Dangerous 5 year old

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jag04

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OK, bare with me this is a long one.
I bought my boy 2 years ago this September as an unbroken 4 year old who had only been handled by his previous owner who was the breeder. He was fresh out the field with no experience of really anything. Over the next 6 months i did a ton of groundwork with him and broke him in; he was as good as gold and didn't bat an eyelid. We did only hacking for a while so that i was introducing him to his work slowly not blow his mind, he responded well - he did what all young horses do and spooked on the odd occasion but other than that nothing major. I then started to introduce him to schooling which he took in his stride, we had an instructor each week to make sure all was going well and she was happy with him.
At this point i am as happy as a clam, my boy is filling out and learning and making me a happy bunny, we move to a new yard and it's lovely, he's happy i am happy, i introduce him to the area by hacking him- all fine and then one day literally out of nowhere, he stops whilst out hacking and will not budge. This sudden stopping napping habit carried on for a while but we worked through it, but then stopping turns into rearing; now i don't mean bunny hops - i am talking full on hi - ho silver stance. He had me off straight away and the rest is history - my boy went from 0 to 100 in the blink of an eye, no bucks thrown in, no on the spot dancing to prepare you for it just straight up.
I have had instructors watch him and ride him, i have had vets look at him, farriers, physiotherapists, dentists, saddle fitters,he has been scoped and poked and prodded and yet nobody seems to have an answer to why he rears, whether it was just a one off incident where he tried it on and then he learnt he could get me off so he got out of work i do not know. He will be trotting fine then leap into his rear and the worst bit is i can't feel when he is about to, there is no warning sign. I always make sure i get back on him if he hasn't done me any damage but i don't know how many more lucky falls i have before he catches me out. I love my boy but he has turned into a nightmare, if i pay the money to send him away i have a feeling he will come back and do it again just because it's me.
SO you beautiful people what would you do? i am at my wits end with him, the fun of having him is gone and now he is pretty scary (although i try not to let him sense that i know that).

please help.
oh - he is an ISH, 16.3, will be 6 in April
 
Personally I'd send him away to a professional to school him. Then before he comes back hav some lessons on him. When he's back, ask the pro to come and ride him at home, then you get back on him gradually.
 
Do the instructors who've ridden him come off when he rears? What exactly is he doing to get you off?

If other people can sit it, send him to a pro. If not, I think a bullet is the only reasonable alternative - you can't sell him on.
 
As above really - If you're sure you've eliminated any possibility of physical problems , then get some help or opinions from a pro rider, the best one you can afford. If they're any good, they should suss him out fairly quickly.
Poor old you.....good luck and I hope you get to the bottom of it nice and quickly.
 
I would buy an air jacket if you don't already have one. I would suggest sending him to Jason webb, he will give you a straight forward evaluation. But, I am betting there is pain and they have not found it yet.
 
just a few things you can try:

*different saddle, even if the saddler says its fits, he wouldnt be the first horse to disagree with a saddler so try something different on him (that is checked and given the thumbs up by either yourself if confident enough or someone experienced but with no agenda ie not a saddler!)

* try him on gastroguard if you can get your hands on it, or something like Protexin acid ease. I know you say he's been scoped but again, it wouldnt be the first time a horse responds when technically it shouldnt!

*get a second opinion on his back and get them to check neck and poll. depending what they find get his back x ray'd.

* do a bute trial and see if he improves

* different bits and bridles, with and without padded headpiece. second opinion on teeth.

* change his feed

my gut feeling is that maybe he has something going on pain wise that doesnt affect him 100% of the time but suddenly flares up, maybe a wolf tooth or cracked tooth that gets bumped by bit, kissing spines, poll injury,sore tummy etc.

its going to take time to work down the list and give each option a bit of time but it will be worth it if only to eliminate some stuff.

if he WAS fine and now isnt, something has happend and to me i suspect its a physical issue.
 
Agree with everything said above, one more thing you could consider if it's when you're out hacking is to long line him from the ground, provided you have somewhere reasonably safe to do so. That way he can't get you off if he rears and he'll have to carry on working.
 
BigRed said:
I would buy an air jacket if you don't already have one. I would suggest sending him to Jason webb, he will give you a straight forward evaluation. But, I am betting there is pain and they have not found it yet.
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I agree with you BR- I think there must be a physical issue somewhere, horses generally don't do things like this without good cause. If he was going well before hand I'd assume there is an issue physically.

