CS yesterday-please comments, condition, expression etc:

[charlie76]

And you do have to consider that most horses competing at that level are bred and produced from day one with Dressage in mind whereas this horse was bred and trained for a different job. Op has done well to get him to this level and I am not taking that away but maybe its too much too soon. He is seven., even he was competing at medium this soon it would be an achievement. You have plenty of time.

 

[AmyMay]

Something I find quite interesting in this forum is that if anyone has the slightest problem with their horse they are always jumped on for doing too much too early yet there are some 9yo that are competing at the very highest level in all disciplines. It is not generally considered maybe the horse is just a tricky horse and just needs a bit more work than the easier going types of horses. Very rarely people seem to be applauded for persisting with a tricky horse (except for after the horse has begun to go well) and are just faced with judgement and criticism instead. PS is obviously aware of the problems and is asking for help and the horse seems to want for nothing and have the best possible care and I for one think she is doing a great job with an obviously tricky horse.

I can't agree. This forum (CR) is hugely supportive of its posters. I've rarely seen a criticism that the horse is 'too young' and have seen plenty of platitudes towards those who persist with a genuinely tricky horse.

 

[AmyMay]

Agreed! Valegro was 9 when he came out on the International GP scene...........didn't hear anyone saying he was too young.

I don't see how you can possibly compare Valegro and CS's horse.......

 

[Pasha]

I agree with Tarrsteps and KatB - yes there have been loads of useful suggestions on this thread but I think you need to revisit with your trainer (or their trainer) - someone who's trained dozens of horses up to and beyond PSG and take their advice! They will know where you are going wrong or if it's too much for him and can put a plan of action together for you.

Good luck - I hope to see a Red Rosette PSG post in the future from you

 

[charlie76]

Omg. You can't compare valegro and the posters horse. Valegro was produced by the best riders in the world and if any of their horses did show this behavior in the ring you would never know. They would simply be moved on to do a job they will do, we would never hear of them.

 

[toomanyhorses26]

I have a little TB mare that I purchased a year ago from the meat man who is beautifully bred and on the face of things should be a superstar but its what goes on between her ears that stops her. I spent most of last year on the floor,flying through the air and generally not where you should be on a horse and we went so far back to basics that she was practically rebroken (obv not suggesting this for CS ) but just by taking that pressure off of what she had come to expect from being ridden.

Obv given what you have said hacking isnt an option but that was the thing that worked for her we hacked and hacked and hacked until she was happy to take a contact and to keep going forward rather than immediately chucking her head between her knees the moment there was any rein contact. After the year from hell as such she came out on sunday and won her riding horse class - if i hadnt backed off and literally taken things as fast as she wanted she would def be ina can of pedigree by now.

You obv want to do the best by Star ,its obv through your posts how much you think of him and just by taking that pressure off both you and him - stay at a lower level,dressage to music etc i think you will find yourself with a more mentally established horse. My other TB is 11 this year and i have to be honest its only in the last year that the brain has caught up with the body as such and he is far far less reactive/spooky than he was this time last year - i havent done anything different just him growing up

Kepp on posting I love to see the progress and your journey with him gives me something to aim for

 

[Leg_end]

no idea where you have the idea he's bolting in the warm up, please point out where ive said that?

Maybe bolting was the wrong definition, you actually said "ugly galloping about" which isnt quite the same, however I would be just as displeased with "ugly galloping about" and that does not show a happy horse.

ive also said he's seen the vet twice since that work up, and they saw no further reason to follow it up with more nerve blocks etc, and although i accept they are not gods, on a horse that shows no a single *off* step,is NEVER back sore, and performs well at home, what exactly should i be checking? the vet has seen the horse in the flesh.

I dont know.. as i said i'm throwing it out there as per your request for ideas. Its clear the horse is going through something, whether that is physical or mental, and as Charlie76 said if you check it and rule it out you wouldn't get replies such as mine and others. Surely it must be at the back of your mind that there *could* be something going on?

 

[TarrSteps]

I take BeckyC's point but I'd make two in reply.

