Dealing with a kicker

[TPO]

I would just say dont trust previous owners!

According to Rocco's previous owner hed never put a foot wrong but then I found a thread in here about him accidentally (?) kicking the sister on the head and leaving her unconscious!

His behaviour wasnt new that he just taught himself in the 2hr trailer journey from their field to my yard. Several vets, trainer and experienced friends were also of that opinion.

I am a grade A mug and I still let previous owner visit, I think she came out 3x in total. When she and her mum got to his stable he came over to see who the people were and they both instinctively ducked!!

So yeah just work with the horse in front of you and dont believe previous owners concerning things like this!

 

[risky business]

Normally I'd agree horses get on better in herds.

The first 3 months I had him I kept him somewhere else whilst I moved house and he's been on this yard ever since was on group turnout and he was always on his own. The herd would be off somewhere and he'd just be pleasing himself. He has neighbour's now that he can see/touch just cant get in with and never shows interest in making friends if anything hes always pulling faces!

 

[Bellaboo18]

Normally I'd agree horses get on better in herds.

The first 3 months I had him I kept him somewhere else whilst I moved house and he's been on this yard ever since was on group turnout and he was always on his own. The herd would be off somewhere and he'd just be pleasing himself. He has neighbour's now that he can see/touch just cant get in with and never shows interest in making friends if anything hes always pulling faces!

Umm did he kick in this time? Just because he looks like he's on his own, he's choosing to be. Another horse may have been looking over him while he's sleeping. I bet he was happier.

 

[DabDab]

Tbh random lashing out like you describe is rare and basically impossible to try to tackle in isolation. He sounds like he's got a lot of deep rooted stuff going on (whatever type and combination of stuff that might be). And without you having the ability to overhaul his life and start to untangle the various layers of stuff going on, I think you're probably going to be on a hiding to nothing.

Some horses just aren't suitable candidates for an owner with a busy life who has to rely on livery yards and services, however hard that may be.

 

[Ceifer]

Umm did he kick in this time? Just because he looks like he's on his own, he's choosing to be. Another horse may have been looking over him while he's sleeping. I bet he was happier.

Playing devils advocate. If I were another livery on the yard, knowing that OP’s horse was a kicker I probably wouldn’t want my horse turned out with it. So OP isn’t much better off.

 

[risky business]

He kicked more or less right from the off as ceifer mentioned it was an issue when he kicked another horse square in the face. Others then rightly so didnt want there's in with him it was a bit of nightmare if I'm honest.


Alright so he may just not being able to cope with my life style, question is what do I do? I can't have him at home it just isn't something I can do and I highly doubt anyone with a private yard would be willing to just take him on and manage him even if I paid for such? How could I sell knowing what hes like?! I just don't know what to do.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Playing devils advocate. If I were another livery on the yard, knowing that OP’s horse was a kicker I probably wouldn’t want my horse turned out with it. So OP isn’t much better off.

I suppose I'm trying to find the course of the problem. Then the solution is easier.

 

[Bellaboo18]

He kicked more or less right from the off as ceifer mentioned it was an issue when he kicked another horse square in the face. Others then rightly so didnt want there's in with him it was a bit of nightmare if I'm honest.


Alright so he may just not being able to cope with my life style, question is what do I do? I can't have him at home it just isn't something I can do and I highly doubt anyone with a private yard would be willing to just take him on and manage him even if I paid for such? How could I sell knowing what hes like?! I just don't know what to do.

I completely understand the tricky position you're in, don't for one second think im judging you. I suppose I'm just trying to think what the problem is as I don't personally think horses kick for no reason.
I completely agree some horses are more suited to professional yards. The more tricky they are sometimes means the more talented they are!

 

[Ceifer]

He kicked more or less right from the off as ceifer mentioned it was an issue when he kicked another horse square in the face. Others then rightly so didnt want there's in with him it was a bit of nightmare if I'm honest.


