Dangerous horse sold to child

[Hoof_Prints]

Posting on behalf of a friend, so I may not have all of the details.

A 13 year old and father went to view a horse from a reputable dealer. They bought it with a vetting for around 6k and it's been trouble from day 1. It was trialed in the school only.

This horse was described as safe, sane, easy and suitable for an inexperienced rider. On the first day riding at home, it reared up vertical as soon as the leg asked for canter, and proceeded to chuck the girl off in a nasty manner. The horse is on a yard with lots of experience and knowledge, the girl is a competent rider and has ridden sharp competition types before. All of the obvious things were looked in to, and the dealer visited to "help" but just suggested this horse needed more schooling , so I'm told. The horse was sold as ready to go out competing and well schooled.

After a month of dangerous rearing and bucking, the dealer has agreed to sell the horse on their behalf; if they can organise transport to her new yard which is the other end of the country, but not offer a refund. The horse has a dodgy "replacement" passport and is not worth £1k as it is, in my opinion. It has separation anxiety and is dangerous to ride!

So where do they stand? the horse is not fit for purpose, and not as described. They will never get anywhere near the money back from selling, and it's passing on a dangerous horse. They have video footage of the behaviour and a young girl was put at serious risk.

Any help appreciated! I can forward it on to them.

Thanks

 

[PeterNatt]

Consumer Rights Act 1 October 2015
Covers all goods including horses, livery yards, riding lessons and horsebox repairs.
Buyers have the right to a 30 day refund for faulty, not as described (always keep advert) or not fit for purpose goods bought from a business such as dealers.
Even after 30 days have passed the buyer can still be entitled to a refund - full if under 6 months, or partial if over 6 months but must allow the trader to repair or replace the item first.

However if you buy privately this does not apply.

Under the new ruling those who do not apply 'reasonable care' as agreed with the consumer will have to put things right such as redo the job or give some money back.

Under the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 the supplier has a responsibility to supply goods that are of satisfactory quality, being free of inherent defects, durable and fit for purpose.
Services should be provided with reasonable care and skill and that any goods should be of satisfactory quality.

Letter before action www.which.co.uk/legal

Under the Unfair Contract Tems Act 1977, the supplier can’t exclude their responsibility under the Supply of Goods and Services Act1982. Your rights under the Act require the to provide goods that are of satisfactory quality.
When goods have an inherent defect, abd you’re not in a position to reject them within a reasonable time, you can insist that the seller provides a remedy, repair or replacement. They should do this within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to you. Any warranty is in addition to your statutory rights, not instead of them. If you have to issue legal proceedings, you have up to six years to do so in England and Wales, five in Scotland.

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 can be relied upon where there are no explicit terms. The main provision of the act are that goods should be of ‘satisfactory quality’ and ‘fit for their purpose’ which is where the requirements of a business sale comes in.

If someone is acting in the course of a business with a view to making a profit or a history of a course of dealings can be shown then section 14 of the act which relates to implied terms about quality of fitness will apply to the sale. The sellers multiple adverts are good evidence of a course of dealing.

They stay in business because no one actually takes any concrete action against them. So they've spent the money, so what, small claims court costs very little to institute proceedings. When you win & get a judgement move the judgement on to the High Court Sherriffs for them to enforce the order. They will either get cash or seize goods to the value of the debt. This service does not cost a vast amount & they do get results. To many people believe what the sellers say about spending the money & haven't got any money to repay. They lied when they sold the horse & they are probably lying now! Get the court judgement & then let loose the sherriffs & go for the jugular!
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...gue-Dealers-Staffs-Derbys#s8w4tS5pOxxcOiDo.99

 

[Parly]

Posting on behalf of a friend, so I may not have all of the details.

A 13 year old and father went to view a horse from a reputable dealer. They bought it with a vetting for around 6k and it's been trouble from day 1. It was trialed in the school only.

This horse was described as safe, sane, easy and suitable for an inexperienced rider. On the first day riding at home, it reared up vertical as soon as the leg asked for canter, and proceeded to chuck the girl off in a nasty manner. The horse is on a yard with lots of experience and knowledge, the girl is a competent rider and has ridden sharp competition types before. All of the obvious things were looked in to, and the dealer visited to "help" but just suggested this horse needed more schooling , so I'm told. The horse was sold as ready to go out competing and well schooled.

After a month of dangerous rearing and bucking, the dealer has agreed to sell the horse on their behalf; if they can organise transport to her new yard which is the other end of the country, but not offer a refund. The horse has a dodgy "replacement" passport and is not worth £1k as it is, in my opinion. It has separation anxiety and is dangerous to ride!

So where do they stand? the horse is not fit for purpose, and not as described. They will never get anywhere near the money back from selling, and it's passing on a dangerous horse. They have video footage of the behaviour and a young girl was put at serious risk.

