Dealing with a kicker

[risky business]

Hi guys, I haven't posted in a while but now in need of some advice.

I've got this horse and his behaviour is becoming a bit of an issue. Now he's always been a bit 'quirky' from what I know about him and I was fully prepared for some of these quirks to be on the undesirable side.

The issue is kicking, now the thing is with him is it's quite unpredictable in nature and doesn't happen everytime. I will say now this horse has had lameness work ups, bloods, xrays, saddle, teeth and back all looked at and I'm 100% convinced this is not a physical issue. Hes been on the same yard, same routine and same feed. No tack changes or herd changes.

I first noticed when hacking in company, one day out the blue like a bat out of hell he just kicked out at the horse next to him. At first I thought it may have been a one off incident but has since done it again with no warning what so ever and randomly. So from then on I always hacked at the back and not had an issue with that since.

The rest of the kicking behaviour is purely related to being asked to do something he clearly doesnt want to do! It's not always directed at someone either. So I can bring him into his stable and when hes decided he's done being inside he will kick out at walls or just into the air. There was a few incidents where the girls where trying to do his leg straps on his rug and just out of no where has kicked out even though he'd been having these straps done for weeks with no issue and again went weeks before doing it again. When hes being bathed which he doesn't enjoy so keep to a minimum will again kick out when he's decided he's done.

Just over a week ago brought him in I tacked him up in gear for me to long line and took him to the school. Stood there like a lamb whilst I sorted the lines out, I went to walk out and around him when out of no where he spun kicked out breaking my ribs before doing a runner around the school...

Today I turned him out and was doing his water at the front of his field. He then decided to go for a gallop round before running past me and kicking out as he went past! Now the kick was aimed in my direction but was not close enough to get me.

I just feel hes getting ridiculous now! I was willing with a few incidents to change a few things such as hacking at the back, keeping baths to a minimum and just being aware of him when handling. However the kicking out in my direction and actually getting me is too far now and I've slowly lost all trust in him and feel he's actually doing it to be naughty.

I know in his previous home he was basically pandered to, turned out first, bought in first, if he started a fuss was given what he wanted which has not helped in the slightest! I feel like this is where its stemmed from! Its really hard to correct the behaviour when it is just so random as well.

I've done things such as when he's in and decides he's done and wants out equalling in a tantrum just ignored the behaviour until he settles before rewarding the settled behaviour. Not turning out first or bring in first and ignoring any tantrums that ensue at him not getting his own way. It doesn't really seem to be improving however.. I'm just a bit stuck on where to go from here? I've done ground work with him where I get him to move his feet in directions I ask of him, desensitization of the back legs although I have no issues picking his feet out or grooming the back legs?! Just a bit stumped now as it needs dealing with before he hurts someone and quite frankly I'm getting tired of his tantrums and theres a growing number of liveries who would rather I just get shot of him.

Help?!

 

[AmyMay]

His previous owners probably pandered to him because it worked.

 

[Brownmare]

Be careful. I knew a horse like this years ago and he ended up kicking someone in the chest (for the sin of changing his rug) and putting her in intensive care for a week.

 

[chaps89]

There are times when pandering to a horses behaviour is actually the safest thing to do - if bringing him in first means he's calmer to deal with then why make life harder for yourself in trying to do something different?

Equally, if you think it might be a dominance or behavioural based problem then given as all physical issues have been ruled out, I would be looking to enlist the help of someone like Richard Maxwell, Jason Webb, a Kelly Marks type person.

Ignoring the behaviour isn't making it go away, and in fact seems like it's getting worse so it either needs to be addressed by accommodating the horse because he's telling you things aren't working for him right now (I'm not down with letting them get away with things but do you know what, safety comes first and if a routine or certain way of managing the problem means it's no longer a problem then why wouldn't you) or working with a professional used to these things to get the 2 of you on the same page.