Alright so he may just not being able to cope with my life style, question is what do I do? I can't have him at home it just isn't something I can do and I highly doubt anyone with a private yard would be willing to just take him on and manage him even if I paid for such? How could I sell knowing what hes like?! I just don't know what to do.

I think if you’ve done all the investigative work towards physical reasons.
You can’t manage him any other way due to work/ life. That’s not a criticism btw. I couldn’t manage a difficult horse due to my job either and I wouldn’t want to.
Then you either continue as you are, retire or PTS. it’s not fair on the horse or any prospective buyer to sell the horse.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Excess acid? Try something like acid ease?

 

[claret09]

I am so, so sorry you are having problems. horse's very rarely do things out of spite. they generally have a reason for their behaviour. we as humans just need to understand what the problem is. I know how difficult that can be to work out sometimes - but there is always something underlying that means that they react in an unpredictable way. I really hope that you can sort your horse's issues out

 

[risky business]

The only thing left my vet suggested was an MRI scan but told me that they doubted very much this would reveal anything that wouldnt have already cropped up as such.

I mean he's a beautiful horse and I was hoping to turn him into a low level event horse. Hes the most pretty thing and I really felt a good connection with him when I viewed him. It was like when he actually kicked me it changed things, I mean he kicked out but it never seemed like he went for me the other times and this time it was like he turned just to get me.. It was my stupid fault for being in the way but feels like its changed the dynamic.

 

[Bellaboo18]

The only thing left my vet suggested was an MRI scan but told me that they doubted very much this would reveal anything that wouldnt have already cropped up as such.

I mean he's a beautiful horse and I was hoping to turn him into a low level event horse. Hes the most pretty thing and I really felt a good connection with him when I viewed him. It was like when he actually kicked me it changed things, I mean he kicked out but it never seemed like he went for me the other times and this time it was like he turned just to get me.. It was my stupid fault for being in the way but feels like its changed the dynamic.

What about ulcers? Has he been scoped?

 

[risky business]

Yes he's been scoped and was clear which massively shocked me! I've always feed him on ulcer friendly diet being a TB.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Ok so what about hind gut ulcers which can't be seen on a scope?

 

[Ceifer]

The only thing left my vet suggested was an MRI scan but told me that they doubted very much this would reveal anything that wouldnt have already cropped up as such.

I mean he's a beautiful horse and I was hoping to turn him into a low level event horse. Hes the most pretty thing and I really felt a good connection with him when I viewed him. It was like when he actually kicked me it changed things, I mean he kicked out but it never seemed like he went for me the other times and this time it was like he turned just to get me.. It was my stupid fault for being in the way but feels like its changed the dynamic.

Is he insured? If so could you get the MRI don’t through that.

 

[risky business]

Ok so what about hind gut ulcers which can't be seen on a scope?

What would you suggest? I've looked into supplements but that seems like a minefield?

 

[windand rain]

Some horses are simply born that way I have owned my boy from 4 weeks of age I was given him as his breeder had been trying to cope with him since birth so had just turned him and mum out and left them. She wanted to sell mum my friend wanted to buy her so she took him home with her until he was old enough to wean he again was more or less turned out only handled for feet etc had no training or foal handling by the time he was old enough to wean he had tried to stove her head in several times. I brought him home and treated him exactly the same as the others he was in a group of horses he was fed groomed handled exactly as any baby should be with firm but fair treatment he was always a fighter he never ran away from anything it was his way or the highway get it wrong and he tried to kill you by coming at you teeth and feet. I learned very quickly to judge when to approach him he is a one person horse he either loves you r hates you he will not tolerate any strange behaviour from anyone. I should have shot him years ago and if I didnt micromanage him I still would He can never be sold or passed on he must be PTS, if he leaves here he could and probably would kill someone. He is only 12.1hh He is beautiful and I love the bones of him but he is a huge responsibility He is 14years old now how much longer he can stay around is questionable as he has now attacked and injured OH. Neither one of us wants to lose him and he is very happy because we know his limits and keep him accordingly he is also a fantastic companion as he is happy either with others or on his own.
So my guess is you have tp learn how much pressure you can put on your horse and know his limitations and work within them.