Any help appreciated! I can forward it on to them.

Thanks

Don't like the sound of the dealer agreeing to "sell the horse on their behalf" because to me that implies your friend is still essentially responsible for the sale which leaves her wide open.

Seems a straightforward issue of the horse not being fit for purpose and being evident almost immediately so don't see how he can refuse to refund or replace with a more suitable horse.

Jacqui Fulton is supposed to be fantastic at dealing with this type of case it might be worth dropping her a line. Might offer a free consultation to give initial advice but I would not let the dealer sell this horse on behalf of the friend.

She could end up neck deep in legal disputes.

http://www.equinelawuk.co.uk/

 

[be positive]

In what way is the passport dodgy? was this not picked up by the vet? I think the dealer has to refund or replace and it is extremely convenient that they have moved away so soon after selling it, have the bloods taken at vetting been run?

 

[Hoof_Prints]

Thanks, very helpful. I said the same to her about selling on their behalf, and the horse may become injured .

The passport itself is legit, but it's a Pet ID replacement passport, issued very quickly when the documents supplied do not match the horse. This was issued after the horse arrived from Ireland, not long before it was sold to my friend. I wish they'd spoken to me before purchasing! but it happened so quickly. The passport is basically just a blank document to travel with the horse. Any history is untraceable... convenient .

No idea about blood, I will ask

 

[be positive]

Thanks, very helpful. I said the same to her about selling on their behalf, and the horse may become injured .

The passport itself is legit, but it's a Pet ID replacement passport, issued very quickly when the documents supplied do not match the horse. This was issued after the horse arrived from Ireland, not long before it was sold to my friend. I wish they'd spoken to me before purchasing! but it happened so quickly. The passport is basically just a blank document to travel with the horse. Any history is untraceable... convenient .

No idea about blood, I will ask

Has the microchip been checked, if it was registered in Ireland with a breed society, you don't say what type it is but if it looks smart the chances are it is registered, then you should be able to track it back, there is every chance it has a history that the dealer wanted to hide and getting a new passport was the easiest way, totally wrong and makes a mockery of the whole point of having them, it still should have been pointed out at the vetting it should not have entered here without one so the vet has missed a basic part of the vetting or accepted the word of a dealer, not very professional.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Friend should speak to Trading Standards, consumer rights apply to horses as much as to anything else. It would seem that horse was mis-described by the dealer.

 

[Snitch]

Will trading standards be able to help?

I assume the father made the payment (so the horse was sold to him), but if it was, as your title says, 'sold to a child' then that's not legal as a child cannot sign legal documents/contracts.

Hope you get a good and the right outcome!

 

[Hoof_Prints]

Yes, the horse was sold to the father to be ridden by his daughter. I asked about the microchip, but it wasn't really acknowledged so I will explain that to them again. It certainly is a mockery of the system, and a very good way for covering up issues. The horse looks like a grey ISH/Tb type, sold as Connie x ISH which is interesting, as no breeding is known! Connemara does sound nice in an advert though. The horse clearly has another passport somewhere, one that needs to be hidden for some reason.

 

[Parly]

What I would do (from father's point of view I mean) is write a letter / email and put down in writing his concerns and his worries about the horse being unsuitable / potentially dangerous and unfit for purpose.

Point out what the dealer has offered as a means of resolving issues including selling the horse on his behalf and be absolutely clear he is not willing to agree or authorise the dealer to make any decision on his behalf.

He's not a dealer nor is he qualified to make a safe and professional judgement regarding the horse so it's important he gets rid of any potential comeback. Might even be wise to say he (as the current owner) does not want the horse to be sold or re-homed at all unless and until it's been assessed by a professional because of the potential risks to other buyers and riders.

Get that emailed and sent in the post via recorded delivery. It's a little thing but will offer him some protection in case this dealer passes the horse to someone else saying he's only acting as the middleman and (God forbid) they end up seriously injured.

 

[Equi]

What happened when the pony was trialed? Whats changed since that? How long did the seller have it? What tack is it in? Has a vet/chiro seen it? Whats its current living situation? How does that differ from the way it was kept? So many questions to be asked. They paid 6k for this pony, it clearly had a reason to be sold for that money. As for the "worth 1k as it is" sorry but its not worth a £ as it is if it is dangerous.

 

[Parly]

All of the obvious things were looked in to, and the dealer visited to "help" but just suggested this horse needed more schooling

This tickled me. Made me mentally go "So..? Take him back and crack on then quick as you can eh?"

