Dare I Say It?

Singing Dawg

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I have read a few threads on here with pics of horses asking "how do they look?" or "what do you think of....?".

Usually the majority of comments seem to be quite complimentary and I wonder, how many of us put what we really think? or do we not reply at all in case we offend the owner/rider or, heaven forbid, alienate ourself?

The thread that prompted me to start this one showed to me, a young horse rather unhappy in his work, forced outline, stiff, resistant in his jaw, in a way he looked depressed. I must have been the only person who saw him this way though, as all the comments were positive and admiring. Yes it was a nice enough horse, but to me an unhappy one being made to do something he wasn't very happy with.

A couple of times in the last few weeks I have posted on threads which were started about breeding, and I was querying the "need to breed". Until my query all the posts were ooooohs and ahhhs for the lovely foalie, but when I had said my bit the whole tone changed and posts became more grown up and sensible. Perhaps that's the difference between new lounge and here tho? But saying that, this thread is about threads in here!

Going to bed soon so please be quick with the lynching :D
 

FfionWinnie

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I would attempt to be tactful and if it was really bad and I just couldn't be nice in any way, I probably wouldn't reply.

Having been at the sharp end of an HHO lynching "your horse is lame, your saddle doesn't fit, you can't ride, its dragging along on the forehand" I would not want to make anyone feel how that thread made me feel!

There are ways and means of getting your point across, I am not the most tactful but it is possible to wait til someone tactful comes along and agree with them :eek:

I think it's safer in here than NL mostly!!
 

Lolo

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I don't understand these posts. Why not speak your mind, unless it's been said that input is unwanted? I mean, you have to be nice and and polite, but you could say what you want to in a tactful way... Such as offering advice or whatever. Rather than starting a veiled and mildly pointless post.

Sorry. I don't really believe in standing back and feeling smug. Standing back, yes, especially if requested. But this is just smuggery and it sits funny with me.
 

Mondy

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If I have to choose between pointing out less palatable aspects about something or other and gratifying a rider at the possible expense of the horse, I would always pick the first.

I don't understand this compulsive need to 'play nice' - surely people who live/work with horses are well aware that this is a world where you never stop learning?
 

Orchardbeck

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If it were me asking for advice, and I have once, I would appreciate honesty far more than a 'love your horse' post as a response. I have had genuine concerns over my horse's overall condition and weight over the year following laminitis and a colic episode, and being on my own (horse kept at home), it is sometimes difficult to be objective. I would much rather someone told me the truth than held back in case it would offend - it is my horse that is at stake.
 

LEC

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I do not think CR is used as a how are they looking terribly often?
Also how can you truly tell what is going on in a photo or video to pass comment unless you know more history?
I think it's one of those situations that needs to taken carefully and one of the reasons I do not post videos and photos. I know my faults, have trusted opinions I can use so do not need someone who thinks they can talk, the talk but actually cannot walk, the walk!
 

glamourpuss

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The thing about criticism is to make it constructive there has to be a way forward from what you see as the problem.
Also there's a way of delivering feedback that makes it much more palatable. We call it the poo sandwich....you sandwich the bad within 2 positives.
Eg,
' I really like your horse's active back leg there looks like there's a lot of power housed in there. He does look quite tight/tense in this picture though, does he feel like this? I rode one that would become tight, I found riding long & low really helped. A great exercise with a horse as active behind as this would be keeping them long & low but spiralling in & out in leg yield on a circle. This will keep the engine motoring & encourage them to work over their back. I should imagine you shouldn't have a problem with this exercise, you've got a lovely seat & a lower leg position to due for'

Now receiving the above is much nicer & constructive than a lot of the replies I've seen on here. Whether its people just don't want to type out long responses I don't know but you tend to get.
'To me he looks tight & tense'
A few of those in a succession & yes, it can feel like an assisination. That is why I don't post pictures/reports my confidence is just far too brittle to take this. Constructive crit, yes. Ripping apart, no.
There is also a pack mentality (much more prevalent in NL) one person posts a negative & this gives carte Blanche for the world & his keyboard warrier to wade in. This is where a thread disintegrates into rudeness & cheap shots.