 

[TPO]

Also, and I know it's rare, but there could be something mental and/or a brain tumour going on?

I remember that palomino in the Buck film attacking the handler in the arena. It was a spoiled horse, possibly had been an orphan (I cant remember), who had never been trained No and did not like it one iota. The scene is in YouTube if anyone needs a reminder of how dangerous horses can be when it's been spoiled.

Another point is that what is a big deal for some might not be for others. Rocco absolutely terrified some on my first yard but there would probably have been equally as many more experienced people who wouldn't have blinked at his carry on. After I moved to my rented place I did put him back to a local livery a few months later to use the facilities and everyone there loved him (helped that he was pretty). With hindsight I would have done certain things differently but that's because I've got another 10yrs of horse shenanigans under my belt. Have you had a professional horse person out to see him and assess his behaviour? It may still be a training issue or something that a workaround could be reached.

I know a better rider wouldn't have had the same issues under saddle that I did. Proven by my trainer getting on and making him look like a proper schooled horse! Even my experienced instructor was initially worried to get on because that was still in the days that Roc wasnt 100% with his ground manners. So maybe another set of unbiased eyes on the situation might help?

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I am afraid that in your situation I would pts the horse. As you have previously said all tests have been done and unless he is a seriously talented competition horse then it is just not worth the risk.

If he is very talented i would place him in a professionals yard.

Please do not long rein him!

Horses are dangerous anyway and we all accept accidents will happen but we can minimise the risks and I would not tolerate or put up with this behaviour.

How would you feel if another livery, a member of staff or the farrier was seriously injured or even killed.

Sorry to be blunt.

^^^^ I am inclined to agree with this; he's already broken your bones and you cannot guarantee it won't happen again either to you or someone else who doesn't know what he does. You have exhausted all the possible investigative routes and are no wiser.

He is probably very talented, some of the top elite horses are horrendous on the ground (any top class professional groom will tell you!), and a professional yard where staff are used to dealing with quirky horses like this would be a possible solution. IF he's talented enough, and IF you can afford it!!

Another solution - and this is "outside the box" thinking here, might be to take off his shoes and turn him away for a few months; place him in a large herd where if he behaves like a tit he'll be nipped back into line by the herd. By "large herd" I mean a herd of at least ten other horses with a dominant mare in the herd. My old mare, bless her, would have been ideal for sorting out a horse like this - she'd basically back them into a corner and give them her opinion!! Perhaps a season of being a subservient herd member might sort him out, there's nothing like utilising the herd dynamic to sort out a problem as horses are very good at dealing with their own kind who need sorting out.

Otherwise, sadly, I feel that for everyone's safety including your own, you may have to make a tough choice with this horse.

 

[Mahoganybay]

^^^^ I am inclined to agree with this; he's already broken your bones and you cannot guarantee it won't happen again either to you or someone else who doesn't know what he does. You have exhausted all the possible investigative routes and are no wiser.

He is probably very talented, some of the top elite horses are horrendous on the ground (any top class professional groom will tell you!), and a professional yard where staff are used to dealing with quirky horses like this would be a possible solution. IF he's talented enough, and IF you can afford it!!

Another solution - and this is "outside the box" thinking here, might be to take off his shoes and turn him away for a few months; place him in a large herd where if he behaves like a tit he'll be nipped back into line by the herd. By "large herd" I mean a herd of at least ten other horses with a dominant mare in the herd. My old mare, bless her, would have been ideal for sorting out a horse like this - she'd basically back them into a corner and give them her opinion!! Perhaps a season of being a subservient herd member might sort him out, there's nothing like utilising the herd dynamic to sort out a problem as horses are very good at dealing with their own kind who need sorting out.

Otherwise, sadly, I feel that for everyone's safety including your own, you may have to make a tough choice with this horse.

Please, before you make a very tough decision, try this. You have nothing to lose and it may just be the making of your horse.