 

[be positive]

Yes, the horse was sold to the father to be ridden by his daughter. I asked about the microchip, but it wasn't really acknowledged so I will explain that to them again. It certainly is a mockery of the system, and a very good way for covering up issues. The horse looks like a grey ISH/Tb type, sold as Connie x ISH which is interesting, as no breeding is known! Connemara does sound nice in an advert though. The horse clearly has another passport somewhere, one that needs to be hidden for some reason.

There is every chance it has a microchip and recorded breeding in a ISH or pb connie passport, I would try and find out more to have a stronger case to take forward, if the passport was lost for a reason then not only is the dealer in the wrong for miss selling he is also guilty of an offence regarding the passport fraud which will be more clearly defined as far as the law goes as it is illegal to apply for a new one from a different agency, the new one, if it is genuine, should be filled in by a vet with a microchip done at the same time so he may well have 2 microchips to check for.
Either way it needs looking into as it will be a far easier way to get the money back if it is a different horse to the one they thought they were buying as the evidence will be there, being badly behaved and unsuitable for purpose can be a matter of opinion and open to interpretation if it goes to court, committing passport fraud will be far more clear cut and potentially lead to a fine, it may also implicate the vet involved with issuing it if he has 2 microchips.

 

[Hoof_Prints]

What happened when the pony was trialed? Whats changed since that? How long did the seller have it? What tack is it in? Has a vet/chiro seen it? Whats its current living situation? How does that differ from the way it was kept? So many questions to be asked. They paid 6k for this pony, it clearly had a reason to be sold for that money. As for the "worth 1k as it is" sorry but its not worth a £ as it is if it is dangerous.

I said "it's not worth 1k" as it is, implying it's worth nothing as a dangerous ride. As far as I know, the horse behaved well to be trialed in the school, but from what I gather, the horse has separation anxiety and an explosive temperament. The horse is being kept in a similar routine to before, and the tack was fitted correctly to the horse. I think different styles of saddle were tried in the timescale, and nothing improved the behaviour. I think the main issue is rearing, and I'm talking vertical rears. As I said, not my horse so I don't know every detail. The dealer sells all of their horses for that kind of figure, all different types, so I suppose it's a good price to aim for profit-wise.

I will push them to try and find out more history, the passport situation is very odd and there is not actually anyone registered in it at all. I know most dealers, and even private owners carry on without changing ownership, but surely the passport must be issued to someone, and that someone needs to be recorded in the ownership details? Odd. I've had a horse with two microchips before and a second passport, fortunately the horse was a saint and without issues! but you can see how something dodgy can easily be covered up.

Who would you contact with the microchip number?

The latest idea from the dealer is to replace the horse instead of offering a refund.

 

[Hoof_Prints]

What I would do (from father's point of view I mean) is write a letter / email and put down in writing his concerns and his worries about the horse being unsuitable / potentially dangerous and unfit for purpose.

Point out what the dealer has offered as a means of resolving issues including selling the horse on his behalf and be absolutely clear he is not willing to agree or authorise the dealer to make any decision on his behalf.

He's not a dealer nor is he qualified to make a safe and professional judgement regarding the horse so it's important he gets rid of any potential comeback. Might even be wise to say he (as the current owner) does not want the horse to be sold or re-homed at all unless and until it's been assessed by a professional because of the potential risks to other buyers and riders.

Get that emailed and sent in the post via recorded delivery. It's a little thing but will offer him some protection in case this dealer passes the horse to someone else saying he's only acting as the middleman and (God forbid) they end up seriously injured.

I will forward this on to them, thank you

 

[be positive]

It sounds as if the dealer may have had a "spare" passport, nothing would surprise me, the first place I would contact would be horsesport ireland, they should have everything on file although it may not prove easy to find as you wont have a name the microchips are issued by them for everything along with taking the dna from foals.

I agree the passport should be in someones name to even be issued by the PIO, I would also contact pet id as they have issued it and are implicated if the details are not in there, it makes a mockery of the whole system if they just hand them out like that because to my knowledge a vet must fill it in, although I had one a few years ago that was done in pencil and incomplete, no written description other than age, only one side of the diagram was marked, it was coloured so I think the vet left it for the owner to complete as it took too long, the PIO still issued the passport which was a joke as I could have easily rubbed out the markings and used it for any other horse but it did have the owner and vets details in it.

 

[brighteyes]

Thanks, very helpful. I said the same to her about selling on their behalf, and the horse may become injured .

The passport itself is legit, but it's a Pet ID replacement passport, issued very quickly when the documents supplied do not match the horse. This was issued after the horse arrived from Ireland, not long before it was sold to my friend. I wish they'd spoken to me before purchasing! but it happened so quickly. The passport is basically just a blank document to travel with the horse. Any history is untraceable... convenient .

No idea about blood, I will ask

That will be a livery sale and likely cost them per week plus commission.