DANGEROUS BITING

[DuPont]

I was wondering if anyone has any advice on how to handle a horse with this vicious habit?

I have been regularly handling a difficult mare for a friend who has become scared of her horse because she is known to give very nasty bites. It seems to be a dominance issue as she is a generally bolshy horse who is food aggressive although some of the attacks aren't related to food. It isn't restricted to her stable so I don't think its necessarily territorial either.

Recently she got me on the shoulder and literally clamped on and wouldn't let go. If she got hold of a child this way I have no doubt she could break bones and cause very serious injury.

These bites have been becoming more frequent and I am very concerned. I react as many advise using the 3 second rule and giving all hell within that time (shouting, throwing my arms in the air and smacking her where I can reach) but this isn't working. I stand tall with her and continue the job I was doing before she went for me and any threatening behaviour is met with loud "no's".

She has also been known to spin round and try to kick out as well. Although I know her well and have also seen many occasions when she is a very sweet horse, she is becoming an absolute nightmare.

Does anyone have any other ideas and do you know any reformed characters who used to act this way?

FYI – Tack discomfort etc has all been ruled out.

 

[be positive]

I would be cross tying whenever I was doing anything with her, then she should not be able to turn so far round. If she does it when being led would a bridle or control halter help.

 

[brown tack]

I would stick a grazing muzzle on when handling her, and then you can handle her safely without the fear of been badly bitten. When you over come that problem handle her with it.

Also cross ties but if she's a clever mare then she can learn to take have one slack, wait till your in the biting area then go for it. Had a stallion that loved that trick. Even if they were fairly taunt

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Hmmm, have never dealt much with mares but as the owner thinks she's getting worse with this habit, wondering what's going on??

Personally, I'd be inclined to get a vet check including getting her teeth checked, as it might just be there's a pain issue somewhere? Plus get some bloods done as her hormones might be doing weird things.

I had a friends' mare who bit me blimmin hard on the inside of my arm, little monkey - I had a horrible bruise for ages because of it and it s@dding hurt as well, she done it just out of spite I think coz I know her owner wouldn't have spoilt her or teased her in any way with food, I think she saw her opportunity with a stranger and just went for it, for some reason.

Would a pressure halti work? These things work on pressure and release so maybe it would help? Or perhaps not. But maybe worth a try.

Or the other option is to seek professional help as it may be an outsider can offer some wisdom.

Just wondering: has the mare's routine/feeding etc been changed recently? If she's at a yard, has anything changed? It might be worth looking at all of that as there's probably going to be something, somewhere, which has started all this.

As well as vet/teeth, perhaps also you/owner would need to look at bitting? Maybe she's been uncomfy? Or perhaps is getting head/neck/shoulder pain which is making her like this?

 

[brown tack]

Has she had bloods run, maybe hormones?

 

[Wagtail]

Is it possible for you to have a water spray at the ready? Or for someone else to be with you ready to spray her? Horses absolutely hate being sprayed in the face.

Personally, I have known a similar mare that belonged to a friend of mine. I once leant over her stable door to check if she had any hay and she bit me so hard it was like a vice closing round my arm. I had around 5 layers of clothing on including a thick coat. Even so, my arm was black from the shoulder to the elbow and I still have kinks left in the muscle. I have no doubt she would have stripped my arm of it's whole biceps had I been bare armed. Later on she kicked my trainer so hard she ruptured her spleen. The final straw for my friend was when she struck out at her in the field with her front legs and broke 3 ribs. I was horrified when she sold her for £10k to a teenager saying she was 'a bit grumpy in her stable'! The mare was a star under tack and would be great to handle and ride. A jumping machine. But IMO totally unsuitable to be sold to a 15 year old. I often wonder what happened to this horse. Black 15.1 hh with a thin white blaze.

 

[Foxhunter49]

I too would run a blood on her to check for any abnormalities.

As a kid there was a pony at the riding school who was a biter. If he got you he locked on and would shake you like a terrier shakes a rat.
There was no telling when he would do it either. Although perfectly good to ride, only senior helpers or members of staff were allowed to do anything with him.
One day I was taking him back into the stables when he went to bite me. Luckily I moved and he contacted with a new sweater mother had kitted and I was not meant to wearing to the stables! I had a large handkerchief up the sleeve and he ripped that out, leaving a hole in the sweater.
I was so mad knowing I would get into trouble on my return home that I grabbed his ear and bit it hard with my back teeth. He squealed like a stuck pig and swung me a full 360 before I let go.
He never ever bit me again and I used him as my games pony for years. he did still very occasionally bite other people though.

 

[china]

get some good ground work done, she clearly doesnt know what boundries are! that most definatley is unacceptable behaviour! wear gloves, hat and lead in a bridle.

 

[Miss L Toe]

Sell it?

 

[team barney]

She sounds a like avery challenging horse as her behaviour appears inconsistent and those kind of animals are always the most hardest to deal with.

Horse's can sometimes become addicted to the punishment, and in that case the only way of dealing with them is to completely ignore undesired behaviour (in this case biting) and praise all good behaviour.