 

[indie1282]

^^^^
Another solution - and this is "outside the box" thinking here, might be to take off his shoes and turn him away for a few months; place him in a large herd where if he behaves like a tit he'll be nipped back into line by the herd. By "large herd" I mean a herd of at least ten other horses with a dominant mare in the herd. My old mare, bless her, would have been ideal for sorting out a horse like this - she'd basically back them into a corner and give them her opinion!! Perhaps a season of being a subservient herd member might sort him out, there's nothing like utilising the herd dynamic to sort out a problem as horses are very good at dealing with their own kind who need sorting out.

Otherwise, sadly, I feel that for everyone's safety including your own, you may have to make a tough choice with this horse.

I said this further up the thread. 3 to 6 months turned out in a stable herd could unlearn or break this behaviour.

Although I would always be aware of it potentially happening again, it is definitely worth a try.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of his behaviour you must be safe, hat, BP at all times, tie up to handle etc
I think turning out with a pal or away for a while to be a horse might do some good- I would not consider PTS before doing that.

 

[TPO]

Also I pulled hind shoes- no point arming a kicker! If I knew then what I know now I would have pulled them all and went bf. If turning away I'd definitely pull them all for the sakes of the other horses.

I have to say after kicking another horse in the head I wouldn't want him turned away with any of mine no matter how good it would be for him 😬

 

[risky business]

He's got good potential as a low level competition horse but wouldn't say he has a raw talent per say? I've very slowly had to nurture him into the role, he very easily loses confidence.

Where could I find such a situation that I could just turn him away for 6 months? I mean I don't care what may need trying, I've got a youngster I'm bringing on so I won't lose anything by turning him away. Just unsure where I would find this kind of set up, most places I know are very much mares and geldings separate.

Oh don't worry he's never had back shoes with me for that precise reason, think he'd of done more than break my ribs had he been shod at the back!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

However hard it is to not, don't take his behaviour personally and don't demonise him. As for turning away in a herd, it might be easier said than done where you are. The only other thing I can suggest is getting a proper certified behaviourist out, not some NHer, a behaviourist- hard with a horse that's seemingly unpredictable but they will want a very detailed history from you before seeing him.

 

[Otherwise]

I have to say after kicking another horse in the head I wouldn't want him turned away with any of mine no matter how good it would be for him 😬

Agree with this. Turnout injuries happen but no chance I'd want something with history of kicking in with mine, it's just an accident waiting to happen. I've had to pts one when he broke his leg in the field, really not keen to repeat that. It may turn out alright and be the making of him or he could kill something, I personally wouldn't want to take that risk. I know for me I don't have a suitable setup or the money for a pro yard so if he were mine I'd be looking at pts as the safest option for everyone.

 

[Ceifer]

[

Agree with this. Turnout injuries happen but no chance I'd want something with history of kicking in with mine, it's just an accident waiting to happen. I've had to pts one when he broke his leg in the field, really not keen to repeat that. It may turn out alright and be the making of him or he could kill something, I personally wouldn't want to take that risk. I know for me I don't have a suitable setup or the money for a pro yard so if he were mine I'd be looking at pts as the safest option for everyone.

im glad others have said this. I wouldn’t want to run anything like that in a herd.

 

[risky business]

I've made contact with a equine behaviourist this morning, just waiting to hear back!

I kind of left a rambling message of desperation. I'm not opposed to putting him to sleep even if it's for his and others safety however sad that may be for him.

Maybe I could get him rescoped too?

 

[TPO]

I tried to get Rocco scoped but he decided it wasnt a loading day. When rearing up and striking out wasnt getting him anywhere he threw himself on the ground and wouldn't get up. So the scoping did not happen.

I treated and fed him like an ulcer horse and that seemed to work. He was never girthy it was because he was an underweight cribber that I suspected them. He transpired to be a good doer once he was actually being fed but that's by the by.

Theres lots more available on the market these days and lots of threads in vet section about ulcers. Possibly rantcide (spelled wrong but hopefully that's a bit of a clue) and Succeed get good reviews and I had good results with feedmark supplement