I'm finding the things you can do to investigate these kinds of behaviours is endless nowadays, what with research on simple things like bridles and how they effect the nerves in the head, saddles and the different areas of pressure from tree'd/treeless.

It looks like you've done your up most and thus far and it is really awful when this happens. If he is scaring you it is not worth it for either of you to continue under saddle.
 
I am with those that say there is probably a physical issue causing this. One suggestion I do have is thermal imaging

Having someone out with thermal imaging equipment to do an all over scan of his body may pick up a "hot spot" - in other words a potential problem area - which might be causing him pain. You can then get a vet to scan or xray this area, without having the vet scan/xray every inch of his body which will be very expensive for you, and could potentially be stressful for him as this will usually involve travelling and leaving him somewhere overnight.

We had this done to our TB who showed up white along his spine (meaning very, very hot) when we had problems with him and we were then able to consult with the vet who investigated that particular place.

Of course, thermal imaging won't help if there is a problem "inside" but it could be a good place to start.

Also get liver and kidneys checked - these if hurting can cause issues under saddle as the pressure from the saddle can really exacerbate pain. A simple blood test should be able to pick problems up fairly easily.

Hope this helps and hope you get to the bottom of his problems, I really feel for you as he was so perfect before!
 
jag04 said:
OK, bare with me this is a long one.
I bought my boy 2 years ago this September as an unbroken 4 year old who had only been handled by his previous owner who was the breeder. He was fresh out the field with no experience of really anything. Over the next 6 months i did a ton of groundwork with him and broke him in; he was as good as gold and didn't bat an eyelid. We did only hacking for a while so that i was introducing him to his work slowly not blow his mind, he responded well - he did what all young horses do and spooked on the odd occasion but other than that nothing major. I then started to introduce him to schooling which he took in his stride, we had an instructor each week to make sure all was going well and she was happy with him.
At this point i am as happy as a clam, my boy is filling out and learning and making me a happy bunny, we move to a new yard and it's lovely, he's happy i am happy, i introduce him to the area by hacking him- all fine and then one day literally out of nowhere, he stops whilst out hacking and will not budge. This sudden stopping napping habit carried on for a while but we worked through it, but then stopping turns into rearing; now i don't mean bunny hops - i am talking full on hi - ho silver stance. He had me off straight away and the rest is history - my boy went from 0 to 100 in the blink of an eye, no bucks thrown in, no on the spot dancing to prepare you for it just straight up.
I have had instructors watch him and ride him, i have had vets look at him, farriers, physiotherapists, dentists, saddle fitters,he has been scoped and poked and prodded and yet nobody seems to have an answer to why he rears, whether it was just a one off incident where he tried it on and then he learnt he could get me off so he got out of work i do not know. He will be trotting fine then leap into his rear and the worst bit is i can't feel when he is about to, there is no warning sign. I always make sure i get back on him if he hasn't done me any damage but i don't know how many more lucky falls i have before he catches me out. I love my boy but he has turned into a nightmare, if i pay the money to send him away i have a feeling he will come back and do it again just because it's me.
SO you beautiful people what would you do? i am at my wits end with him, the fun of having him is gone and now he is pretty scary (although i try not to let him sense that i know that).

please help.
oh - he is an ISH, 16.3, will be 6 in April
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This sounds a similar tale to mine as mine started in much the same way - easy to back and then it all went terribly wrong. Mine was rather explosive though with bucking rather than rearing, although at his worst he did both together and it was terrifying to watch.
Essentially the saddle was not wide enough and, from what it seemed was causing horrible spasms down his back.
With being so young he can only react naturally as isn't educated enough I guess to consider the rider on top.
I tried everything and even had a saddle made. I sent him away for backing last summer (aged 5 at this point) but although it starting positively it all went wrong again and almost bronced the trainer off. Physio said all fine in his back.
He then went lame and vet came out and referred to vet hospital. They couldn't get him to show lameness but, after x-rays and scans diagnosed him with inflammation of the ligaments between the spinous processes behind his wither. Well, that would certainly explain the reactions!
He has been treated and will have final scans in Feb. After this and a lot of groundwork to build up his back muscles, I am hoping I may at the end have a lovely little horse.
So. Don't rule out pain just because your physio says all's fine, get a second opinion. Get someone to check your saddle, it could be something as simple as you just need a wider one

My inkling is your horse reacts when maybe he's getting tense and then gets some sort of pain as his muscles tighten so he automatically reacts with a rear response. At this age it is unlikely he is just using this as an evasion IMO but he may start to learn that doing this and your resultant departure from the saddle relieves the pain. You don't want him to get this association!
I am sure you will get to the bottom of it but please don't have anyone try and "make him behave" as this could easily make things worse. He is telling you something's not right so you need to listen and try and find out what that is. Good luck!
 
