Dealing with dangerous horses

[Winters100]

Hi All,
I was asked by a friend about this and I am really not quite sure how to advise her. (Oh and yes, it really is a friend, my 2 are very calm and easy).

So the situation is that a lady on our yard has one horse in work and another at grass in another part of the country. I know the horse she has here well and she is a good owner, takes a lot of time and trouble to see that he has a good life.

I did not know until recently that she also has one other. Basically the horse is dangerous to ride, and also cannot be handled safely. Last week I went to visit it with her and witnessed it approach someone who was catching other horses in the field (looking as if he wanted to come too) and then suddenly turn around and kick out. He also bites, and one has to be careful in the stable as if angered he will pin people against the wall. He is 16 years old.

The horse does seem to get on with her, and she can handle it a little (carefully), but she has a small child and is now pregnant again, so is understandably worried.

It would be impossible to find a regular livery yard here for the horse, so he is in a private stable where his box has direct access to the paddock and they just let him out to the field and if it is too cold for him to sleep out then his meal is placed inside and the door shut. If the horse has to be handled she goes, but to make things worse the owners of the place that he is in have started to indicate that they are not keen to keep him. If he is not there I really do not know where he can go.

Vets, specialists and trainers have not been able to help. Among the many vets that she has consulted is the one that I use, a very well known vet and a professor, and when I asked him about the horse he said that neither he nor his colleagues can find anything wrong, but that the horse was known among the local vets to be vicious and had been the subject of discussion between them because they felt that they did not know what else to look for. She has also tried 4 trainers but all gave up on him.

There is one trainer who has now volunteered to take him on and sell him, but this man is well known for incredibly harsh methods and for not caring where the horse goes. The current owner feels that he can be dangerous and does not want to pass the problem on.

Would you support putting an animal to sleep in this case? I am in 2 minds, but I think on balance yes, because if the horse cannot even be easily handled from the ground and has to be sedated for so many normal things (hoof trimming for example), then I don't see a way forward. Certainly I could not handle him.

The situation is complicated, because where we are it is legal to send your horse to slaughter in horrific conditions, but not legal for a vet to put a healthy horse to sleep. She won't send him off on the meat wagon (that actually is still a thing here and it is just heartbreaking how it is done). I have not offered to help as I need to think, but I have a very good relationship with a very well known vet, who I think might feel that this was reasonable and could manage things. But is this a terrible thing to do? When I saw the horse from a distance eating hay in the paddock I felt that it is, but another part of me says that the horse is dangerous and beyond help, and what will happen if he finally does cause a serious injury?

Thoughts?

 

[SadKen]

I don't think that is a healthy horse, certainly not mentally healthy which is just as important.

If he can no longer be kept by the current owner there is no way I would sell on. It's a recipe for misery on the part of the horse and the buyer. I would PTS without feeling guilty.

By the way the law there is an ass. Sorry!

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

At 16 the horse has had a good life. I cant think of anything else which could be done for the horse. The truly loving thing to do is to ensure there is no cruelty or unhappiness in his future and PTS is probably best for him.

But how do you ensure that is done humanely where you are, is going to be the challenge.

 

[JFTDWS]

I would suggest that a horse which behaves so aggressively is unlikely to be "healthy", and I'd certainly put him down before I'd pass him on.

 

[AmyMay]

It would be a one way trip to the kennels I’m afraid - regardless of its age.

 

[Littlebear]

When you say ‘healthy horse’ are there absolutely no previous or pre existing conditions at all?
Even hock arthritis or something like that would be helpful in enabling pts without any issue. I would be looking down that avenue first if I were her.
Failing that I would be sending it to the meat man.
Very hard one and easy for people like myself to say with no connection at all.

 

[AmyMay]

Sorry, just re-read the post, re the method of disposal.

Yes, I’d be speaking to your friendly vet about putting the horse down.

 

[fredflop]

Can you tell us which country your in?

 

[Winters100]

At 16 the horse has had a good life. I cant think of anything else which could be done for the horse. The truly loving thing to do is to ensure there is no cruelty or unhappiness in his future and PTS is probably best for him.

But how do you ensure that is done humanely where you are, is going to be the challenge.

Thank you. Yes, on balance I agree - I just do not see any other solution. For sure the horse won't go to slaughter - the owner would never allow that and I would never be involved in such a thing. I think that I can manage it for her. I know my vet well enough that he would not think it wrong if I explained how the horse is, and I am sure that we can just make the papers that the horse had a bad injury and was put to sleep to relieve suffering. Seeing him I actually do feel that he is suffering, because every small interaction is a stress for him somehow. My feeling is that it may well be medical, or even have started as medical and now a reaction to some remembered pain, but she has had some really good vets to see him and if they cannot find an answer then I suppose we will never know.

 

[Winters100]

When you say ‘healthy horse’ are there absolutely no previous or pre existing conditions at all?
Even hock arthritis or something like that would be helpful in enabling pts without any issue. I would be looking down that avenue first if I were her.
Failing that I would be sending it to the meat man.
Very hard one and easy for people like myself to say with no connection at all.

Yes, he has had really extensive work ups, including from a very famous orthopedic specialist who charges the earth but is famous for finding and sorting problems I simply have no one else to recommend to her.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I would pts

 

[Winters100]

Can you tell us which country your in?

