muddled....... she must carry the black factor.......

But bucksin is lurvley too.............
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Homozygous is a commonly used erm in breeding....

Its the same as human genes and dog genes...

Why is that the only colour variation.?

what if you end up with two horses who both have say a recessive bay allele and this alleles match up.. the horse woul be bay.

I also dont see why colour is so important.. care to spread some light?
Lou
 
Oh great, wrong colour. We'll try again........... I am about to explode. Buy a bloody palomino and stop adding more to the market. Poor mare, has to breed again just because you want a palomino
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Brighteyes we dont know the full circumstances, your reply is a wee bit harsh. As for colour, why should people be slated for wanting a Palomino, does not mean they are not looking at the conformation of both horses. If my daughter had her way we would never breed from Mo again & if we did it would be to try for a Palomino. That does not mean that we would not be looking carefully at the stallion. And besides there is a good market for Palominos, sad but true.
 
I think people are being a bit sharp on here, what is wrong with wanting a Palomino, racehorse, eventer, showjumper etc... its horses for courses if you want to show a palomino its no good having a Dun is it?
 
We all breed with a desired outcome in mind whether it be to breed for dressage, show ring, allrounder etc. If colour is what you are breeding for then the links in my previous post should be somewhat helpful.

I'm sure the dun is gorgeous though. Would love to see pics of the arrival!
 
I'm going to try and explain Palomino in as simple as terms as possible (not that I could explain it any other way
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) to clear up the different things that have been said on this thread
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Palomino is not a colour in it own right like chestnut etc... Palomino is only achieved when you cross two other colours, those being chestnut and cremello and crossing chestnut to cremello will always equal palomino of some shade (unless of course the cremello of the parentage isn't cremello like previously explained by Opie). Because Palomino is not a colour in its own right, you can not get a homozygous Palomino, every palomino carries the chestnut gene and the cremello gene and will not pass on a palomino gene onto its offspring, as a palomino gene does not exist, it will pass either a chestnut or cremello gene to its offspring so you would not be guaranteed a palomino if you crossed 2 palomino's you would also possibly get a chestnut or a cremello. The way I understand it the shade of chestnut you use can influence the shade of palomino you get as well but as i'm not a genetics expert this is as far as I can explain it....
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Ashbank is really good at genetics and could explain it better I am sure
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As the others have said above, the most probable situation is that the "cremello" was not a cremello, but was in fact a perlino or possibly a smokey cream. To look at, they are very similar so you'd not necessarily be able to tell without having the tests done - or by seeing what colour the offspring are, as in this case.

A palomino is a chestnut horse with ONE copy of the Cr dilution gene. A cremello is a chestnut horse with TWO copies of the gene - ie homozygous for the Cr gene. This means that if you cross a cremello and a chestnut, you will geet a palomino foal guaranteed.

However, in this case, we have had a stray non chestnut added into the mix - which has given us a foal who is not chestnut, and therefore with the addition of the Cr gene, is not palomino.

You will NOT be able to guarantee a palomino foal from this double dilute horse - no matter what the colour of the other horse you put it to is.

Buckskins are lovely though - I have a smashing one myself this year (we knew he was going to be a buckskin - he's not bred for his colour, but I knew I was going to get that right from the conception).
 
Ah that would explain why our cream mare never produced a palomino
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she produced one was balck the other very dark brown, stallion was a chesnut, she looked a cream ..
 
zigzag, if your mare was definatly carrying two copies of cream then the first foal must have been smokey black and the second a very dark buckskin.
It is possible your mare wasn't carrying any copies of the red gene, which is why you didnt get a palomino.

Ashbank explains the genetics very clearly. Cremello is simply chestnut plus 2 copies of cream, perlino is bay plus 2 copies of cream, and smokey black is black plus 2 copies of cream. This means a 'cream' horse will always pass on one copy of its cream gene to its offspring.
 
Quite.

If the cross is chestnut x cremello you will always get a palomino. The only explanation for the foal coming out buckskin [not dun] is if one parents is actually a perlino [bay with a double dilute] instead of cremello [chestnut with a double dilute.]
 
