De gogues

[tuscanyD]

You don't see them used much but I really like them - Elwyn Hartley edwards rates them highly as an effective aid that does not use force.

I have recently bought one and my mare lunges beautifully in it and I will go on to ride in it.

Does anyone here use them regularly?

EHE description of how it works [its in his book and may be online somwhere] clearly favours the argument that the horse must lower his head and round before he can free his back and work through from behind.

I know many trainers teach riders to really power their horses forward first to get engagement and the horse on the bit. Many riders find this very hard to do [me among them in my mature years]

Do these ideas conflict? Is it matter of a little one and a little of the other for the best result? Or should never the twain meet?


Discuss

 

[Tierra]

Let me first start by saying I havent used a de gogue so I cant comment on how they work. I dont really use training aids as my horse is only lunged once in a blue moon (we both hate it).

I will comment on the other part though

Firstly, it somewhat depends on your definition of "on the bit". I hate this term with a passion. Lots of people seem obliged to make their horses work "on the bit" and that, in my opinion, is where the problems start.

For me, a horse that is on the bit is sat back on its haunches, working through its back, light in the hand and flexed at the poll.

Now, consider the spanish riding schools definition of an outline (remember these are the people who originally sat the standards!). The highest point of the horse's neck must be the poll. Picture that on your horse, that is to say, picture how that would look if you were sat on the horse and you soon start to see that the actual neck carriage is rather high.

That for me is the ideal. Precisely because this is what I am for, I see no reason for the "lower his head" action. Why would I want to do this? Doing this forces the outline to break mid way along the neck. Thats not what Im aiming for at all, so for me, forcing the head down is just counter productive to my end aim. Do you see what Im getting at ?

I work my horses from back to front. So yes, I power the forwards into a light rein and let this in itself create self carriage. When this happens they sit back on their hocks and the head comes up with flexion at the poll. This is precisely what we want!

You mention that many riders find this hard to do - I agree completly. However, I think a lot of this comes back to the fact that they arent sat correctly. This isnt the riders fault. Many many trainers dont try and explain to people how they should feel. Sure, its hard to explain how anyone should feel, but surely it should be attempted? Riding is about feel after all so surely there should be some vague attempt on the part of the trainer to help the rider understand what they should be feeling and aiming for?

You say that you particularly find it hard to work the horse from behind. Do you mind me asking what it is you have difficulty with?

Perhaps if you can explain what it is you do and how the horse goes or feels as a result, I might be able to make some suggestions

A side issue of all this is that if you work on the theory that the head needs to drop first to THEN ask for engagement, then how are you asking for the head to drop in the first place? Most riders will do so by fiddling with the reins. Im not a rein fiddler because i think it causes problems later on. In this fiddling, you often see riders finally drag their horses heads down (they will be broken at a point mid way up the neck by the way) and the whole combination (horse and rider), then tip straight onto their forehands. Getting your horse to sit back from this point is considerably more difficult than doing so by pushing the horse forwards into the contact!

I would like to stress one thing though. Whilst I dont use gadgets myself, I do understand the use of them in horses that have been allowed to evade the contact for a long time (causing a build up of muscle under the neck rather than over the top).

I dont really want to get into the argument of whether its right to use them or not because Im of the opinion that what people do with their horses is totally upto them. But the above is just my feeling on the subject

 

[katiejaye]

I lunge my horse in a de gogue once a week and wouldn't use anything else. I started using one a few years ago as Louis tended to tense over his back and overbend his neck and duck behind the bit. I have never liked side reins as Louis just tended to lean on them or duck behind them. I think every horse and rider is different but I do agree (in my case) that stretching the horse down and round helps me to establish more hind movement and to loosten Louis up over his back. I find that the de gogue encourages louis more down and round without "fixing" his head. I usually like to lunge him the day after competing to stretch him out over his back and neck.

I do use the same theory when I ride and like to get louis moving long and low and powering from behind to start. This way when I pick up the reins and establish a contact he is more consistent in his head carriage and moving much better over his back and through his hind.

