Cruel or am I naive...?

piebaldsparkle

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 July 2006
Messages
13,017
Visit site
It's not something I have ever felt the need to use or would know how to use, but I believe they can be quite effective if fitted and used correctly. I think the real problem is that they can be brought/used by anyone, even if they have little/no understand on how or why it works.
crazy.gif
 

foxviewstud

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 August 2007
Messages
544
www.foxviewstud.co.uk
i personally dont see the need for them and really dont think they should be available to anyone, when i worked in pet shop i often refused to sell choke chains to people as most havent a clue how to use them properly and end up injuring the dog, imagine the damage you could do if using this in the wrong way or being too heavy handed????
 

Oneofthepack

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 August 2006
Messages
1,626
Visit site
Likewise, any of these seemingly cruel techniques are OKish in the right hands. My dog was running away in pheasant rearing country and getting in a world of trouble with the gamekeeper so I used an electric collar very briefly after really good instruction from my brother and it worked very quickly and very well.

My brother told me of a person he shot with once that used one on his gundog really incorrectly. When dog didn't return from a pick up he just pressed the button continuously while the dog was out of sight and without giving it a chance to come back after it's first warning. As my brother pointed out to him, the dog could be on his way back and still getting electric shocks or tangled up or injured and unable to return and being shocked into the bargain. This hadn't occured to the man at all..........that sort of people should not use these methods
frown.gif


Maybe the equipment should only be sold to qualified behaviourists or trainers who can hire it out after the proper instruction?
 

TarrSteps

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2007
Messages
10,891
Location
Surrey
Visit site
Why can one not make the same argument for whips or "big" bits for horses? Lots of people on here suggest giving a horse a significant "correction" perhaps using leverage, a chain or something else expressly designed to concentrate pressure and increase the handler's strength when "needed" - rightly or wrongly. Used improperly they cause a world of trouble, they are rarely needed as often as they are used, but once in a while they make the difference between success and failure, which for the occasional animal means the difference between life and death.

I don't think such devices should be used by the average owner but then, in my personal opinion, I'm not sure the average owner, at least without serious supervision, should have the sort of dog in the sort of situation that requires such strong intervention.
 

LynneB

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 September 2008
Messages
1,764
Location
Northamptonshire
Visit site
I agree I don't use whips, spurs or big bits on my horses for that reason. Before anyone murders me, I am not saying other people should not do something, just that I don't like forceful things. I really do think if you work on the emotional side of things - ie bond and trust building, groundwork etc, you do not have to use them.

I do agree as well that if it can rectify a situation so that a dog lives rather than is put to sleep they have a place. However, I also know that my huge male rottie can drag me all over the place and I cannot stop him no matter what I use. I refuse to use a pain infliction on him though and brought him back to the house and garden to work on his basics. I certainly could not use brute force on a horse (I just know I may lose
smile.gif
)

Again though, I am not condemning anyone else (unless they use any of above mentioned items as a form of cruelty in the wrong hands) but that is the way I am with my own animals.
 

FinnishLapphund

There's no cow on the ice
Joined
28 June 2008
Messages
11,790
Location
w(b)est coast of Sweden
Visit site
I don't like prong collars. For instance, when you use it, and the prongs are "enabled", the dog must be within a leads length (and I'm not talking about x metre of retractable lead, without one to maybe three metres normal lead). And if the dog is within a leads length, then there's other things you can do or use, such as body language/voice or Halti etc., to influence the dog.


Though I doubt I would choose to call a prong collar blatantly cruel, I prefer saying I don't like it. I think the pain easily could cause the opposite effect and maybe antagonize the dog, and if used for longer, it ought to make the dog pay less attention to the pain, and so are you back to the beginning again = you have no control over your dog.




But in the right hands (where they obviously, as ONE of Oneofthepack's example shows, not always ends up though), I do think an electric collar could be useful to train a dog within sight but still on a distance away from you.


from Sweden.
smile.gif
 

Tia

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 January 2004
Messages
26,098
Visit site
Yeah I think the biggest problem people have with collars like these, is that their little Fluffy doesn't need it, therefore it's cruel. Well little Fluffy may not be a giant and aggressive Akita, or a difficult to manage German Shepherd dog. They are tools to help (short term) the dog learn what is correct and what isn't. Long term the dog should be moved from this collar.

Every time I've seen one being used on a dog over here, the dog will also have a leash attached to it's normal leather collar, hence the prong collar is not the sole collar being used; bit like a double bridle really, and I don't have any issue with people using them either.
smile.gif


As with anything, these tools can be abused by muppets who cannot train/control their dogs properly, in which case, yes the muppet could be viewed as being cruel, but in the hands of a responsible dog owner (which thankfully the majority are) they are not. These collars are merely a training aid if used correctly.
smile.gif
 

Tia

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 January 2004
Messages
26,098
Visit site
[ QUOTE ]
I also know that my huge male rottie can drag me all over the place and I cannot stop him no matter what I use.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now someone like you would concern me greatly! I REALLY wouldn't like to meet you and your out of control dog on a walk
crazy.gif
. I hope your garden training is successful otherwise you're an accident waiting to happen.
frown.gif
 

MurphysMinder

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 November 2006
Messages
18,214
Location
Shropshire
Visit site
My mother used one of these on a GSD many years ago. Brief scenario, she took on an 18 months old GSD male, a lovely dog but had no training or socialising. He would lunge at other dogs and she struggled to hold him, a prong collar was suggested and she tried it reluctantly (this was before the days of haltis etc). The prong collar was sufficient to just teach him a few manners and she was very quickly able to discard it. Totally agree that like many other such equipment, they can be abused by idiot owners/handlers.
 