 

[Twohorses]

1. The best thing I did for my kicker who used to be unpredictable was to get him off anything using soy as the protein source and getting him off ALL grains.

That was the point I stopped needing the riding crop in the bath bucket and he was a teenager by then --- I bought him when he was 2-1/2 yrs and I'm still kicking myself that it took so long to figure out he was soy & grain intolerant.

2. The second best thing I did was to put him on Magnesium MALATE. NOT magesnium oxide.

He stayed on that for a couple of years - until this year as he has seemed to have leveled out chemically and does not need the Magnesium Malate.

3. Before finding all this out, during, and even now if I have to -- I will light up the offending leg with 20 seconds of "I am going to kill you".
Sorry I don't care who thinks lighting up a kicking leg is wrong - that's how I've always done it --- behave and you get cookies out the ying-yang. Misbehave and for 20 seconds I can make Hades look good to you.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I wouldn't call it pandering to him but accommodating his needs. Why not try working round his quirks, to keep him calm? It needs a change of mind-set from you really. It's not giving in to him and his ridiculous antics, it's your strategy for keeping you both calm and safe.

ETA, I would also look *very* carefully at his diet. i am rather like Two horses in that I bought a lovely 4 yr old, whoe behaviour deteriorated over time, until I finally realised when she was 12 that her feed was causing her serious physical and behaviour problems.

 

[risky business]

Thing is I can't accommodate to his behaviour all the time.

He lives on a livery yard, I can't always be there to quickly run up the field to grab him first, or turn him out first. He can have one of his tantrums about someone bringing their horse in to ride but because he assumes they are being bought in first can kick off about it. I can't exactly ask people not to ride or go about their business incase it upsets my horse.

I'm not feeding him anything at the moment, no hard feed at all hes on grazing and hay that's it. Hes only on hard feed over winter and theres no behaviour change whether hes on hard feed or not.

I've never dealt with a horse that just thinks it's okay to kick because I didn't do what he wanted quick enough. I guess I just don't think that's acceptable.

 

[JFTDWS]

3. Before finding all this out, during, and even now if I have to -- I will light up the offending leg with 20 seconds of "I am going to kill you".
Sorry I don't care who thinks lighting up a kicking leg is wrong - that's how I've always done it --- behave and you get cookies out the ying-yang. Misbehave and for 20 seconds I can make Hades look good to you.

I'm not sure if I'm being really thick, but... what on earth are you doing to the "offending" leg?!

 

[Bellaboo18]

I wouldn't call it pandering to him but accommodating his needs. Why not try working round his quirks, to keep him calm? It needs a change of mind-set from you really. It's not giving in to him and his ridiculous antics, it's your strategy for keeping you both calm and safe.

Totally agree with this. I've been accused of pandering to one of mine (bitchy last livery yard) but you know what? She's happy and I'm happy, isn't that the point of this hobby?

 

[Bellaboo18]

How long have you had him?

 

[Twohorses]

I'm not sure if I'm being really thick, but... what on earth are you doing to the "offending" leg?!

This horse is 25 and has been with me since he was 2-1/2. He absolutely knows what "do you want a whuppin'" means

I know the frame of mind he is in before he does. If I think he's going to be snarky, I already have the riding crop in a handy spot to grab. As soon as I would see that tail swish and the hoof lifting, that "offending leg" gets laced a good one with the riding crop.

What did you think I was doing? Lollol

"lighting up" is an old-time phrase. It means the horse needs some serious discipline due to lack of good manners.

Not to be confused with "lit up", which means the horse is generally a well marked spotted horse or Appaloosa. In this case, "lit up" adds a lot to the dollar value, regardless of how much "lighting up" the horse's poor manners might need

For the record, I am in the SE U.S. where the phrase "Bless your Heart" does not mean what you think it does, lollol. When it comes out "blessss yourrrrr hartttt", you've just been verbally slapped in the face

 

[Bellaboo18]

This horse is 25 and has been with me since he was 2-1/2. He absolutely knows what "do you want a whuppin'" means

I know the frame of mind he is in before he does. If I think he's going to be snarky, I already have the riding crop in a handy spot to grab. As soon as I would see that tail swish and the hoof lifting, that "offending leg" gets laced a good one with the riding crop.