HHO admin said:
H&H blogger Jason Webb wrote an interesting piece about horses that rear. Link below if you'd like to read it.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/blog/jason-webb-coping-rearing-horse-422075

Hope you manage to get your horse's problem resolved.
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That's a really interesting article and makes a lot of sense - thank you. I'd love to get his opinion but i think the cost may be crippling.

I can't thank you all enough, it is so comforting to hear people who have had similar situations or have tried and tested out different options to get some kind of answers.
I have another saddle fitter coming out next week for another opinion and i definitely want to try and get some thermal imaging done so if anybody knows of a specialist who can do that i'd greatly appreciate it. Not that i think he will be bringing him back into work anytime soon but when i do i may try a micklem bridle as they are supposed to avoid nerves in the face, i'd do anything for my boy; even though he scares the crap out of me sometimes i know that he will be a good horse one day and i refuse to give up on that even if it is something that is a long way away. x
 
If you read some of my old post. It's like you've written about my 4 yr old.

Physio said he was fine. But actually he was lame, only slightly but he's been diagnosed with bone spurs, one in his hock and one in his front right coffin joint. I'm going to start riding again this weekend after 4 months off so I will see how I get on. I'm.not too worried though
 
Having had my back broken by a back flipper I would urge caution. We think mine had a neck lesion but it was years ago and they didn't have the diagnostics they have now. I bought another unbroken 5 year old that exploded in rodeo fits that were so bad a rodeo offered to buy him. It turned out his spine was unusually wide and , therefore, needed an unusually wide gullet in the saddle otherwise it loaded on his spine, also he could not take any pressure near his shoulders at all. the third saddle fitter fitted a 16.5 inch saddle with a high wide head and huge gullet. problem solved but we always had to take time warming his back up as he tensed the long muscle under the saddle due to his previous experiences. He was 16.3hh and a heavy bodied middle weight, the previous saddlers ( one of them a master saddler) fitted an 18" saddle. A second opinion on the saddle front may do no harm but I would keep an open mind and possibly have a thermal scan done too. If he hasn't had a saddle on for a while then any pressure points may not show up.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
just a few things you can try:

*different saddle, even if the saddler says its fits, he wouldnt be the first horse to disagree with a saddler so try something different on him (that is checked and given the thumbs up by either yourself if confident enough or someone experienced but with no agenda ie not a saddler!)

* try him on gastroguard if you can get your hands on it, or something like Protexin acid ease. I know you say he's been scoped but again, it wouldnt be the first time a horse responds when technically it shouldnt!

*get a second opinion on his back and get them to check neck and poll. depending what they find get his back x ray'd.

* do a bute trial and see if he improves

* different bits and bridles, with and without padded headpiece. second opinion on teeth.

* change his feed

my gut feeling is that maybe he has something going on pain wise that doesnt affect him 100% of the time but suddenly flares up, maybe a wolf tooth or cracked tooth that gets bumped by bit, kissing spines, poll injury,sore tummy etc.

its going to take time to work down the list and give each option a bit of time but it will be worth it if only to eliminate some stuff.

if he WAS fine and now isnt, something has happend and to me i suspect its a physical issue.
Click to expand...

Good post, experience has taught me when previously well behaved horses start seriously misbehaving there's a pain / health related reason .
 
Am I the only one who thinks that he's just hit the "Kevin" stage and is testing you OP? Does he always have you off? Is it possible to get an instructor on him to ride him through it?
 
Mince Pie said:
Am I the only one who thinks that he's just hit the "Kevin" stage and is testing you OP? Does he always have you off? Is it possible to get an instructor on him to ride him through it?
Click to expand...

Obviously not, as some of the earlier posters talked about 'riding him through it'.

IME though horses which behave well for some time and then suddenly change their habits, are exhibiting a pain response. I would follow Prince33Sparkle's advice, getting second opinions all round.
 