One, it's not the tricky ones coming out at 9. The tricky ones are still at home, being tricky. A handful of horses - most of them purpose bred, I might add - find advanced work very easy. They have the natural strength, suppleness and trainability to need relatively little preparation. That's what those Young Horse classes are designed to spot and many of the real talents don't even do those, because they're home learning to be GP horses.

Two, a nine year old coming out at GP is NEVER the first horse someone has made to that level. And, I'd hazard a guess, is probably under the guidance of someone who has made a score of them if not more.

I get your point, that it takes work to reach a goal but I would say the horses you reference are actually 'easy' at least by the standards of their chosen discipline. They are not working harder, they are working easier.

 

[BeckyC]

I take BeckyC's point but I'd make two in reply.

One, it's not the tricky ones coming out at 9. The tricky ones are still at home, being tricky. A handful of horses - most of them purpose bred, I might add - find advanced work very easy. They have the natural strength, suppleness and trainability to need relatively little preparation. That's what those Young Horse classes are designed to spot and many of the real talents don't even do those, because they're home learning to be GP horses.

Two, a nine year old coming out at GP is NEVER the first horse someone has made to that level. And, I'd hazard a guess, is probably under the guidance of someone who has made a score of them if not more.

I get your point, that it takes work to reach a goal but I would say the horses you reference are actually 'easy' at least by the standards of their chosen discipline. They are not working harder, they are working easier.

I completely agree with those points it just seems like PS is constantly jumped on when she is just requesting for help with many people reiterating the same point again and again which is just bound to annoy her as its irritating the crap out of me and im not even her some horses also no matter what level they are doing will always be quirky, i have a ISH which is laid back to the point of being horizontal no matter what you do with it and i have my nutty TB who can throw a tantrum at even the easiest dressage test.

 

[Tempi]

I don't see how you can possibly compare Valegro and CS's horse.......

I was wondering that aswell..........

 

[Leg_end]

some horses also no matter what level they are doing will always be quirky, i have a ISH which is laid back to the point of being horizontal no matter what you do with it and i have my nutty TB who can throw a tantrum at even the easiest dressage test.

And that's the point, I bet you manage them completely differently and take the quirkiness into consideration - you should be able to do much more with the laid back horse because training him is 'easier'.

I completely agree with those points it just seems like PS is constantly jumped on when she is just requesting for help with many people reiterating the same point again and again which is just bound to annoy her as its irritating the crap out of me and im not even her

The reason PS gets the responses she does is because she asks for advice, only aknowledges the responses she wants to hear and gets shirty with people who reiterate points maybe thinking there's strength in numbers or she hasnt seen the original reply.

People on forums will always reiterate what previous posters have said, the same as in RL. I am sure PS doesn't have an issue with it when people are complimenting her over and over again

 

[Festive_Felicitations]

Nothing to add that hasn't allready been said and discussed - other than he doesnt like to make life easy does he?

Oh and I LOVE this picture! I think he looks relaxed, happy, and it is just generally a beautiful picture - his outline etc

 

[AmyMay]

I completely agree with those points it just seems like PS is constantly jumped on

Again, I don't see that. She has in fact opened what is very, very interesting discussion - when all the points are taken on board.

she is just requesting for help with many people reiterating the same point again and again

Which is also part of an active discussion.

 

[Brecon]

just thinking a break could help? He has done a lot without much of a break from the sound of it and you say yourself you cant use hacking or jumping even to do this. My own horse often goes far better after some time off even if its only a week or so. another friends dressage horse had just got to PSG when was turned away for a period of time, he was always prone to tantrums in the changes but having come back into work is going far better and doing them very easily. just a thought espeically as hes come up the levels so quickly.

 

[NR99]

CS, I'm not going to get into the level of work load you are asking in relation to what you are aiming to achieve as I'm not experienced at this level.

I just wanted to give you our experience of a horse who acted in a very similar way to CS. He was a 7yo TB who could worked easily at novice level, he would jump and he would hack and seemed to enjoy all. However he would get 45 mins through a flat lesson and be working really well and then suddenly explode. He would always do his first test nicely in a comp and then have a real tantrum in the second. He would get half way round the XC course and then explode, but would not be nappy and would happily carry on away from home. He would not do it every time and never if he was on an easy hack or not being asked to work to hard on the flat.