What did you think I was doing? Lollol

"lighting up" is an old-time phrase. It means the horse needs some serious discipline due to lack of good manners.

Not to be confused with "lit up", which means the horse is generally a well marked spotted horse or Appaloosa. In this case, "lit up" adds a lot to the dollar value, regardless of how much "lighting up" the horse's poor manners might need

For the record, I am in the SE U.S. where the phrase "Bless your Heart" does not mean what you think it does, lollol. When it comes out "blessss yourrrrr hartttt", you've just been verbally slapped in the face

Please don't do this!!

 

[JFTDWS]

"Lighting up" is not a phrase in common usage in my part of the world

One lights up a cigarette, in a manner which would be even more colossally stupid to apply to a horse's leg.

 

[SEL]

When my mare first came to me I'd only enter her stable with a long whip. Ditto catching her. I think I used it twice - hard - in response to being lashed out at.

I still sometimes pick it up if she's being a bit of a madam. I know the signs and she knows that if she tries it then I will kick back. Always tied up in the stable for rugs and a sign on the door banning entry if she's eating.

She's down the pecking order with other horses so kicking out at them isn't an issue.

 

[Ceifer]

I also don’t advocate retaliation.
To me kicking out is an insecure and defensive horse.
I would look at the yard the horse is on. Anything difficult and bordering on dangerous shouldn’t be on a yard where people could get hurt and OP I think you know this is part of your dilemma.
If the horse was mine I would want it in a small professional yard where you aren’t at the mercy of other liveries routines upsetting the horse.
Easier said than done I know.

Also i would never ever long rein any horse that has been known to kick.

 

[risky business]

It's not a large livery yard, its 10 horses all in all. They all live in an American style barn and have Individual turn out but can see one another.

They all in principle have the same routine we have turn out and bring in times. But as I said if someone wants to ride and he thinks they are coming in first it results in the behaviour. No matter how professional the yard horses should be able to be able to come in to be ridden without it being an issue surely?!

 

[piglet2001]

I am afraid that in your situation I would pts the horse. As you have previously said all tests have been done and unless he is a seriously talented competition horse then it is just not worth the risk.

If he is very talented i would place him in a professionals yard.

Please do not long rein him!

Horses are dangerous anyway and we all accept accidents will happen but we can minimise the risks and I would not tolerate or put up with this behaviour.

How would you feel if another livery, a member of staff or the farrier was seriously injured or even killed.

Sorry to be blunt.

 

[bonny]

Poor horse is what I think

 

[Pearlsasinger]

He certainly sounds like a very unhappy horse.

 

[Ceifer]

It's not a large livery yard, its 10 horses all in all. They all live in an American style barn and have Individual turn out but can see one another.

They all in principle have the same routine we have turn out and bring in times. But as I said if someone wants to ride and he thinks they are coming in first it results in the behaviour. No matter how professional the yard horses should be able to be able to come in to be ridden without it being an issue surely?!

In theory yes it shouldn’t be an issue.
But clearly it is for your horse.
I don’t have an answer.
Having had a friend have a quirky horse at home that she managed really well - only two other horses both hers. She had to move the horse to a livery yard due to circumstances beyond her control and now she’s really struggling. It’s not an easy problem to fix.

 

[risky business]

Unfortunately I don't have a private yard that I can micro manage him on and with the hours I work I could never even facilitate that as I could never keep to a strict routine for him.

 

[Twohorses]

I stand by what I say

One has to learn to read what the horse is telling you first.

There's a huge difference in a horse kicking out from fear as opposed to kicking out because it can get away with it and wants to.