 

[katiejaye]

[ QUOTE ]
However, I think a lot of this comes back to the fact that they arent sat correctly. This isnt the riders fault. Many many trainers dont try and explain to people how they should feel. Sure, its hard to explain how anyone should feel, but surely it should be attempted? Riding is about feel after all so surely there should be some vague attempt on the part of the trainer to help the rider understand what they should be feeling and aiming for?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you make a very good point here. I am very lucky to have a fantastic trainer and the first thing he mentioned when I first moved to his yard was my position. He persuaded me to change my saddle (which was pushing my legs forward and tipping me) which made the world of difference to how I sit and Louis moves. He has worked over the last few wks to get my legs stronger and lengthened, my hands consistent etc. It has mad the world of difference to Louis and I. Instead of travelling with a low, round head carriage he now has a much higher and correctly flexed neck and is moving through his back. Not only that but his body shape has completely changed and he developed a much stronger hind. Lateral movements that used to prove very difficult are now coming so much easier...and this is all due to the way I am sitting! Oh and plus I am suffering much less back pain than I used to!

The dressage piccies in my sig bellow are moons away from how he used to go and my old position. We still have work to do to get his hind stronger but he is def 95% stronger!

 

[eohippus]

I have not used a de gogue so am interested int he comments made.
However, in regards to encouraging a long low outline it all depends on the ability, strength and balance the horse has at the time. IMO, if you ask too quickly for a head carraige that is high, and the horse is not balanced or strong enough, then you will get a high head carriage, tense jowl and hollow back, it will not necessarily encourage the horse to engage or use its back properly, the shoulders will not open, (so the strides will get choppy,) to help with balance because the neck is being held and not allowed to do its job. If however, the horse is encouraged to work long and low to stretch and round the back then it is far easier for the horse to tip its pelvis under, open its shoulders and use the correct neck muscles for balance and have a supple jowl allowing the horse to breath and be soft in the lower jaw.
as the horse strengthens both in musclular awareness and balance the pelvis will tip further allowing more engagement and the shoulders remain open, the neck will effectively allow for natural balance and there will be a raise to the head but there will also be a round strong back to carry the rider. Hope that makes sense.
and I absolutely agree that not enough is being done to explain what the rider is suposed to feel. There is so much emphasis on techniques and not enough psychology.
Regards
Dawn

 

[tuscanyD]

"You say that you particularly find it hard to work the horse from behind. Do you mind me asking what it is you have difficulty with?"

Ah not quite what I said or meant
"I know many trainers teach riders to really power their horses forward first to get engagement and the horse on the bit."

there is a school of teaching that gets the rider to drive the horse very powerfully forward - often knowingly sacrificing rhyhtmn and balance - until the horse properly engages its quarters and lightens its forehand. I'm not saying it doesn't work because it obviously does!

BUT many don't find this particular style of riding very easy. They aren't fit enough or secure enough in their position to ride the horse that way and keep in balance. Plus they don't find it especially pleasurable because puts them under a lot of physical pressure.

I don't find it easy these days because I am unfit and out of practise - when I was working full time in the industry and very fit - I could certainly manage the physical effort and maintain my position but really just didn't enjoy it.

Now I come to write about it I think its because although it was effective it destroyed any feel and subtlety I had of seat weight etc. Granted if I'd stuck at it maybe that would have developed - but as I say I didn't find that style pleasurable.


But it is possible to work the horse from behind. I have trained regularly with a classical trainer who advocates that position is everything. And i agree with the comments that riders struggle because they arent sat correctly. But it is very hard to teach those subtleties when driving the horse around the school at a spanking trot in order to get that engagement. Also as the horses are often unbalanced and lacking rhthmn it makes it harder for the rider to correct herself. Chicken and egg.


It is possible to teach the rider to sit correctly andbalance the horse at a slower pace. once you have rhythm and balance from both - ie a horse not running on its forehand - then you can put the extra impulsion in and the rider will be equipped to deal with it.

re long and low - my classical instructor insists that the horse must work freely into a long outline and seek the contact from the leg. This does not mean speed or lots of revs but by teaching the rider to sit in balance and balance the horse - and applying the leg aid the hore will develop an elastic pace and regular rhythmn plus will actively seek the contact.

The idea is not that it should be overbent and broken in the middle of its neck but that it should reach forward and open its throat to allow the back muscles to stretch and develop. this allows increased engagement of the quarters and as training progresses the head carriage raises.

Horse driven into a high head carriage can find it hard to learn to stretch forward correctly [eg free walk].

I dont think either way is wrong - and recently read something suggesting that different styles have evolved from the type of horse. ie the lighter more fiery spanish horses require a different style to the more laid back and phlegmatic german style warmblood breeds.