Has the vet checked her out? If the behaviour is new I wouldn't rule out some sort of neurological problem.

I wish your friend all the best as horses like these are often a difficult challenge.

Sell it?

Who is going to want to buy her? There are so many good natured horse's out there that unless she has an exceptional talent I can't see anyone wanting her. Why would anyone buy an horse like that if they knew of her issues, you might possibly be able to give her away but that leaves he future very uncertain as there are many dishonest people out there, and even if the owner was willing to lie about her nature withholding information like this when selling is a very dangerous game to play.

 

[brucea]

Pure dominance behaviour.

The solution takes a bit of groundwork, and I would suggest getting a Parelli instructor. Despite the general hostility towards it, the Parelli approach is very good for horses like this.

 

[Hedgewitch13]

Bite it back! My Aunty had a horse that bit, the last time it ever did it she bit it back quick as a flash and that was the end of that,it never did it again. Might be worth a try
Other than that it sounds like a vet's visit is on the cards. Good luck.

 

[superted1989]

Sell it?

As above, that's what I did! I had a Welsh D when I was 14 who would charge across the field, ears flat back and teeth bared, very scary. He had to be stabled at the very end of the block so there was no danger of a chunk being taken out of other people whilst walking past. Looking back, he must have been very confused and had never learned about boundaries. He was taken off his mother, gelded, then in a field on his own until he was 4. A local dealer bought him, handled him for 6 weeks, then I got him. Naturally, at 14, I was the perfect person to teach a 15.2 baby all about life with humans, NOT! He was a dream under saddle, easy as pie to back, fabulous to hack and hunt but had no social skills, equine or human, whatsoever. One day, he got my dad by the hand and lifted him off the floor. My dad had to have hospital treatment and the horse was sold within a fortnight.
He went to a lady who took in difficult horses to retrain to drive ( over 30 years ago, before NH etc became trendy), she worked on a consistency and routine principle and ended up keeping him until he passed away.

 

[hollyandivy123]

might be slightly off track but have you had her scoped for ulcers? as they can give unpredictable behaviour

oh by the way i am another one who bit one back and that did stop it, ps didn't taste nice yuck

 

[YasandCrystal]

might be slightly off track but have you had her scoped for ulcers? as they can give unpredictable behaviour

Ditto this. My young WB was very very aggressive and it was pain related - the vet firstly found low grade ulcers (was expecting bleeding grade 4s the way he behaved) but then we found he has chronic sacro illiac dysfunction - extremely painful for him, so hence he was aggressive - he was literally screaming for help!
He bit me very badly and I kept being told by experienced friends that it was a dominance thing and I had to be leader yada yada yada and I do accept that may be the case in some circumstances. Just remember though any vet will tell you that 99% of aggressive horses are so due to another problem be it physical or they have been abused. Horses do not waste energy attacking humans without very good reason.
Luckily I never struck him - I did growl and holler at him, but I just ignored the bad behaviour and rewarded the good. I would have felt dreadful if I had struck him when he was just showing he was in such pain
Good luck!

 

[YasandCrystal]

Pure dominance behaviour.

The solution takes a bit of groundwork, and I would suggest getting a Parelli instructor. Despite the general hostility towards it, the Parelli approach is very good for horses like this.

I also agree with doing this because if the horse has been doing this for a while then even if you find and cure the cause you will still need to overcome the remembered and familiar behaviour.
We built a roundpen and worked with my WB on the ground (he cant be ridden). Lots of join up and 'backing up' work and some clicker training too. It works despite the bad press on here!

 

[team barney]

Be careful getting into "dominance" games with a horse, unless you are prepared to never let that domination relent you can and most likely will make the situation one hell of a lot worse.

 

[Dolcé]

I remember a horse at an auction that just bit people without warning, a real grip and not let go bite, trying to cause harm. A few months later I met the lady that bought him, he had terrible problems with his teeth and when they were sorted the biting stopped. I would definitely recommend they are checked and then other pain sites ruled out. If nothing physical can be found I think I would be looking at neurological. If this was my horse, unless I could 100% guarantee that she would never be in a position to hurt anyone after all tests had been carried out, then I would be PTS I'm afraid. The damage a horse can do to a human would just make it too risky to keep her and I wouldn't sell the problem on to some innocent person.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

vet check for chronic pain (some vets really aren't up on ulcers so be prepared to ask questions), bloods for hormones and then get a behaviourist in. dominance is the single most over/misused word in canine and equine behaviour..

back in the 80s I was bitten by a mare as I passed (not that close!) by her stable. I still bear the scars I got through 3 layers of clothing including a wax jacket.

 

[YasandCrystal]

vet check for chronic pain (some vets really aren't up on ulcers so be prepared to ask questions), bloods for hormones and then get a behaviourist in. dominance is the single most over/misused word in canine and equine behaviour..

back in the 80s I was bitten by a mare as I passed (not that close!) by her stable. I still bear the scars I got through 3 layers of clothing including a wax jacket.

Wise words

 

[fburton]

Pure dominance behaviour.

Wouldn't that depend on how you defined dominance? It has become very popular to describe any form of aggression as dominance, and vice versa, to the the extent that they are considered by some to be virtually the same thing.