To reiterate, this horse has been with me 23 of his 25 years. he has never been a fearful horse. He is an Onery horse and changing his diet helped him immensely.

If people are so intent on saying "please don't do that", when you don't know the whole history, I hope you are also paying attention to my "change the diet" part as it certainly can be a large part of the problem.

My horses don't even begin to get on the mistreat scale. Every professional that's ever worked on ALL of them goes into their stalls and starts working (including drawing blood) before I can get a halter in my hand.

They all compliment me on how polite & well mannered my horses are. If my horses were fearful of being disciplined, it would stick out like a sore thumb to any of the professionals who work on them.

My reputation in my area as a good and fair horse caregiver is well respected. I let the punishment fit the crime because I know my horses. One horse never gets diciplined because he never does anything wrong. They are just like children -- some never do wrong because that's their heart condition while others in the same family just can't seem to stay out of trouble.

End of subject on my part and my last comment since this is quickly going south --- we will agree to disagree

I didn't think this picture loaded. This is Mr. Onery --- he looks terrible and fearful doesn't he---

 

[Ceifer]

Unfortunately I don't have a private yard that I can micro manage him on and with the hours I work I could never even facilitate that as I could never keep to a strict routine for him.

Not many people do. I really do feel for you. It’s not an easy situation to be in.

 

[TPO]

I bought a horse that transpired to have serious aggression issues. I dont for one minute think he was badly treated in his old home but perhaps spoiled. I bought him knowing he was a cribber and he was very underweight so ulcers, amongst other things, were definitely causing issues.

He would strike out with front legs and cow kick with Hinds- he was very agile! Just to make matters worse he had a field accident where he stood on himself and cut his hind fetlock through to the bone; I was there and saw it happen.

He was so bad that the vet struggled to treat him and he fought sedation. He ended up on 10wks box rest and needed his dressing changed daily. I ended up doing his dressing changes and dealing with proud flesh as the vet was too scared to go in the stable with him 😳 It was not a fun time!

I'm not entirely sure how I dealt with it now that I'm thinking about it. I was firm with him and tried never to back down even although this did involve wearing a thick puffa jacket, hat and gloves for protection. He did not like being verbally told no; he would try to bite and lunge or snake at me.

So it started with making him back up every time I went in the stable. I spent a lot of time doing desensitization exercises with his legs. I made a big fuss when he was good ie if I picked up and put down a foot without drama then he got a treat in a bucket - I would never hand treat him.

Hand walking after box rest was a one off thing...even on ACP it was a near death experience! Once he was back on turnout I set to work with groundwork to gradually fitten him and help break down the scar tissue and this helped with his manners too.

It's hard if other people are handling him. I had a strict rule that no one else was to handle Rocco for their safety and so that he could be handled with consistency. I later found out that YO was doing rounds after 10pm and would pay and treat Rocco which, ahem, greatly displeased me.

I moved Roc and my two mares to a field and stables that I rented on an old farm and that was the making of him. It wasnt overnight but we did make progress quicker since there was no interference and he was in a routine.

I was still having to put topical cream on his injury and there was a lot of ACP use but the kicking in subsided and eventually stopped completely. The biting and lunging at people stopped too.

Alongside all of this his teeth were done (they were a mess- sharp, unlevel and had ulcers), physically he had a load of issues resolved with physio, massage and groundwork and his cribbing almost stopped completely with taking the cribbing collar he came with off, treating him as an ulcer horse, lots of turnout and fibre diet.

I guess what I'm.saying is try to look bigger picture. Rocco was always quirky but he ended up a happy boy who didnt kick or bite.

NEVER would I light up a horse or any part of its anatomy. To proudly speak of doing it is even worse than the act itself and that's saying something!!

 

[indie1282]

How long have you had him? Do you know if he kicked with his old owner?

You said that the girls were doing his leg straps up - Is he handled by other people? If so I would stop that right away.