LynneB

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 September 2008
Messages
1,764
Location
Northamptonshire
Visit site
sorry Tia I didn't make myself very clear. What I meant was, he is a very powerful dog and if I had not taken him back to basics when he was younger - ie when he started pushing his luck when the hormones hit - he WOULD now drag me all over and I could do nothing to stop him. My point was meant to be if it came to a battle he would win as I am not as strong, therefore my groundwork has to be done at home. As he has had that he would not dream of dragging me about now. He has been shown at Windsor and is very well behaved and controlled, the only problem I ever had with him was when he hit adolescence.

Mind you, even if he did not know his manners, trust me he would fly by you so fast with me attached to the lead you may only feel a gust of wind as we went by
smile.gif
 

LynneB

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 September 2008
Messages
1,764
Location
Northamptonshire
Visit site
It certainly did, and as an added bonus he stopped eating me too
smile.gif


I did hear that one of his brothers was rehomed at the adolescence stage. There were a lot of problems in the family which were unforseen, ie the birth of twins which were unexpected. However, it must have been very hard on him. Bailey was a huge amount of work, completely full on for about 3 months but even at his worst times, he was still quite the mummy's boy and I would never give up on him. I chose to have a Rottie male (my female has never been any trouble at all I have to say) so it was up to me to deal with any issues that arose.

To show how far he has come, he is now nannying our new 9 week old lab puppy girl, it's lovely to see this towering lunk so gentle with her
smile.gif
 

CAYLA

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 January 2007
Messages
17,392
Location
in bed...mostly!!!
Visit site
Agree with Tia and tarrsteps....in the right hands, it's a life saving training aid, both for the animal it's used on , and to keep others and dangerous scenarios from occuring, I have no problem with check/choke chains, I hate seeing people getting pulled all over by huge out of control dogs, both their own safety i.e being pulled to the ground, or the dog causing damage to another innocent animal, these tools don't even touch the surface, esp check/choke chains....in a breed like an Akita, as Tia suggests....they are in a different league, these dogs are like bears, with the strength of a bear, as long as numpty' are allowed to own them, and turn them into the killing machines they can be, tools like this may need to be inplimented..................I have an Akita, above all the dogs I have ever owned, she is machine like in her pain threshhold, and literally had the strength of a bear when I took her on, and hated other dogs, this is a breed, u can not take a chance with, they fight to the death, and can kill in an instant, I used a choke chain on her in the beginning, and Im strong as an oxe, even for a girl
grin.gif

She is now, the most obedient dog I own, I can say, I will always own this breed, but they need a firm hand and good training impliments, if you are not aware of their strengths, they are a dog, not a pretty little pet, I have never seen a collar used on a smaller fragile breed, only the strong willfull breeds.
It would be a perfect world if these impliments, never needed to be used, but people do not head advice and it becomes to late, for a human alone to control these problem breeds, they are not a perminant tool, more a refresher, to introduce a lasting method.

They obs, can/could be abused, much the same as any most corrective aids.
 

CAYLA

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 January 2007
Messages
17,392
Location
in bed...mostly!!!
Visit site
That's the problem breezes_mum, people want a quick fix or a body bag, there are not enough, that want to work through the problem like you, they want a solution yesterday, and without these impliments...it's not possible.

U are so right.....Males are a world away from the females...rotts, that is
grin.gif
 

Tia

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 January 2004
Messages
26,098
Visit site
It's lovely to see these big breeds being so gentle with puppies. My big black shepherd dog pretty much raised our Springers puppies a year ago until they left for their new homes. She also raised my beautiful huge Akbash from a pup, and now she is raising my other (soon to be) huge Maremma pup. She has done a fantastic job though, as with her help, all of these dogs are now very easy going and calm, happy girls, which is something I HAVE to have here on my farm - can't have giant dogs attacking my liveries or any delivery drivers
wink.gif
.
 

AnnaandStella

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 January 2008
Messages
456
Visit site
Now, I understand about large dogs who are difficult, or even small dogs who are very strong e.g. staffies BUT

I have no doubt you would object to someone using a twisted wire bit with a huge amount of leverage or sharp, retractable spurs of the type which DID occur before modern opinion deemed them unnacceptable...You would advocate going back to basics, or using something softer with more practise.

This is the same with this, i feel - choke collars or haltis and harnesses are surely the same means to an end result, without resorting to this!
 

