Cruising Clones

[AdorableAlice]

Playing with fire or a good idea ? Interesting article on HH news.

The forelimb on both of the clones is poor and neither horse is attractive or correct.

 

[only_me]

It's taken them a while to post a story about it - I posted the link on here to the Irish field article about it 3 days ago!

 

[Thriller]

I'm not a fan of cloning. I just don't see the necessity. Crusing was a good horse but there will always be a better one. a clone has only got DNA in common nothing else. The clones might grow different, think different, be a very expensive old nag, they will never be the same horse.

 

[Sukistokes2]

Well the proof of the pudding will be in the eating! I am not sure how many will be interested in using an untried horse. Cloning does not give you exact copies so there are no garantees. It would really be like using a son of cruising, because that horse was an individual and a product of his time and upbringing and experiences. These horses will be individuals in there own right so there is no certaintainy they would be successful.
Cloning is neither right or wrong, the way that we use it will determine that. I did not think that either horse was that bad.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

A little worrying given the possibility of degradation of the genes. Dolly the sheep's clone had chronic arthritis, didn't it?

 

[Escapade]

I'm going to copy/paste what I wrote on another forum, I don't have a great knowledge on where we are with cloning so I'd love opinions/info etc.
_____________________________

I'd like to throw my thoughts out there, a major ramble but any input is welcome whether you agree or disagree with me! I speak purely from a Layman's point of view, it should be noted. This goes on to be about cloning in general, not all of it is strictly relevant to Cruising. If anything I say is inaccurate, please correct me. I am very happy to be wrong on this topic!

Cruising was foaled in 1985, I believe. That makes his DNA - the DNA of these rising 3yo horses - over 30 years old. To what extent has this DNA been damaged or suffered mutations over the years? I'm not a scientist so I don't know if that's even the case, but it certainly doesn't seem to be without significant risk. Yes, the horses appear normal, but could they be harbouring unseen genetic disruptions? What could this mean for their progeny? What is the long-term survivability/fertility/soundness etc. of cloned horses, their progeny and subsequent generations? Is it all sunshine and roses as some seem to make out? Or could it potentially have serious consequences for the sport horse industry in X years down the line?

As [username] says, we are a small island with a not insignificant amount of Cruising progeny. How is it more beneficial to keep using the same old DNA (in the form of these clones) for breeding, rather than existing Cruising/other Irish offspring to try to improve the quality of our horses? It takes generations, yes, but if we further reduce genetic diversity we will have an awful lot of trouble with soundness and other ailments in years to come.

To the best of my knowledge, it has not been disclosed whether these horses are going to be inspected, regardless they will be bred this season. I don't believe there is even a requirement that they be inspected? (Off on a tangent here) Similarly with the clones of geldings, where even the original horse was not inspected. Having the same genetics as an international horse is nowhere near a good enough reason for this, in my opinion. Especially in the case of clones of high performance geldings-these horses are not gelded for fun, and were likely to have been gelded as they were deemed unsuitable for breeding. There have in the past been happy accidents that reached high level competition when it was not expected, but this does not mean that they should be bred from.
As a matter of interest, what kind of horse has E.T Cryozootech turned out to be? I haven't seen or heard anything since his early photos, and to be perfectly candid, it was glaringly obvious why he was the clone of a gelding!

Now, we have 2xGem Twist, 2xJazz, 2xCruising, Top Gun/Levisto/Chellano/Air Jordan Alpha Z, Ratina Alpha/Beta/Gamma Z, to name very, very few...it's Xerox for horses! If we keep breeding from the same old blood, are we going to truly progress in sport horse breeding? Is it not an admission of failure?

Okay, back to the beginning with the genetic make-up of the cloned horses. If we have the answers and it's all safe as houses, great stuff altogether! Howandever...without knowing these answers myself and having the business of cloning totally transparent*, I have a big fear that as more horses are cloned=fall in price of cloning, making such horses available to the public for breeding could, potentially, result in catastrophic failure. It may or may not be a high risk activity, but it is absolutely not a no-risk activity, when compared with the usual breeding process.

