Cushings and Agnus Castus (Chaste Berry)

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keeperscottage

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I'm putting this thread in both New Lounge and Veterinary just to make sure it's read by as many people as possible!

My daughter owns (amongst many others :(!) a 20 year old chestnut TB ex-point-to-pointer mare. She was very successful in her racing career and whenever you ride her you think she's heading for the start of the 3.20 at Kempton Park!:D Anyway, last autumn, she had a mild bout of laminitis and I immediately thought "Cushings!" as did my daughter but vet who came out to her (and whose husband had previously owned our mare between the ages of 3 and 14 - he gave us to her as gift) didn't think so. But daughter and I were right because, in the spring, she didn't shed her coat! Now, my OH is a homeopath (although not practising at the moment) and wanted to treat her homepathically. We did some Googling and came up with Agnus Castus, which he said he used to prescribe to women with PMS etc. Global Herbs have a supplement called C-Aid, which is Agnus Castus plus some other herbs, so we tried on this......success! Her coat is now virtually normal bar a few "hairy" patches on her tummy and neck. However, from what I've read, Cushing horses become lethagic, which our mare has NEVER been, and is now a complete and utter nutter - shying at nothing, spooking on the road and literally leaping in the air when asked to canter. She has always been a "sensible" handful (extremely lively, but looks after herself - and her rider - at the same time) but now she is "out of her tree"! Could this because of the Agnus Castus, which is supposed to restore energy to lethagic Cushings sufferers (which lethagy she has never suffered from)? My daughter tried to do some jumping with her in the field tonight - it was a disaster! She was trying to "hurdle" a pole on the ground at a flat out gallop! Daughter is competent rider but finds her green Selle Francais x Dutch Warmblood five year old a more relaxing ride!

Has anyone else any experience of using Agnus Castus for a Cushings horse/pony? I'd love to hear your experiences! Our mare looks AMAZING - I watched her cantering around the field with my daughter tonight and she looked FAB - even my farier commented on how she looks for her age - but she is complete head case! If it is the Agnus Castus, is it worth going down the veterniary route of Pergolide, or does this have the same effect? I await hearing from you!
 
O hell - Prepare for the wrath of many "natural haters" (dons tin hat!) Yep, have had MANY positive experiences with natural remedies - too many to mention. Both personal and with my animals. My old boy is on a mixture of herbs (inc Ag Cast) - Milk Thistle, Spearmint, Echinacea... - If your mare is Cushinoid then I would recommend Echinacea to help her immune system. I would also get her tested (as stress can also cause laminitis) There are also 2 very good yahoo groups (and 1 is also on FB) Metabolic horse and Cushings (cushings group is also on FB - same owner)

There is also a vet on here who is very clued up on Cushings - do a search for it on the forum.

In the early stages it is also very easily managed and Pergolide is not always necessary. It would appear that Ag Cast is working for your mare. But get her tested and check the groups I recommended. Take this time to learn all you can about Cushings. Its not all horror stories. It can be managed for years. There are many heartwarming stories on the Cushings sites.

Glad to hear your story. :)
 
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I'm already on the Yahoo! forum (although I haven't found it helpful, to be honest) and am quite clued on Cushings, having had a Cushinoid pony many years ago (RIP Dolly, nothing to do with Cushings!). At the time we owned Dolly, it had just been discovered that "Hormonise" (a stroppy-mare type supplement containing Agnus Castus) showed positive results with Cushings horses and Dolly was in fact on this supplement. As I said, Lizzie, the horse now in question, looks absolutely amazing and our farrier commented on how good she looked for twenty. Our problem is the fact that she is literally bordering on dangerous to ride and I am concerned it is due to the Agnus Castus. She has always been VERY on her toes (I've ridden since a very young age - since 1963 in fact - but she has nearly unseated me just going into a canter with her bouncing sideways and leaping forward and this was long her recent transition into the ranks of "complete nutter"!). My daughter is a far better rider than me and really rides her well but now even she is getting to the end of her tether with her. She obviously feels extremely well and is literally leaping and plunging all over the place and this has only happened over the last few months - since she has been on Global Herbs C-Aid (basically Agnus Castus plus some other herbs). This is why I was wondering whether Pergolide had the same effect, assuming it is the Agnus Castus causing this "nuttiness". I will ring Global Herbs next week as they always seem to be quite helpful.

I'm very disappointed with the response to this post and may post on the Yahoo! forum as well.

Thank you for your response ;) and can you recall the user name of the "clued up on Cushings vet" on this Forum?
 
