Cruppers and saddle breeching - query for saddle historians.

[pennyturner]

My shetland has no wither at all, and so it's next to impossible to stop the saddle slipping forwards - especially with little riders who tend to perch in canter.

I've fitted a D to his saddle and made up a crupper from a driving dock and bit of spare strapping, since the use of a crupper with a saddle seems to have become totally obsolete and there are very few about, let alone in mini sizes - about six inches from saddle to dock.

Back in the middle ages, no palfrey would be complete without a crupper and saddle breeching - it seems to me that we have lost something quite useful. Is there a reason (other than improved saddle design) that they were abandoned?

 

[ozpoz]

I'm not a saddle historian but i think they have fallen out of favour because they are bio mechanically horrible!

 

[The Xmas Furry]

OP, I've always used a crupper on tiny ponies, especially if using a Willis pad or similar felt saddle type.
We would remove them for flat showing the Shetties, but always in place at home & for any jumping.

You are right tho, haven't seen a crupper around for a long time tho, mind you - I haven't seen many Willis pads or true felt saddles about either.

 

[ester]

I didn't know saddle breeching actually existed!

 

[PonyclubmumZ]

We used to have one our shetland, he had daisy reins on too when my son was little, without the crupper he would put his head down and the saddle would shoot forward sending my son over his head!! I have only seen a crupper on a shetland and perhaps a small section A nothing bigger. They don't feel very "horse friendly" really but needs must with a small pony and little child.

 

[Orangehorse]

I have got one knocking around in my tack box, I decided to keep it "just in case." Better to use a crupper, so long as pony has tiime to get used to it, rather than end up with the saddle half way up the pony's neck.
They are used as part of the driving harness.

As for the "history" - they were used to keep the saddle secure for the knight riding into battle, so there was one less thing for them to worry about, I guess.

 

[pennyturner]

I haven't seen many Willis pads or true felt saddles about either.

Are Willis pads the flat treeless felt pads with stirrup bars and a handle at the front often described as 'donkey/pony pad'? I've got a couple in the tack room. They're great for the rider as a transition to bareback or when you haven't got a saddle to fit.

I just had a quick look online. It seems saddle breeching is alive and well in the US, where they use it on riding mules - presumably they're built like my shetland...

 

[pennyturner]

I'm not a saddle historian but i think they have fallen out of favour because they are bio mechanically horrible!

Ozpoz, could you explain your comment for me. Surely it's better than the saddle slipping forward onto the shoulders and wither? Why is it different to a chest-plate to prevent a saddle slipping back?

 

[The Xmas Furry]

pennyturner, yes - they had 'proper' stirrup bars on, not just rounded hooks or D's

 

[cremedemonthe]

Funny as not long ago (80's and up to mid 90's) they were common place and I was always fitting Crupper Dees on to the trees of pony saddles, could do them in my sleep, then it stopped.
Haven't done one for at least 15 years.
I think you'll find the reason they needed saddle breeching back in the day was because the saddles were so much heavier and when in combat whether with lance or sword they need a solid saddle that wouldn't be knocked off balance or made to slip if it came in to contact with a blow from an adversary.

 

[pennyturner]

Funny as not long ago (80's and up to mid 90's) they were common place and I was always fitting Crupper Dees on to the trees of pony saddles, could do them in my sleep, then it stopped.
Haven't done one for at least 15 years.

I cheated by screwing a loop to the tree at the back. Didn't seem to be any other way of doing it on an old flat saddle.
I did think about attaching a driving crupper to the d's at the front, i.e. right through the gullet under the saddle... but I figured it would let the back of the saddle lift, making it into a kiddie catapult

 

[Equi]

OP I have sent you a private message.

 

[Dizzydancer]

Iv just found one on ingatestone saddlery its http://www.ingatestonesaddlery.co.uk/eclipse-nylon-crupper.html#

This Is what we used on my pony- I didn't want to have his saddle altered so used this as it attaches to girth straps and it does the job for not a bad price!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Portuguese traditional saddles use a crupper. As for breeching, I suspect its easier to come by in any country that uses mules/donkeys a fair bit. I have Exmoors and some of those need cruppers. My Exmoor that I backed last year has a good shoulder and no need for a crupper but have got him used to a IV Horse one as am contemplating driving him at some point.

 

[cremedemonthe]

I cheated by screwing a loop to the tree at the back. Didn't seem to be any other way of doing it on an old flat saddle.
I did think about attaching a driving crupper to the d's at the front, i.e. right through the gullet under the saddle... but I figured it would let the back of the saddle lift, making it into a kiddie catapult

lol, yes it might. I screw them on to the tree just below the facing on the rear of the panel, meaning I have to drop the panel out at the rear. Lower you can get the better.
Oz

 

[sbloom]

Not good biomechanically as others have said, we didn't used to understand this stuff. Saddle design and fitting has improved in many ways, true we have lost some of it, but we're all trying to regain what was lost (half panels, upswept non-gussetted panels in my case) to make sure we can fit these tricky wide flat backs. Not needed a crupper in 6 years of fitting very difficult ponies! Breeching is another matter and may be used on endurance horses where very steep hills etc are encountered. Again, not had to have a client use it, but it seems a valid piece of kit in some circumstances.

 

[pennyturner]

Not good biomechanically as others have said, we didn't used to understand this stuff. Saddle design and fitting has improved in many ways, true we have lost some of it, but we're all trying to regain what was lost (half panels, upswept non-gussetted panels in my case) to make sure we can fit these tricky wide flat backs. Not needed a crupper in 6 years of fitting very difficult ponies! Breeching is another matter and may be used on endurance horses where very steep hills etc are encountered. Again, not had to have a client use it, but it seems a valid piece of kit in some circumstances.

All hills are steep when you're 9hh... and his saddle gets pushed forward because he bucks like a steam piston
He's our 'second pony'. Once they think they know it all (on our old Dartmoor), Bruin teaches them to RIDE.

 

[pennyturner]

Iv just found one on ingatestone saddlery its http://www.ingatestonesaddlery.co.uk/eclipse-nylon-crupper.html#

This Is what we used on my pony- I didn't want to have his saddle altered so used this as it attaches to girth straps and it does the job for not a bad price!

That looks like a handy piece of kit. Job's done now, but helpful for anyone else with the same issue - it's be easier getting a saddle to stay put on one of the pigs!