I remember one god awful thread on here. PrincessSparkle posted some pictures of CS playing up. Initially there were lots of useful advice coming in but then it just got worse & worse until there were ridiculous/nasty/spiteful comments being thrown in under the thin veil of 'constructive criticism'
My 2 favourites being someone commenting on how thin PS was & another saying she should stop spending all her money on matchy matchy & get proper investigations done......nice :(
 

Jools1234

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if i post i am honest and often the original post puts things like 'you dont know me how can you say that?' type replies, if someone asks for an opinion i assume they want an opinion if they just post a picture without asking for an opinion i dont usually post
 

Booboos

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I think there are two types of posts that are generally easy to tell apart:

either posts that ask for CC, when it is perfectly acceptable to mention areas for improvement, but any normal human being would present these in a kind and helpful manner, rather than be blunt and hurtful just because it is supposed to be criticism

or posts that ask for admiration

If a post says things like "Look at how gorgeous my boy is!" or "He has improved so much he is fantastic to ride" you know it's of the second kind. Nothing wrong with this kind of post and there are plenty of people around who are happy to take the time to concur.
 

Kelpie

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The thing about criticism is to make it constructive there has to be a way forward from what you see as the problem.
Also there's a way of delivering feedback that makes it much more palatable. We call it the poo sandwich....you sandwich the bad within 2 positives.
Eg,
' I really like your horse's active back leg there looks like there's a lot of power housed in there. He does look quite tight/tense in this picture though, does he feel like this? I rode one that would become tight, I found riding long & low really helped. A great exercise with a horse as active behind as this would be keeping them long & low but spiralling in & out in leg yield on a circle. This will keep the engine motoring & encourage them to work over their back. I should imagine you shouldn't have a problem with this exercise, you've got a lovely seat & a lower leg position to due for'

Now receiving the above is much nicer & constructive than a lot of the replies I've seen on here. Whether its people just don't want to type out long responses I don't know but you tend to get.
'To me he looks tight & tense'
A few of those in a succession & yes, it can feel like an assisination. That is why I don't post pictures/reports my confidence is just far too brittle to take this. Constructive crit, yes. Ripping apart, no.
There is also a pack mentality (much more prevalent in NL) one person posts a negative & this gives carte Blanche for the world & his keyboard warrier to wade in. This is where a thread disintegrates into rudeness & cheap shots.

I remember one god awful thread on here. PrincessSparkle posted some pictures of CS playing up. Initially there were lots of useful advice coming in but then it just got worse & worse until there were ridiculous/nasty/spiteful comments being thrown in under the thin veil of 'constructive criticism'
My 2 favourites being someone commenting on how thin PS was & another saying she should stop spending all her money on matchy matchy & get proper investigations done......nice :(


Hits "like" button :) ... A perfect **** sandwich ;)
 

YasandCrystal

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The worrying thing with forums is that you do not know the age of the poster or their mental health. So without that knowledge unless someone comes on really asking for advice or cc it's a hard call to wade in heavily. They could be 12 years old and frankly many posters come accross as very young :rolleyes:
 

Littlelegs

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I think it depends how constructive it is really. I replied to a post asking advice on something, another poster waded in with rather rude comments about the horses confo. The horse was already bought, the question wasn't anything that could be at all related to the horses confo, so in that case it was unnecessary. A bit like if someone posted a 'how cute' pic of their ancient retired horse, it wouldn't be remotely constructive to say it lacks topline. Whereas a 'how cute' pic of a massively obese pony I would say what I thought. Same for riding really, if it's constructive & I think either horse or rider could benefit from the comment, I'd say what I thought. Whereas if someone posts a pic of say their small child or a novice adult on their first horse, whilst I might say something if they were doing something really detrimental it wouldn't be constructive to just slag off the finer faults of their riding position.
 

YasandCrystal

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The thing about criticism is to make it constructive there has to be a way forward from what you see as the problem.
Also there's a way of delivering feedback that makes it much more palatable. We call it the poo sandwich....you sandwich the bad within 2 positives.
Eg,
' I really like your horse's active back leg there looks like there's a lot of power housed in there. He does look quite tight/tense in this picture though, does he feel like this? I rode one that would become tight, I found riding long & low really helped. A great exercise with a horse as active behind as this would be keeping them long & low but spiralling in & out in leg yield on a circle. This will keep the engine motoring & encourage them to work over their back. I should imagine you shouldn't have a problem with this exercise, you've got a lovely seat & a lower leg position to due for'

Now receiving the above is much nicer & constructive than a lot of the replies I've seen on here. Whether its people just don't want to type out long responses I don't know but you tend to get.
'To me he looks tight & tense'
A few of those in a succession & yes, it can feel like an assisination. That is why I don't post pictures/reports my confidence is just far too brittle to take this. Constructive crit, yes. Ripping apart, no.
There is also a pack mentality (much more prevalent in NL) one person posts a negative & this gives carte Blanche for the world & his keyboard warrier to wade in. This is where a thread disintegrates into rudeness & cheap shots.

