Cushings related laminitis

[dozzie]

There have been a few posts on cushings recently and thought Id ask about the laminitis side of cushings. I have a 31 yr old horse who never keeps weight on. have spoken to vet re cushings but she said as he hasnt got a curly coat and sheds his coat in the summer its not cushings, just old age. He is not a hatrack! But you can see his ribs clearly when he moves. Well, lets just say I thinks there is a very high likelihood the vet is wrong bearing in mind his age and as cushings sufferers do not show all the symptons necessarily.

However the reason Im posting is that He can go from skinny man to cob over night in the summer. I do try to keep him on the good grass as much as possible as it is the only way to maintain his weight. I remove him from the grass and after a few days the swelling goes down. He is never lame and has no heat in his feet. I c**p at taking the digital pulse but do try!! I assume it is laminitis and treat accordingly. Does this sound like cushings/laminitis?


There has also been some discussion on the drugs used to control cushings. Does the drug help with the laminitis?

 

[GlamourDol]

I would get a differnt vet out, as just because he doesnt have a curly coat does not mean its not cushings. They want to test Dol for cushings amd she definitly doesnt have a curly coat. As you said smetimes not all of the symptoms are present.
If you think he has lami i certainy wouldnt be putting him out on grass but get a second oppinion from a vts re everything that is worrying you.
At the end of it all, you are paying the bill, if you want them to test for Cushings then insist!
Hope my ramblings are of some help!
xx

 

[bellaM]

What symptoms of laminitis or cushings does he show?

 

[dozzie]

I think you have misunderstood what I am asking. Sorry, I'll try to clarify. I am pretty sure my horse has cushings. He is 31 and therefore it is highly likely. I dont have a problem with this. I need to know if people who have had cushings related laminitis have had similar symptons of swelling without lameness and whether the drugs work for these symptons.

I know I have to watch him on the grass but due to poor digestion he has to have access to grass. He gets colic if he is stabled. So I have some poor paddocks which he goes in when he swells up. I am managing him but I am interested in trying to make things easier.

I have had him 29 years so know him pretty well.

He also appears depressed which is another sympton.

Hope this helps.

 

[bellaM]

Is the swelling in his legs? If he had laminitis he would be lame at least in his fronts normally, and walking on his heels, that is if he could walk, it would be a very slow stiff gait as it is very painful, there is usually heat in the feet but not always.
I have seen very varying degrees of Laminitis in cushings ponies, very comonly a severe bout which just won't get better, or unexplained laminitis which may get better but inevitably (sp) comes back in a short space of time, sometimes the continual unexplained laminitis is what leads some people to have there ponies cushings tested.
With the drugs it does tend to prevent the laminitis and treats the symptoms rather than the cause, but they will get the laminitis and it is nearly always this that ends them.

 

[alisonpook]

Where is he swollen?. One of the common sites for Cushings horses to be swollen is in the hollows over the eye sockets as the fat deposits fill in the normal hollows. There are several tests which may be used to help diagnose Cushings and then again to check the effectiveness of dietary measures. You may find it useful to look at some of the yahoo sites such as the Metabolic horse which have details on these. My own vet did a simple blood sugar test first thing in the morning to help diagnose my horse.

 

[MagicMelon]

I wouldnt say its cushings laminitis as you admit you put him out on good grass! This in itself would probably cause lami! I think one of mine has cushings, she does not have a curly coat though. However, she does drink a lot more than she used to and doesnt loose her coat as well during the summer (although I think this is more down to age). And the fact that she kept getting laminitis during the winter was very odd. Right now she is feeling good, however I notice that even if I give her a pleat of "good" hay (rather than the crappy old stuff I bought for her) she is pottery the very next day. My vet said this could well be cushings laminitis, as something so small such as a little bit of good hay shouldnt trigger lami.

However you are letting your horse have good grass, so I would say thats just normal laminitis! I would say take him off the good grass straight away. I understand that he's skinny but try and give him loads of good quality hay / haylage instead and appropriate feed / vitamins etc. it's much safer than giving him too much grass.

I treat my girl as if she does have cushings and give her Agnus Castus every day with her feed. Ive read great things about this herb and it seems to be the main ingredient in all cushings-supplements. You can get drugs from the vet but you'd likely need to have her tested first.

 

[eekmon]

I look after a cushings pony who had chronic laminitis as a result that was nearly 2 years ago now. As suggested you should get him tested so you know for sure. As for grazing ect although her lami was caused by cushings ( and she is not a fat native type) we still manage her lami as you would a 'normal' lami case i.e feeding, grazing ect. She only eats happy hoof with Topspec anti-lam, grazes with a muzzle, has soaked hay and not haylage.( all on vets advice) She is on the cushings tablets too (2 1/2 a day) Also vet had advised to keep her on the slim side so we too can just see her ribs. Hope this answers your question. Who are your vets?

 

[TGM]

How are his teeth? I would have thought at his age his teeth would be poor and the fact he suddenly gets fat on grass would back it up (grass being much easier to eat than hay for the dentally challenged).