He bit me very badly and I kept being told by experienced friends that it was a dominance thing and I had to be leader yada yada yada and I do accept that may be the case in some circumstances. Just remember though any vet will tell you that 99% of aggressive horses are so due to another problem be it physical or they have been abused. Horses do not waste energy attacking humans without very good reason.

I think your vet was right, and your "experienced" friends were merely following the fashionable line. For a horse to attack you for truly dominance reasons, it would have to view you in some way as a rival or competitor.

Be careful getting into "dominance" games with a horse, unless you are prepared to never let that domination relent you can and most likely will make the situation one hell of a lot worse.

Good advice. Once you start playing dominance games with horses, you have to see it through otherwise aggressive behaviour can become ingrained. But even if you do see it through, the end result can be that aggression (from whatever cause) is merely suppressed and can re-emerge when you least expect it - i.e. it looks like the underlying problem has been solved but it has just been papered over.

dominance is the single most over/misused word in canine and equine behaviour.

Amen!

 

[amandap]

Hmmm, have never dealt much with mares but as the owner thinks she's getting worse with this habit, wondering what's going on??

Personally, I'd be inclined to get a vet check including getting her teeth checked, as it might just be there's a pain issue somewhere? Plus get some bloods done as her hormones might be doing weird things.

I agree along with a full physical. I'd include a dietary review and gut upset especially.
Also agree with some decent professional help and urgently, an objective experienced eye can see stuff those in the thick are unable to see. I'd look here personally http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/specialist-horse-training.html

Try and identify and avoid situations that are likely to provoke a bite and learn to see the signs the mare is getting stressed if possible, wear good thick clothing, and be aware of her and where you and others are at all times etc. etc.

Take care and do get help. I think if a few people have to handle her they should all briefed on a plan of action and stick to it. Everyone handling her in their own 'best' way imo wont cut it, the approach needs to be consistent and supportive imo.
By supportive I mean the yard working together to help this mare and support the owner and each other.

 

[AengusOg]

Pure dominance behaviour.

That is such a PNH response to this problem.

...the Parelli approach is very good for horses like this.

What do you think a Parelli person would do to address this? I've seen Linda's approach to previously mis-handled horses, but is there another way?

 

[Spyda]

Sell it?

 

[AengusOg]

Everyone handling her in their own 'best' way imo wont cut it, the approach needs to be consistent and supportive imo.

That is the crux of the matter. Many horses are driven mad by being handled inconsistently by amateurs who's minds are anywhere but on the handling of the horse. I've seen horses jerked around on ropes, threatened by screaming lassies, physically abused, and made frantic with worry, when what they really needed was a proactive, calm, attentive handler who could read them and would handle them firmly when required.

Aside from any physical complications, it is fear which makes horses aggressive. They quickly learn that if they take the upper hand, they will, to an extent, have an easier life.

Aggressive horses must be watched closely at all times for signs of insecurity and possible aggression. They invariably display signs which warn the experienced handler that trouble is imminent. The handler must pre-empt any aggression by being assertive yet non-domineering, and must not yield to any onslaught from the horse. This requires skill, determination, and bottle, but must be tempered by a sense of fairness, compassion, and self-preservation.

Not a job for the faint-hearted.

 

[tango'smum]

Wouldn't that depend on how you defined dominance? It has become very popular to describe any form of aggression as dominance, and vice versa, to the the extent that they are considered by some to be virtually the same thing.


I think your vet was right, and your "experienced" friends were merely following the fashionable line. For a horse to attack you for truly dominance reasons, it would have to view you in some way as a rival or competitor.


Good advice. Once you start playing dominance games with horses, you have to see it through otherwise aggressive behaviour can become ingrained. But even if you do see it through, the end result can be that aggression (from whatever cause) is merely suppressed and can re-emerge when you least expect it - i.e. it looks like the underlying problem has been solved but it has just been papered over.


Amen!

i had a dog like this very aggressive, trainer said its dominance so they told me what to do how to do it , he got worse and worse... went to a behaviourist, it was fear aggresstion... so yes dominance is over used!!

 

[brucea]

I knew a small and very pretty girl who had a large horse that bit occasionally.

One day she tried a new tactic.

When the horse nipped her she went straight into a mad screaming fit jumping up and down and yelling as loud as she could - never looking the horse in the eye as she did it.

What was remarkable is that she kept it up for a whole two minutes.

The horse never bit her again - thought about it but decided not to! The rest of us walked around her rather gingerly from then on too!

 

[fburton]

I knew a small and very pretty girl who had a large horse that bit occasionally.

One day she tried a new tactic.

When the horse nipped her she went straight into a mad screaming fit jumping up and down and yelling as loud as she could - never looking the horse in the eye as she did it.

What was remarkable is that she kept it up for a whole two minutes.

The horse never bit her again - thought about it but decided not to! The rest of us walked around her rather gingerly from then on too!

Nice story, and the last bit made me chuckle! What's stands out for me is that the girl solved the nipping problem in a uniquely human way, her screaming fit being sufficient punishment to stop the offending behaviour.