I remember one god awful thread on here. PrincessSparkle posted some pictures of CS playing up. Initially there were lots of useful advice coming in but then it just got worse & worse until there were ridiculous/nasty/spiteful comments being thrown in under the thin veil of 'constructive criticism'
My 2 favourites being someone commenting on how thin PS was & another saying she should stop spending all her money on matchy matchy & get proper investigations done......nice :(

^^ Very well said. I too would never post any pics/vids of me riding for cc for same reasons. Having witnessed a lovely young rider struggling to get her young horse jumping and asking for cc in CR and a 'so called pro' was so rude by stating 'all I see is a young horse being ruined by the rider!'. That has stuck with me - the rider in question was lovely sympathetic and focussed by anyone's standards and that comment was downright nasty and untrue.
You definately get some jealousy on here I can think of no other reason to post like that.
 

Luci07

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I would not post photos of my horse or myself asking for CC. I am fully aware of both mine and my horses faults and would be heartbroken if someone thought it was fair play to rip into my boy. I pay for training, I get the CC from that from someone who knows me and that is fair enough. I WILL comment if I feel I am going to be helpful as someone has asked, I am never ever rude or unpleasant to the poster.
 

TableDancer

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The thing about criticism is to make it constructive there has to be a way forward from what you see as the problem.
Also there's a way of delivering feedback that makes it much more palatable. We call it the poo sandwich....you sandwich the bad within 2 positives.
Eg,
' I really like your horse's active back leg there looks like there's a lot of power housed in there. He does look quite tight/tense in this picture though, does he feel like this? I rode one that would become tight, I found riding long & low really helped. A great exercise with a horse as active behind as this would be keeping them long & low but spiralling in & out in leg yield on a circle. This will keep the engine motoring & encourage them to work over their back. I should imagine you shouldn't have a problem with this exercise, you've got a lovely seat & a lower leg position to due for'

Now receiving the above is much nicer & constructive than a lot of the replies I've seen on here.

Totally agree with this, it's all about how you deliver the message. If anyone wants a Masterclass (imo) they should look at what TarrSteps posts, she is an expert at couching the unpalatable in an acceptable form. Mind you, she's also a master at expressing her disapproval so subtly that possibly only those who know her can read her true opinion on what's been posted :p

I think there are two types of posts that are generally easy to tell apart:

either posts that ask for CC, when it is perfectly acceptable to mention areas for improvement, but any normal human being would present these in a kind and helpful manner, rather than be blunt and hurtful just because it is supposed to be criticism

or posts that ask for admiration

If a post says things like "Look at how gorgeous my boy is!" or "He has improved so much he is fantastic to ride" you know it's of the second kind. Nothing wrong with this kind of post and there are plenty of people around who are happy to take the time to concur.

I also agree with this. I only post on the second sort if I really, genuinely like the photo/vid/poster/whatever, otherwise I just stay ou tof it :)

Mind you, I rarely post on the first sort either, as I also agree with LEC that a photo or even a short video is such a snapshot that, unless we know all the background etc, it's questionable how accurate and/or useful our input is likely to be... And even if the poster gives their version of the background, this will be so coloured by their own view on the situation, which is hardly likely to be objective, that it only helps up to a point.
 

siennamum

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I am faulty of posting responses which depend on how rushed I am or what mood I am in. I post, go to lunch/ride horse, come back & am a bit horrified I was so hasty/critical. Sometimes I write what I might say with a smile without thought to how it reads.

I'm trying to be more considered haha. I've only been here since 2004 so have no excuse really.

I create posts because I want people to tell me I am a brilliant rider and my horses are gorgeous as do many others i suspect. Just get so frustrated that this never happens, can't imagine why.

Generally I just like to over analyse and gossip so am happy whatever. I feel most sorry for people who post and get no responses (been there recently) and so will make the effort to post something nice on those, it genuinely is interesting to see lots of pics and read of people's experiences. It's just a shame we don't have a like button, as I am often underqualified to comment, and will read but say nothing.
 

TarrSteps

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Joking aside, what people post are their OPINIONS and you do have to take them as such. It would be a boring old world if we all agreed! :)

But I do think the cardinal rule should be, "Would I REALLY say this to someone's face?". Not just that you hope/think you would. And, having said whatever, could you defend your position and possibly help the person improve the situation, should they ask.