He was fairly new to us and at first we thought he was just challenging R, but eventually I concluded he was in pain. He would always once he had exploded and generally unseated R stop until she got her self organised and stirrups back like he generally did not want to hurt her. But if asked to work again he would try and start up though he could be got through it. It took ages to convince the vets it was pain related as he would always trot up sound, eventually they agreed he showed lameness all round after much investigation and persuasion from me. He was diagnosed with PSD and they were going to operate, then a specialist looked at his MRI and picked up issues in the front feet and they said they wouldn't operate. We decided to give him a year off, but 8 months later he was so uncomfortable in the field, we had to say goodbye.

I'm not in any way suggesting CS has such serious issues, but I really think you should consider getting a more constructive work up done. I know it is not cheap but you could end up spending a fortune trying to self diagnose, is he insured?

I also think Tarrsteps is right, talk to people experienced in your discipline at this level the people on this forum who despite meaning well do not have the experience to draw on to give you thorough advice.

Additionally, if your budget is really an issue then perhaps you could try Booboos idea of competing HC on painkillers, though take into account you should do a couple of times because as you will know horses can exhibit signs through memory. This will give you something to talk to your trainer and vet about.

Good luck, I hope you get to the bottom of it.

 

[Halfstep]

In this situation after ruling out physical problems, I think you've got two options:
Drop down a level or two, ease the work and build his strength and ring confidence, keep playing psg movements at home but make comps super easy.
Or: send him to a v experienced professional (preferably female so not a strong big man as you are quite slight) to ride at psg and see what happens. I could recommend someone if you want.

 

[kerilli]

In this situation after ruling out physical problems, I think you've got two options:
Drop down a level or two, ease the work and build his strength and ring confidence, keep playing psg movements at home but make comps super easy.
Or: send him to a v experienced professional (preferably female so not a strong big man as you are quite slight) to ride at psg and see what happens. I could recommend someone if you want.

This looks like really really good advice to me.
TS's posts as ever contain a huge amount of serious horsesense, wisdom and experience.
The reason a lot of us keep on saying that it seems a lot to ask of a 7 yr old TB who keeps chucking his toys out of the pram is because, bluntly, it is!

 

[Aces_High]

Hi PS - I hope all is good! Anyway you know how well I think you've done with Star but a couple of things ping to mind. Firstly He's a TB and if he's quirky he'll always be quirky but as you are doing, you're looking out of the box and trying ways to kid him around to your way of thinking - best way with a quirky one. Secondly I know some horses just don't hack but I am very surprised that he doesn't/won't having been in training. I know you don't want people bleating on about this subject but a racehorses life is basically hacking with some hard work in the middle! I know that Star is a rare one but I am yet to meet a racehorse who doesn't hack. (You know that all my experience is in racing!). I understand his whipping round, rearing and car attacking isn't ideal though! I am lucky as the traffic around us is mimimal and very good with horses broncing down the road! Could you take him and Bruce to some local woods and just unbox and go for an amble around? I currently ride a few horses who do not hack and have been told that due to my relaxed attitude that is why they chill and get on with it. It's a real racing way to ride but loose rein and just act as if nothing will faze you. You can generally tell if they are going to do something and that's when I pop a finger or two through my neckstrap so if they do go tonto I have my safety net in place. Give them a few pats on the neck and continue - sounds stupid but when they are wired and fit and ready to run it's unfair to reprimand when they're having an easy day. I doubt I am describing it very well - but that's the way the racehorses are ridden. I am just trying to explain it from a racing point of view to see if that unravels anything - everything is very relaxed and chilled apart from work mornings and on the course. I am not sure if you watched Frankel yesterday but the main aim in racing is to get a horse to relax, being too wound up means expending too much energy at the wrong time. Frankel has changed hugely from his 3 to 4 year old career and was ambling around the paddock like a hack yesterday! For the chasing of anything out of 'his field'. I have had a number of TB's who do this - even the Princess does this and has killed several pheasants and unfortunately broke the shoulder of my old yard cat - but that's by the by. Anyway back to the dressage - I don't know enough about it to comment!! I wouldn't be expecting to see much change in a horses condition in a week! I would be giving a change in feed 3-4 weeks before I'd expect to see/feel any marked improvement etc. Also for what it's worth I do think he looked better on he Winergy. But as you know he's a TB and a drop in work etc they drop muscle, shape etc very quickly!!! Also my favourite photo from this selection is the one that Felicity shared above. He looks happy, relaxed, concentrating and listening to you. Lastly huge congratulations on how far you've got and are going with Star - I think an inspiration to a lot of people on here who have kindly homed a racehorse off the track (we need more of you!!!). Very lastly I've been watching the Olympic dressage and I will be expecting to see you in Rio