TarrSteps

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2007
Messages
10,891
Location
Surrey
Visit site
I don't train dogs and have never personally used a prong collar so cannot speak to their exact and correct use. I can, however, speak to horse training implements and I think there might be a couple of pertinent points.

First, things aren't always as they look. It's pretty obvious what sharpened spurs or edge bits (knife edge, twisted, wire, chain etc) are "for" - you can't really pretend to be doing other than trying to control a horse with more discomfort than milder bits. (Although think about having any piece or metal press on your gums, or even your nose . . . don't kid yourself that can't be made plenty painful with not a lot of effort.) In the past these bits were not "standard equipment" and they were not used for "riding on contact" (hence the fact they aren't legal for dressage), they were "emergency brakes" for people with imperfect control. Not "correct", not advisable, but pretty honestly accepted.

Many of the more modern bits/tack are, in fact, easier on the eyes but not necessarily easier on the horse. Some of the leverage produced is immense- draw reins produce something like 7:1!! Even a simple pelham increases the rider's power against the bars of the mouth by somewhere in the range of 2.5:1. Not to mention the increased torque at the poll.

But like it or not, it's a facet of human nature that people are more likely to use something carefully if it *looks* scary. Lots of people would never put a wire bit in their horses' mouths but think nothing of using combination bits for purposes other than what they are designed for. (Again, I am not categorically against tools used properly, just making an analogy.) So one could argue that a prong collar LOOKS like a big, possibly hurtful deal so people will use it more carefully than say, an electric collar.

Another analogy could be a chain over a difficult to lead horse's nose. It *seems* much worse than a rope but USED PROPERLY can actually function more effectively. First it "clicks" through the ring rather than sliding so with controlled pressure it is actually easier to regulate pressure. Secondly the noise of the chain clicking, again used properly, gives the horse a "per signal" and a chance to change it's behaviour BEFORE the discomfort, which is exactly what a training tool is supposed to accomplish. Also, it's obvious and "looks bad". I'm not sure something more innocuous looking, like a chiffney where any bruising is out of sight, is any less uncomfortable (one could argue it wouldn't work if it was) it's just less obviously so. Same with pressure halters and similar - they are *supposed* to cause discomfort. That's how they allow a very small person to control a very large horse that's already been taught that people can't control it. Obviously it shouldn't be that way but when it gets there sometimes safe options are limited.

I think the point it proper tools used correctly should IMPROVE the situation. They should be used less as time goes by, not more. They might still be an "safety strap" (as with the two collar example) but the goal of a good trainer is to eventually be able to use LESS force. Alas, when things have already gone very wrong and with animals that are not "average" this might take a little more than the average owner should - or wants - to be dealing with.
 

Goya

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 July 2008
Messages
2,937
Location
Northamptonshire
Visit site
as others have said, these prong collars are probably OK in the right hands and with well informed guidance from someone such as Cesar Milan. Not that I would use one though.
 

sarahhelen1977

Well-Known Member
Joined
29 September 2008
Messages
685
Location
Hertfordshire
www.adonnis.co.uk
I am of the opinion that a more 'severe' piece of equipment used effectively, efficiently and with correct timing is often less harsh than a 'mild' piece of equipment abused. I would prefer to see a dog walking to heel on a loose lead in a check chain (they are after all designed to check the dog, then be released - not choke it) than dragging its handler along in a flat collar - wheezing and choking!!
Every piece of equipment has its place, as long as it is used correctly by experienced hands I see no problem with it.
The harshest bit you can find can be kinder with a rider with soft hands, than the softest bit with a rider with harsh hands.
 

Onyxia

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 May 2005
Messages
10,571
Location
Yorkshire
Visit site
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I think the biggest problem people have with collars like these, is that their little Fluffy doesn't need it, therefore it's cruel. Well little Fluffy may not be a giant and aggressive Akita, or a difficult to manage German Shepherd dog. They are tools to help (short term) the dog learn what is correct and what isn't. Long term the dog should be moved from this collar.

Every time I've seen one being used on a dog over here, the dog will also have a leash attached to it's normal leather collar, hence the prong collar is not the sole collar being used; bit like a double bridle really, and I don't have any issue with people using them either.
smile.gif


As with anything, these tools can be abused by muppets who cannot train/control their dogs properly, in which case, yes the muppet could be viewed as being cruel, but in the hands of a responsible dog owner (which thankfully the majority are) they are not. These collars are merely a training aid if used correctly.
smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
Baaaaa
tongue.gif


I was looking at one of these for my aunts dane this afternoon and intending to use it as Tia discribed-a back up when she doesnt listen to voice or normal collar.
She is a big dog and would be a danger to me,herself and anyone we met out if she wouldnt stop/listent o me and thats not on.
We are going back to basics,treating her like a pup that needs to learn how to walk on the lead again and I have no reasont o think the prong will be used for long or much at all during the time she is wearing it.

Used properly,most of these gadgets have their place.
In the wrong hands,they can be a nightmare for the dog
frown.gif
 
Top