*I recall reading last September that biopsies had been taken from Cruising, but there were no immediate plans to do anything with them. Arish and Encore were already 2 years of age. I know many people don't have a problem with breeders keeping their business their own, but when it comes to cloning horses that will become part of Ireland's breeding programme, I certainly do.

aaaaaaand breathe...If you made it through all of that - well done! I deeply hope that my concerns on this prove to never be the case.

 

[Tobiano]

It seems to me that we don't understand cloning well enough and therefore breeding from a clone is a very risky prospect. Don't like the idea of it and I don't see why it is necessary. I. Concept every generation is a higher form of evolution than the last so why go back a step?

Although I might be tempted by a Grange Bouncer clone. Hypocrite!

 

[AdorableAlice]

Very interesting comments Escapade and my thoughts too.

 

[blitznbobs]

It's all wrong. DNA doesn't get old... It's made new by each cell and your own Dna is really really old it's passed down thru the generation.

BUT Eugenics is wrong... This is pure eugenics and we are playing with serious fire so we can have what?.??? A cure for cancer? Save the world from starving? Stop climate change and save the planet? NOPE so we can have pretty horses that jump well.... Which we have hundreds of anyway...

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

 

[Nudibranch]

Mitochondrial DNA is passed down "through the generations" on the mother's side, "ordinary" DNA is not. In normal reproduction the baby has a new set of DNA of its own. A clone has copies.

 

[popsdosh]

It's all wrong. DNA doesn't get old... It's made new by each cell and your own Dna is really really old it's passed down thru the generation.

BUT Eugenics is wrong... This is pure eugenics and we are playing with serious fire so we can have what?.??? A cure for cancer? Save the world from starving? Stop climate change and save the planet? NOPE so we can have pretty horses that jump well.... Which we have hundreds of anyway...

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

I am sorry but cloning has real issues using DNA from older animals as the scientist at Edinburgh said about dolly she was a lamb that was already adult, all her siblings died at a younger age and they could never replicate her survival time ,this is the reason up to now most clones have died at a young age.

What will these two young horses bring to the world of horse breeding DNA from 30 yrs ago ,we should have moved on by now.
In cattle which I am heavily involved in you keep a young herd and cull out the older ones because the speed of genetic improvement is so great. Having a cow cloned would mean going backwards.

 

[HashRouge]

I think it's a bit odd and I can't really understand why people would want to use untried stallions just because they have the same DNA as Cruising. I'd like to see if they have even half his ability first! I think it's just an attempt to cash in on his name tbh.

 

[dizzyneddy]

I haven't any real comments other than it's messing with nature.

 

[Nudibranch]

BUT Eugenics is wrong... This is pure eugenics and we are playing with serious fire so we can have what?.??? A cure for cancer? Save the world from starving? Stop climate change and save the planet? NOPE so we can have pretty horses that jump well.... Which we have hundreds of anyway...

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

Incidentally, selective breeding of any kind is eugenics. We've been doing it for thousands of years. The difference is that most people draw the line at using it with the human race.

Some aspects of cloning may prove very useful in medicine, however I agree that cloning for the purposes mentioned on this thread, ie whole animals, is unecessary and a backwards step.

 

[ozpoz]

I would avoid a clone for no other reason than I think all life should evolve without skipping the
few phases that we don't know so much about, really.
It is something I feel uncomfortable with and there is no particular basis for this feeling.

 

[Escapade]

See, I'm finding it very hard to find accurate information on how the cloned genetics actually work in the horse. Some say this, some say that, some have issues and some don't, shortened telomeres seem to be behind cell aging, but then again they might not be after all...I know that cloned horses seem to have fewer issues than cloned sheep or cattle, but does that mean there aren't issues? I simply want answers, but no one seems to want to provide answers other than "oh, isn't this great?"
Prometea was cloned in 2003. For me, that's not long enough to have it all figured out.

 

[stormox]

Its just experimentation IMHO. And why clone 'Cruising' anyway? He wasn't the greatest horse Ireland ever produced, and so many mares have him in their bloodlines they wouldn't be able to have foals by 'Arish' and 'Encore' as it would amount to close inbreeding.
There are also rumours that Cruisings pedigree wasn't what it was said to be- 'Sea Spray' was very possibly part Connemara, not pure ID.
Remember this was way before DNA testing, microchipping etc.
Surely using clones will deplete the already small gene pool of the I.D. Thank goodness as even AI isn't allowed in racehorse breeding it wont be used for TBs!.