 

[Lady La La]

Hi PS - I hope all is good! Anyway you know how well I think you've done with Star but a couple of things ping to mind. Firstly He's a TB and if he's quirky he'll always be quirky but as you are doing, you're looking out of the box and trying ways to kid him around to your way of thinking - best way with a quirky one. Secondly I know some horses just don't hack but I am very surprised that he doesn't/won't having been in training. I know you don't want people bleating on about this subject but a racehorses life is basically hacking with some hard work in the middle! I know that Star is a rare one but I am yet to meet a racehorse who doesn't hack. (You know that all my experience is in racing!). I understand his whipping round, rearing and car attacking isn't ideal though! I am lucky as the traffic around us is mimimal and very good with horses broncing down the road! Could you take him and Bruce to some local woods and just unbox and go for an amble around? I currently ride a few horses who do not hack and have been told that due to my relaxed attitude that is why they chill and get on with it. It's a real racing way to ride but loose rein and just act as if nothing will faze you. You can generally tell if they are going to do something and that's when I pop a finger or two through my neckstrap so if they do go tonto I have my safety net in place. Give them a few pats on the neck and continue - sounds stupid but when they are wired and fit and ready to run it's unfair to reprimand when they're having an easy day. I doubt I am describing it very well - but that's the way the racehorses are ridden. I am just trying to explain it from a racing point of view to see if that unravels anything - everything is very relaxed and chilled apart from work mornings and on the course. I am not sure if you watched Frankel yesterday but the main aim in racing is to get a horse to relax, being too wound up means expending too much energy at the wrong time. Frankel has changed hugely from his 3 to 4 year old career and was ambling around the paddock like a hack yesterday! For the chasing of anything out of 'his field'. I have had a number of TB's who do this - even the Princess does this and has killed several pheasants and unfortunately broke the shoulder of my old yard cat - but that's by the by. Anyway back to the dressage - I don't know enough about it to comment!! I wouldn't be expecting to see much change in a horses condition in a week! I would be giving a change in feed 3-4 weeks before I'd expect to see/feel any marked improvement etc. Also for what it's worth I do think he looked better on he Winergy. But as you know he's a TB and a drop in work etc they drop muscle, shape etc very quickly!!! Also my favourite photo from this selection is the one that Felicity shared above. He looks happy, relaxed, concentrating and listening to you. Lastly huge congratulations on how far you've got and are going with Star - I think an inspiration to a lot of people on here who have kindly homed a racehorse of the track (we need more of you!!!). Very lastly I've been watching the Olympic dressage and I will be expecting to see you in Rio

What a great, great post!

 

[Munchkin]

I'm another who suspects you are asking too much too soon from this horse. He wasn't bred or originally trained for this job - comparing him to other young GP horses is ridiculous.

My problem here is that you are not prepared to even examine this possibility, as you seem so desperate to be able to say "I compete my ex-racehorse in GP dressage." However, you will be doing no such thing if you continue to pressure and potentially sour him. What is the rush?

Why not listen to what the vast majority are suggesting... and just TRY backing off for a while? Work on perfecting the basics, and on doing some of the other things you talked about (field work, pole work etc.) for a few months... simply to SEE if it makes a difference?

If, when you build him back up, it has made no difference whatsoever, then at least you've written off the possibility and you are free to come back here with an "I told you so" post (and I'm sure you will ). But you're then left feeling more comfortable that this is an attitude/feed/veterinary issue, rather than a maturity/stress one.