I don't quite understand what swellings you are referring to, but if you are worried about laminitis then I would suggest you restrict grazing and use a lami safe short chop forage, such as Spiller's Happy Hoof, as a hay replacer to ensure he keeps his weight on.

 

[dozzie]

The swelling puzzles me too. Thats why Im not sure what it is!
He swells through his neck and shoulder, hard swellings as you might expect with a cresty laminitic but sometimes these are quite lumpy and are not on his crest. His legs do not swell.It is quite bizarre. He never gets any lameness but once removed from the grass the swellings go down over a couple of days.

A way to describe it is that one day he looks like a slim TB eventer type and the next day will look like an obese cob!

Due to serious redworm damage when I got him 29 years ago his ability to digest hard feed is poor and has been all his life. He has always been better on grass and has always been tricky to feed as he often chooses not to eat!He hates horsehage and haylage and will eat about 1/2 a section of soaked hay overnight. During the day he may eat about the same if stabled. So this makes life really difficult. He also will reject hard feed if you feed him too much! Believe me I have tried everything and now know that I have to keep him on good grass as much as possible. Even on the grass he doesnt get fat as he will spend a large amount of the day not eating! He is one very complex horse. He's actually done very well to get to 31 as his life expectancy was seriously lessened due to the redworm damage!!

If I feed him dry hay he wont eat whatever the quality! He is also wormed regularly as any hint of worms sends him off his food completely. His teeth are also checked regularly as he is an old man and does have a few wobbly ones. Although generally his teeth are good.

I do use happy hoof for my ponies but he has alfa-A. He could easily go onto happyhoof in the summer. This certainly sounds a good idea.
I must admit, every summer I think this will be the last as he really is difficult to manage now but he is still so fit and athletic in every way I really dont think hes ready to go yet.

I am seeing my vet next week and I think I will run it past him to see what he thinks.

Thanks for the replies. Not sure weve really got to the bottom of what the swelling is all about. I'll let you know what vet thinks.

Thanks guys

 

[TGM]

The swellings do sound bizarre, but I've never heard of anything like that being linked to laminitis. The crest of laminitis ponies is actually fat deposits and wouldn't go up and down like that.

However, if the swellings are obviously linked to grazing then it would make sense to limit his time at grass. You can continue giving him Alfa A as his bucket feed, but when he is in the stable then ensure he always has a tub of Happy Hoof available as a hay replacer. The Happy Hoof is very soft and easy to eat and seems to be very palatable to most horses. The reason not to use Alfa A as a hay replacer is because it is high in calcium and may cause problems if fed to excess.

PS: Have you asked the vet about the swellings?

 

[mollymurphy]

Hiya!

I haven't read through all of the replies, but thought i'd tell you about my pony, Muphy. He was put to sleep in May, aged 14 as a result of an 18 month battle with cushings-related laminitis. The only cushings symptom he ever had was the laminitis - no coat changes or anything.

As for treatment, he was on Pergolide for the Cushings. For the laminitis, he was on 1 and a half ACP tablets every 4 hours, 16 asprin every other day, bute, heartbar shoeing every 4 weeks. He also had a partial foot resection and spent 4 weeks at a hydrotherapy spa. It worked for the first bout, but in the end, there was nothing we could do.

I've since learned from our equine dentist that he has a cushings pony. He swears by a drug used to treat angina in humans. Its a cream that he rubs onto the back of the ponys heel and it apparently works wonders. It's not licenced for use in horses in this country, but he manages to get hold of it (sorry, i cant remember what it's called). I'm devastated that we never knew about it when murph was alive. He also apparently uses homeopathic forms of arsenic to treat the cushings. Which sound pretty horiffic, but his pony is 40+, so he must be doing something right!

Is your horse on Founder Guard for the laminitis?

Good look!

Lou. x

 

[dozzie]

I havent asked about the swellings but I will next week.

He also gets spasmodic colic if stabled!! Told you hes a nightmare to manage! He can go down with colic within 1/2 hour of being in but will certainly show signs after 3 days even if he goes out for part of the time. The colic wears of within 10 minutes of being out again. Hence he stays out 24/7. But I do have some poor paddocks which he goes in if he swells. After 29 years I know him so well!!!! I really dont know how Ive managed to keep him going for so long. I think any sensible person would have given up by now. But he has the loveliest eyes!!!

However I do think when he is in, a bucket of happyhoof may help him to keep eating. So will try this. Thanks.

 

[Thistle]

Will he eat Spillers Hi Fibre cubes, most horses will eat them, particularly if soaked to a crumbly mash. They can be fed in quite large quantities to laminitics and are easier to eat and digest.

 

[brighteyes]

Go onto Yahoo Groups and type in Themetabolichorse. There's tons of info on every Cushing's and IR angle you can dream up. Lots of savvy people and plenty of good advice from Jackie JA Taylor. Your lad's lumps sound very unusual, but the chances are, someone on the YG will have come across it. Good luck, and let us all know how you get on. I Have a 27yo who was fighting Cushing's lami and Pergolide stopped it for her.