My old crone has lived with cushings for about 11 years now - we've used monks pepper (in the form of hormonise as it's less bitter) when she's bad and its worked a treat. I've never needed to 'upgrade' to pergolide or whatever it's calling itself these days, but it's nice knowing that the 'big guns' are still in my back pocket. We didn't have any bonkers side effects from the monks pepper, but she was much more 'well' in herself.

One side effect of my mare's cushings is that her eyesight can be a bit flakey and this can make her a bit more spooky. She's retired now, as she's well over 30, so it doesn't really matter and she's not in any distress, but it might be worth getting your mare's eyesight checked out.

ps My non-cushingoid older horse, 25, has got progressively more and more eccentric as he's got older. As far as he's concerned, he's 25 and he can do what the ******* he wants..... He's quite gentlemanly with it, and it's nice to have the old boy so full of it, but I would imagine if he had been a sharper horse to start with then getting more arrogant on top of that could have been quite a challenge. It could be natural age related eccentricities with your mare, only with her suddenly having the 'fog cleared' it has hit you with a bang rather than gradually creeping up on you (even if it didn't seem at the time that there was any fog to clear). Good luck - she sounds like a character.
 
My Vet recommended I try an Agnus Castus based supplement before pergolide. I used NAF Cushinaze. Bobby was on it for nearly 2 years & the difference in him was amazing. I made the mistake of getting low before I re-ordered once & he was off it for 10 days (it was christmas so deliveries all over the place), he dropped weight & looked really down after a few days. Back on his supplement he soon bounced back, so that was good enough for me to know it was doing it's job. He stayed on it until his arthritis got too bad &he was pts.
 
Try it, because it can't do any harm and may do the power of good regardless of for how short a time.

The pituitary enlargement can press in the optic nerve, I believe and may give rise to some visual disturbance or possibly even loss, causing the spooking?

The very best of luck and how marvellous you caught it so early and got onto the reason behind the laminitis.
 
I am sooo glad someone else has had this response to CB (other names Chaste Tree Berry and Monks Pepper).
I tried this herb last year as well as treating my 23 y.o. Cushings TBx with Pergolide because at first the drug didn't seem to be working.
Whilst he was on CTB, he became almost unmanageable, he spooked one day whilst going thro the gate to the field and kicked back, catching me in the ribs and broke two. When it didn't seem to be having any effect on his Cushings either, I stopped it and (thinking back) the spookiness stopped.
I tried it again beginning of this year and he started rampaging around the field whenever his friend was taken out, bellowing all day for him (he had other horses in with him). This is when I twigged it might be the CTB and stopped it and the madness stopped again. I was getting advice on the Yahoo group and they suggested it might be because he was feeling well but I think he was more stressed and spooky on it.
If I were you I'd take your mare off CTB and try a magnesium supplement, that worked for a friend on her Selle Francais. He was taken off it by a misguided yard worker and he went a bit berzerk. When my friend realised he was misbehaving, she asked if he was still being dosed with Mg because she knew by his behaviour that it had been stopped.
Incidentally, there is lots of info about Mg being deficient in feeds and fields which may be the cause of more laminitis, so it could help keep the threat of that away too.
I get my herbs etc from Natural Horse Supplies.
 
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I forgot to add that we are also using Global Herbs Laminitis Prone - it is amazing! Lizzie was coming in from the field after about four hours grazing with a pounding digitial pulse.....after using Global Herbs Laminitis Prone it literally disappeared within 24 hours of putting her on this supplement! After a matter of weeks, we were able to turn her out for twelve or more hours with no pulse!

However, controlling Lizzie's Cushings is not my current problem - it is her unbelievable energy/excitabilty; she is now a complete "head case"! She has always been know as "Busy Lizzie" because of the fact that she has always been "on her toes" but now she is totally unpredictable - leaping in the air, spooking, cantering sideways etc......is this due toi the Agnus Castus????
 
Muff747 - just read your reponse which is very interesting! Very busy at the moment but I will PM you in a day or so! Our VERY lively but dependable ex-pointer, which when in training, was called "Joan" (because she was so sensible!!!) has become verging on dangerous! My daughter is a complete "stress head" and they've always had an amazing relationship because they are so alike (both "stress heads"!!!) but my daughter reckons she is now dangerous to ride, which, coming from my daughter, has to be taken seriously. She's hunted her for many seasons, put up with all her quirky ways - they've had an amazing "love/hate" relationship but it has just broken down over the last six weeks or so with this mare's current behaviour!
 
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