I fully expect you to ignore everything I've just said, but to be honest I'm more concerned about the welfare of your horse than your ego.

Also, yes, CS DOES look more relaxed in some of the pics at the beginning of this thread... but they are just moments in time and shouldn't be such a rarity as they seem to be.

 

[charlie76]

Munchkin, exactly !

 

[MillionDollar]

Omg. You can't compare valegro and the posters horse. Valegro was produced by the best riders in the world and if any of their horses did show this behavior in the ring you would never know. They would simply be moved on to do a job they will do, we would never hear of them.

Why ever not? What a load of tosh!

Maybe, like I said, Star is just a bit of a stubborn git and just needs pushing through!? I'm pretty positive PS had explosive moments at every level until he was established!!!! I bet he wouldn't explode in a Elementary or Medium test.

 

[caterpillar]

Why ever not? What a load of tosh!

Maybe, like I said, Star is just a bit of a stubborn git and just needs pushing through!? I'm pretty positive PS had explosive moments at every level until he was established!!!! I bet he wouldn't explode in a Elementary or Medium test.

If he's not going to explode in an elem or medium test then why not stick at this level until he gains more competition experience?

 

[Leg_end]

Why ever not? What a load of tosh!

Maybe, like I said, Star is just a bit of a stubborn git and just needs pushing through!? I'm pretty positive PS had explosive moments at every level until he was established!!!! I bet he wouldn't explode in a Elementary or Medium test.

Maybe he is and from looking at his record he has been explosive at every level at some point and thats not a critisism - I have known of horses who needed the higher level, busier tests to keep their brains occupied but they have all stopped tw@tting around once they have that work to focus on. He is definitely a tricky character, no-one is saying otherwise, but the question is whether there is a reason for that.

PS has confirmed that he has been happier since being on the ulcer supps but she has also dropped them down to maintainance levels now so could that be having an effect?

As others have said, PS should be speaking to people who know her and the horse inside out, all the HHO lot can offer are suggestions based on their own experiences which may or may not be at that level but are possibly valid nonetheless.

 

[TarrSteps]

There probably aren't a hundred horses in the world to compare to Valegro right now. . .

Also, I missed the bits where he's been difficult.

 

[TarrSteps]

Hang on, scratch that . . .didn't Charlotte get the ride on that horse because Carl thought it would go better for her and a softer approach? So instead of grinding on, set on their original path, they listened to the horse and went another way with it. . .

 

[kerilli]

Hang on, scratch that . . .didn't Charlotte get the ride on that horse because Carl thought it would go better for her and a softer approach? So instead of grinding on, set on their original path, they listened to the horse and went another way with it. . .

I think Carl has said he prefers the hotter ones, and didn't think Valegro quite suited his way as much as he suits Charlotte's. And that's a rider/trainer who has oodles of experience producing them to the top.
I'm another who really doesn't think it is fair to compare Valegro, purpose bred for the job for starters as well as having a truly exceptional brain and phenomenal physical talent, to an OTTB, however talented that OTTB is. Apples and pears...

 

[trina1982]

the way it reads to me, and to people who see him/have seen him, is that he's a horse who has to have an agenda, and when theres nothing in it for him, he will do as much as HE wants and then ive had it...............so i try and keep him wanting to please, i certainly couldnt force him though it.

Have you thought of Clicker training?

 

[Vizslak]

as well as agreeing with the concept of dropping back a level for a while until hes so fundamentally established in PSG at home its like a walk in the park for him the other thing I would do in this situation, to put your mind at rest that there is no physical pain is simply bute trialling for a fortnight, in that time I would actually be inclined to do ALL the things he 'hates' hacking, jumping etc, as well as try and get him out PSG on a ticket and see if there is any marked improvement. No improvement you have part of your definative answer and can move on however you see fit. It's suprising how some physical pain related issues manifest and come to light at odd times, often with no real pattern and undetected by vets/specialists, the only real way to find out without spending thousands unneccassarily is to eliminate the possible pain. I think its worth a shot for your own peace of mind if nothing else.

 

[MillionDollar]

I think we'll agree to disagree, after all we all have our own opinions