 

[Escapade]

According to what was said on Ear to the Ground last night, because "he's the only horse in Ireland that has five stars for his eventing progeny and for his show jumping progeny [...] and the traditional Irish horse which has been phenomenal over the last 70 years in putting Ireland to the forefront of breeding, what we now call Irish Sport Horses is gone. And we badly need the genes of Cruising to keep that going."

 

[Pennythetank]

Its just experimentation IMHO. And why clone 'Cruising' anyway? He wasn't the greatest horse Ireland ever produced, and so many mares have him in their bloodlines they wouldn't be able to have foals by 'Arish' and 'Encore' as it would amount to close inbreeding.
There are also rumours that Cruisings pedigree wasn't what it was said to be- 'Sea Spray' was very possibly part Connemara, not pure ID.
Remember this was way before DNA testing, microchipping etc.
Surely using clones will deplete the already small gene pool of the I.D. Thank goodness as even AI isn't allowed in racehorse breeding it wont be used for TBs!.

His sire was called Sea Crest....
Personally I will be following this with interest. I want to see the talent these colts posses and in what way will the cloning affect them. They obviously will not perform the same as cruising, nature vs nurture and all that. I do think that who ever has the task of breaking and riding them will be under enormous pressure.
Also I don't believe that (for the first 5+ yrs anyway) anyone breeding from them will do so because they are quality stallions in their own right. They will be bred from (until they have their own competition records etc) because it is essentially Cruising being bred.
Not brilliant for genetic diversity over here in Ireland but definitely interesting to see how it will play out.

 

[Escapade]

His sire was called Sea Crest....

Sea Spray was Sea Crest's dam

 

[Pennythetank]

Sea Spray was Sea Crest's dam

Whoops 😆

 

[Escapade]

I'm too late to edit it into one of my earlier posts, but there's a nice little video about them here, by Irishsport.tv https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3ckX-PdUnI

 

[Annagain]

I read a really interesting article the other day about how scientific advances (in general not in the horsey world) are actually beginning to reverse natural selection. The example it gave was people with Cystic Fibrosis who, until relatively recently, would die at a young age and wouldn't reproduce. These people are now, happily, living much longer, managing their symptoms much better and some are having children and therefore potentially passing on their genes. Many screen embryos, but many don't. (I'm not saying this is right or wrong by the way, just that it is happening.) The other example they gave was hereditary infertility which sounds impossible, but is now starting to be relatively common in adults who were conceived by IVF in the 70s and 80s.

You could of course argue that the advances in human knowledge and understanding which are creating the medical and technological advances that make living with serious conditions possible is a form of natural selection in itself. It is certainly ensuring the ongoing survival and dominance of the human race over others if not improving the quality of the human race.

 

[stormox]

So, theoretically, it would be possible to clone a great performance gelding, leave the sons entire and then you would (genetically) be able to reproduce having foals by this gelding......

 

[ljohnsonsj]

So, theoretically, it would be possible to clone a great performance gelding, leave the sons entire and then you would (genetically) be able to reproduce having foals by this gelding......

Which if possible would make millions from Valegro. But I don't agree with cloning at all.

 

[Escapade]

So, theoretically, it would be possible to clone a great performance gelding, leave the sons entire and then you would (genetically) be able to reproduce having foals by this gelding......

Not only theoretically, but in reality that is happening - e.g. Gem Twist has Gemini and Murka's Gem (I think Gemini offspring will start to come through next year), E.T FRH has E.T Cryozootech, Tamarillo has Tomatillo, Rusty 47 has Rusty Clone 1 and Rusty Clone 2...I think I've made my thoughts on this clear in earlier posts

 

[Jazzy B]

I would avoid a clone for no other reason than I think all life should evolve without skipping the
few phases that we don't know so much about, really.
It is something I feel uncomfortable with and there is no particular basis for this feeling.

Agree, agree, agree!!! Makes me feel very uncomfortable too!