I'm always a bit sorry that some people seem to have so little support and advice in real life. I've been exceedingly lucky to have been trained by and associated with some brilliant horsemen and wouldn't hesitate to confer with them if I felt I was in over my head. Similarly with books - I have read a lot but there are a few I come back to time and time again because they particularly suit me. The information is out there but I'm not sure it's always best represented on internet forums! ;)
 

jenbleep

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If I have CC to give and the OP has asked for it then yes I would give CC.

On the other hand, if it's just a picture post "look what we did today" type post but I wasn't impressed then I just would read and run :)
 

arizonahoney

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I sometimes have to LOL when the person handing out the advice clearly is not practicing what they preach...but are just repeating parrot fashion what they have read previously.

I also have to snigger at what some people describe as 'schooling' or 'lungeing'.
 

jenbleep

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I sometimes have to LOL when the person handing out the advice clearly is not practicing what they preach...but are just repeating parrot fashion what they have read previously.

That could be said for a lot of advice though - don't do as I do, so as I say! As Mother Bleep would say :)
 

glamourpuss

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Arizonahoney the only thing that makes me snort is really in NL if draw reins are mentioned the majority of posters say things like
'Draw reins are for lazy riders who don't know how to correct a problem. There is no training aid that can replicate correct schooling'
Then literally the next thread, the very same posters are 'advising' someone that the best way to build top line is to lunge in a Pessoa.
It does make me snort a little to myself & I mentally add them to my list of Internet stoopids ;)
 

MerrySherryRider

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Why the snobbery about NL ? I hadn't realised that CR was exclusive.

Me, I just click on New Posts and read whatever appears most interesting regardless of where it's been posted and as far as I'm aware, my posting style is the same across the board.
 

arizonahoney

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A peach is 'why not school while you hack'? I'm sure it's possible...it's just often not plausible given the source of said advice.

Apologies if I am being overly cynical :eek:
 

Firewell

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I have mentioned once or twice if I really did think something was amiss and only as one horse owner to another as a sounding board for discussion nothing more but I have been on here since 2008 and it really has only been once or twice.!
Most pictures posted in here look nice though I think! Nice horse, nice rider. We're not all the most talented or best riders in the world so I don't think 'oooh that lower leg position isn't perfect' or 'that horse isn't quite tracking up' as I don't think I am that amazing my self to critise!
I think it is nice to be complimentary to people, we are all at different stages, have different aims and different horses and we do things different ways. Unless it looks really bad and the animal is suffering I think it is a good thing to be positive to people, it shows support.
 

glamourpuss

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Why the snobbery about NL ? I hadn't realised that CR was exclusive.

Me, I just click on New Posts and read whatever appears most interesting regardless of where it's been posted and as far as I'm aware, my posting style is the same across the board.

There isn't any snobbery. I post equally in both boards. BUT I stand by what I say the pack mentality is much more prevalent there, you only need to look at how many threads descend into multi page arguments (luckily a much rarer event in CR)
Also there is a much different experience to posting in NL. It is a bigger part of the board with many more posters. Also there is a heavy bias (I say bias not ALL) towards barefoot, out 24/7, unrugged, hacking and low level competing.
In CR there are some very high end competing posters - Badminton, Burghley, Grand Prix dressage, International show jumping. So you do get a much different type of advice in here. This is just observation.
 

MerrySherryRider

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Yes, its true that CR has some excellent advice from some very talented riders. It is also easier to have some idea of who people are, but NL has a different, broader role and shouldn't be disparaged.
The other sub forums offer equally excellent advice covering a vast range of topics, along with some weird and whacky ideas too, but for the discerning, ie; not gullible, member,you can shift the good from the bad. No sub forum is superior to another.
 

glamourpuss

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Yes, its true that CR has some excellent advice from some very talented riders. It is also easier to have some idea of who people are, but NL has a different, broader role and shouldn't be disparaged.
The other sub forums offer equally excellent advice covering a vast range of topics, along with some weird and whacky ideas too, but for the discerning, ie; not gullible, member,you can shift the good from the bad. No sub forum is superior to another.


Absolutely, agree I agree especially the last paragraph. An example being if it wasn't for NL I wouldn't have completely rethought everything I was doing with regards to feeding. Its saved me a fortune, my horses look fab and are sane. There is a lot of knowledge out there :)
 
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