Mince Pie said:
Am I the only one who thinks that he's just hit the "Kevin" stage and is testing you OP? Does he always have you off? Is it possible to get an instructor on him to ride him through it?
Click to expand...
You could very well be right, he doesn't always have me off, i'd say it's 50/50. Weird thing is he doesnt test me that often when on the ground which is where i thought he would be more likely to if he was just being a brat, and if he pushes his luck he gets put back in line.
 
old hand said:
Having had my back broken by a back flipper I would urge caution. We think mine had a neck lesion but it was years ago and they didn't have the diagnostics they have now. I bought another unbroken 5 year old that exploded in rodeo fits that were so bad a rodeo offered to buy him. It turned out his spine was unusually wide and , therefore, needed an unusually wide gullet in the saddle otherwise it loaded on his spine, also he could not take any pressure near his shoulders at all. the third saddle fitter fitted a 16.5 inch saddle with a high wide head and huge gullet. problem solved but we always had to take time warming his back up as he tensed the long muscle under the saddle due to his previous experiences. He was 16.3hh and a heavy bodied middle weight, the previous saddlers ( one of them a master saddler) fitted an 18" saddle. A second opinion on the saddle front may do no harm but I would keep an open mind and possibly have a thermal scan done too. If he hasn't had a saddle on for a while then any pressure points may not show up.
Click to expand...

Thankyou:) he's never really bronced he'll just go straight vertical and then occasionally throw in a few bucks ,i think i will look into the thermal scan as people have also suggested x
 
Is this a pure hacking 'evasion' or does it happen in the arena or anywhere else for that matter?
Does he do it every time you ride him?

We (at work) got a dutch WB that does the vertical no warning rears out hacking. He is banished from hacking now and is purely ridden in the arena. He isn't even ridden to the arena - i feel he must have issues of the big wide world and I know the owners are tempted to get a spiritual reader person to read a sample of his hair. Thinking outside the box, it has been known to give us ideas!!
 
Fools Motto said:
Is this a pure hacking 'evasion' or does it happen in the arena or anywhere else for that matter?
Does he do it every time you ride him?

We (at work) got a dutch WB that does the vertical no warning rears out hacking. He is banished from hacking now and is purely ridden in the arena. He isn't even ridden to the arena - i feel he must have issues of the big wide world and I know the owners are tempted to get a spiritual reader person to read a sample of his hair. Thinking outside the box, it has been known to give us ideas!!
Click to expand...

When out hacking he tends not to be as bad- he will still rear, smaller if on a road and he feels the need to do it, ridiculously big in any type of grass footing. On multiple occasions he has dumped me and ran home. In the arena he is much much worse. I did wonder about spiritual healing😂😂
 
My husband's angelic four year old ISH turned into a pig at 5-6, spinning and cantering off with me and the groom. He didn't do it so much with my husband, who is a much more novice rider, but had about a foot longer legs than me and the groom and was a lot stronger,so could pull him up quicker. We also found he wasn't doing it with my husband as he wasn't asking him to walk out/work as much as myself and the groom. It was a case of ride it out, pull him up and go back, repeating as much as needed until he went past whatever he didn't want to. By late 6-7 he was back to his lovely self. He can still throw a good buck in and shoot off when in The school with me - again it goes back to the not wanting to work, it's a kind of "well let's see if you can deal with this.."
 
I had a mare who did this. Got everything checked and once she was given a clean bill of health I proceded through several methods to block the rearing and let her know that it wasn't worth it for her. Took me weeks of blood sweat and tears before we had a breakthrough and we never looked back afterwards.

Yes horses can carry on due to health issues but sometimes it is just they know how to get out of doing what we ask. That's when tough love comes in and you just have to do what you have to do to reinforce that you are in charge and what you say under saddle goes.
 
Nightmare before Christmas said:
Send it to a pro to sort out
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This the safest option .
Also has a really good dental trained vet sedated him gaged him and looked in his mouth.
I would also be trying very hard to get video of the horse behaving badly and then sending the horse ( with the videos ) for a 'lack of performance ' type work up from a suitable vet , you need to pick the vet carefully for this type of work.
I also would want a ACPAT trained physio over him like a rash preferably one who used to working woth the vet doing the work up.
I would also consider seriously increasing his work and seeing if helped or made him worse .
 
Might also be worth talking to a vet about a 'Bute test - if his behaviour improves then you know you may well have a pain issue. Could be anything from kissing spines to gastric ulcers.
 
My horse went through a similar stage admittedly not as bad as a 4yo when hacking out, first he tried rearing, but luckily you got plenty of warning, so staying on was easier, then when this failed to work, he tried bolting then when this failed to work he tried bucking , ( ok I fell of on this one but just ignored it and got back on and resumed the hack ).

When all this didn't work he became the well mannered well behaved individual he is now.
 
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