If he was mine I would ALWAYS make sure he is tied up in the stable when I entered. I would also keep rugging simple - I.e remove leg straps so I didnt need to be at the back end.

I would do his water in his field before he was turned out so that I didnt need to be in the field with him. What is the problem with other people bringing in early? He's in his own paddock isn't he?

I certainly wouldn't long rein him and I agree its sensible to keep to the back out hacking.

If he was my horse and I liked him in every other way i would be tempted to turn him away in a herd for a few months. I wouldn't handle him at all apart from farrier etc.. and see if that breaks the cycle.

 

[AmyMay]

This horse is 25 and has been with me since he was 2-1/2. He absolutely knows what "do you want a whuppin'" means

I know the frame of mind he is in before he does. If I think he's going to be snarky, I already have the riding crop in a handy spot to grab. As soon as I would see that tail swish and the hoof lifting, that "offending leg" gets laced a good one with the riding crop.

What did you think I was doing? Lollol

"lighting up" is an old-time phrase. It means the horse needs some serious discipline due to lack of good manners.

Not to be confused with "lit up", which means the horse is generally a well marked spotted horse or Appaloosa. In this case, "lit up" adds a lot to the dollar value, regardless of how much "lighting up" the horse's poor manners might need

For the record, I am in the SE U.S. where the phrase "Bless your Heart" does not mean what you think it does, lollol. When it comes out "blessss yourrrrr hartttt", you've just been verbally slapped in the face

And it’s obviously worked for you...... 😏

 

[TheMule]

Has he had his eyes checked? It sounds like he's reacting to things moving in his peripheral vision?
I'm inclined to think there is a reason for his behaviour, you just haven't found it yet. If he needs to be managed on a livery hard then you're in quite a hard place if you can't find the reason and sort it out.

 

[risky business]

I don't think reprimanding him would work anyway if I'm honest.

When he does things it's just a lighting reaction, it's like he doesn't think first if that makes sense. It's not like he gets grumpy then kicks he literally just kicks.

I've had him over a year now.

I've removed all leg straps on the rugs that was the first thing I did when I found out. He has to be handled by my yard manager (it's just me and her who deal with him now) I work 12 hour shifts hes on assisted livery due to my work hours. I no longer ask for rug changes hes literally walked to his field and back by her.

Yes he's in his own field, if he thinks someone is coming in first it usually results in him charging up and down usually bucking and farting as he goes. Even this isnt consistent though sometimes he can be alright with it other times not so hard to even manage it. If I bring in and that horse goes out for exercise he then kicks out in his stable to go out again.

No I certainly will not long rein again, up until the kick never had an issue with it. I hindsight bad idea but I cant change that now.

I am in contact with his previous owner and she confirmed she had to 'watch him' as he could be 'silly'. However this wasn't mentioned when I bought him only after when I'd had issues.

I've had his eyes checked when he had all the lameness work ups, hes had the vet since for eyes when he got a dodgy fly bite a few months back. The vets were stumped if I'm honest and I had 2 separate ones out. We even checked for toxins and deficiency in his bloods but they all checked out?

 

[Wheresthehoofpick]

We were "gifted" a 27 year old that kicked. Would get any horse, dog, human into a corner and double barrel them. We had him PTS. First we did teeth, back, vet. Then we decided that ultimately he would hurt someone or even worse kill them. My children are small. There was no way he was going from us to someone else. Sometimes there may be an answer. Other times something appalling may happen while you try and work it out.

We now have three beautifully behaved, loved horses with super temperaments. That one horse was making our lives a misery.

 

[Bellaboo18]

It's not a large livery yard, its 10 horses all in all. They all live in an American style barn and have Individual turn out but can see one another.

They all in principle have the same routine we have turn out and bring in times. But as I said if someone wants to ride and he thinks they are coming in first it results in the behaviour. No matter how professional the yard horses should be able to be able to come in to be ridden without it being an issue surely?!

Individual turnout doesn't suit all horses, he'd probably be better with a mate.