Firstly, thanks everyone for your feedback. I really appreciate it. There's been a few questions asked so some additonal info:

- The mare is a blue eyed cream Connemara 5 year old. We bred her. A a BEC, she's not entitled to be 'truly' affilitated with the Connemara society and she's virtually worthless to other buyers - she might be bought by someone else for breeding purposes but realistically her future would be pretty poor if she missed a foaling year. She can't ever be ridden - her sight is very poor and we'd never ever sell anything on like this. But as we have a farm and she's an absolutely smashing sort, we put her in foal.
- Our first priority was a healthy foal, which she is. The second is that confirmation wise, she's straight and she is. Thirdly, we're concerned about colour because as breeders we do not risk bringing another animal into the world that may have poor sight. Consultations like this (and others we did previously) I think are indicative of responsible breeding. For example, we wouldn't even risk breeding her to a connemara stallion because the BEC pheonmeon is absolutely rife.
- What we want to breed are really nice riding ponies and for this type of market, colour can sometimes matter. But above all else, we want a foal that will have healthy eyes. We're going to try her again because she's turning out to be a great mum (which is I think what she's meant to do). But next time, do you advise we go to a bay stallion?
 
Do you know what colour her parents were?

Going to a bay stallion won't give you a better chance at a palomino, you're more likely to get another buckskin.

Chestnut is the best shot you have at getting a pally, but even so I don't think people would be at all put off by a buckskin baby!
 
Actually we're not that bothered about getting Palomino - It would have been nice and we thought we'd be in with a good chance of it this year but howandever. The main thing is healthy eyes. A proper dun would be great.

Her parents were both greys.
 
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Actually we're not that bothered about getting Palomino - It would have been nice and we thought we'd be in with a good chance of it this year but howandever. The main thing is healthy eyes. A proper dun would be great.

Her parents were both greys.

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Although her parents were both grey, this is not a colour but a fading gene. I would hazard a guess that they were both single dilute bays (buckskin - not dun, dun is a completely separate gene) which meant that each carried a creme gene and also the grey gene. It would appear that neither passed on the greying gene to your mare which makes her a double dilute bay (perlino), if you put her to a bay you will get a buckskin, if you put her to a chestnut you would also more than likely get a buckskin, unless she carries the red (chestnut) gene, the bay (agouti) gene is dominant over the red gene which makes me think it unlikely that you would get a palomino. Whoever said put her to a homozygous palomino is talking rubbish, palomino is a chestnut with one cream gene and not a colour as such. If you do put her to a palomino any foal would be double dilute and either cremello or, more likely another perlino.

Phew, sorry - hope this makes sense.
 
Cremello x Chestnut = 100% Palomino

Dun is not possible from the cream gene, only from the dun gene. The Cream on Bay is Buckskin, not Dun.

So that foal is probably Buckskin if the dam is a Perlino which is the only possibility that remains.
 
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If you do put her to a palomino any foal would be double dilute and either cremello or, more likely another perlino.

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Not correct. If you put a double dilute to a single dilute you get 50% double dilutes and 50% single dilutes.
 
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Thts a load of rubbish, colours do not 'dilute' in genetics. If i was to cross two grays. nothing says the foal would be gray unless they were both homozygous grays.. To ensure a palimino go and have you mare covered by a homozygous palamino stallion and hope for the best.....

A chestnut and a cremello crossed coul throw a mulitude of colours dependant on the sire and dms own genetic make up...

Is colour really that important?

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Sorry but you obviously don't understand the creme gene, a chestnut and a cremello always throw a palomino - I could explain but I can't be bothered, suffice to say that colours DO dilute in genetics.
 
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If you do put her to a palomino any foal would be double dilute and either cremello or, more likely another perlino.

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Not correct. If you put a double dilute to a single dilute you get 50% double dilutes and 50% single dilutes.

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Oh, did not realise that, that is interesting, but does make sense.
 
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