Sure, we are in Poland

 

[HeyMich]

Please, please, do not allow this horse to be sold on.

If the current set-up is no longer available, then, yes, PTS is the only option.

 

[Goldenstar]

Mmmmmm my aggressive horse had bowel tumours .
I think dealt with discretion the vet could see a clearly uncomfortable horse that had colic .

 

[Orangehorse]

He could have a brain tumour or any other hidden problem and I think it is perfectly reasonable to have him PTS. The owner has tried everything, vets and trainers so it is not as though she has given up on him. I wouldn't want to send him to this so called trainer, because the end result is going to be horrible for the horse and the very high liklihood that he will end up seriously hurting a human.

 

[Winters100]

Thank you all for your replies. This was my gut feeling, but I needed to really think about it before getting involved. My vet is coming tomorrow so I will have a quiet word. Hopefully he will help, I think he will because he is a real horse lover (if mine are having any treatment visits just to check them without making any charge), and I he would not like the idea of the horse suffering.

 

[Winters100]

Please, please, do not allow this horse to be sold on.

If the current set-up is no longer available, then, yes, PTS is the only option.

I totally agree. Of course if she wanted to I probably could not stop it, but the owner is a very nice lady who also told me that she will in no circumstances sell him on even as a companion horse, and of course this is right. If only horses could speak and tell us exactly what is going on, then maybe we could help him.

 

[Rowreach]

It sounds from your conversation with your vet that he and his colleagues already know there is something wrong with the horse even if they don’t know what. I wouldn’t hesitate to puts, the horse is clearly not experiencing a good quality of life at the moment.

 

[Shilasdair]

I've worked with horses for decades and can count the number of 'vicious' horses I've known on one hand.
They do exist, however, and sometimes no real reason can be found.
I'd agree that your friend needs to PTS if she can no longer keep him (or find a livery willing to). As people have mentioned above, he may have hidden problems - aggressive behaviour is often indicative of pain.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I was fully intending to pts a 12 yr old TBxWelsh mare because she was dangerous to handle. She had been retired years before, as she was dangerous to ride. As it happened we then found out that her feed was causing the problems (looking back, I can't understand how it took us so long to join the dots but we only found out by accident) and we kept her for another 12 years, So yes, I would pts, all avenues seem to have been explored and no answer has been forthcoming. The owner must put the safety of herself and her children first and there are far worse fates than pts for a challenging horse.

 

[Winters100]

I've worked with horses for decades and can count the number of 'vicious' horses I've known on one hand.
They do exist, however, and sometimes no real reason can be found.
I'd agree that your friend needs to PTS if she can no longer keep him (or find a livery willing to). As people have mentioned above, he may have hidden problems - aggressive behaviour is often indicative of pain.

I totally agree, as does the owner. I don't think for a moment that this is just an 'evil' horse - something must have caused him huge pain - an maybe still is - but if so many vets cannot find it then I just don't know what can be done.

I think the things that worry me are:

1. is he still feeling pain? Because even if it cannot be found maybe he is suffering, and this behaviour of wanting to lash out is not normal.
2. If she leaves it and waits is it just delaying a crisis, because she is pregnant, so what happens when she is further along (given that no one else agrees to handle the horse, and sorry but I just cannot offer to try).
3. If they give her notice to leave the current place how will she manage, because we don't know if a vet will agree to help, maybe it will take longer than I think to arrange, so then what?

Such a difficult situation and so sad for her and the horse.

 

[Winters100]

I was fully intending to pts a 12 yr old TBxWelsh mare because she was dangerous to handle. She had been retired years before, as she was dangerous to ride. As it happened we then found out that her feed was causing the problems (looking back, I can't understand how it took us so long to join the dots but we only found out by accident) and we kept her for another 12 years, So yes, I would pts, all avenues seem to have been explored and no answer has been forthcoming. The owner must put the safety of herself and her children first and there are far worse fates than pts for a challenging horse.

But please tell me - what was the food that caused problems. I am not sure if this has been looked at. I will ask..

 

[ycbm]

I have one thay is loopy on alfalfa so he deliberately smashed a hole in my hat, and very recently discovered that my TB is made ill to the point of causing weight loss and behaviour changes, by soya.

I would strip the horse back to forage only and PTS if no change.

.

 

[Winters100]

I have one thay is loopy on alfalfa so he deliberately smashed a hole in my hat, and very recently discovered that my TB is made ill to the point of causing weight loss and behaviour changes, by soya.

I would strip the horse back to forage only and PTS if no change.

.

I just messaged her. He is currently a bit too fat so for last 2 months only on hay and whatever grass he can find (not much), plus a handful of chopped carrots if it is cold and they need to get him into the box for the night (which they have not needed to in the last weeks). I was so hoping that it could have been something simple like a food thing, but I don't think so.

 

[ycbm]

It's often carrots, bizarrely. PaS had one of those.

They also had one which was bad if it didn't have aloe vera, and that's dead cheap on ebay at 20ml a day, so worth a try maybe.

It depends how long she wants to carry on trying for. I think I would probably PTS and there's no way I would sell.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

In a case like this I would PTS without hesitation.

The horse is 16; and the old proverb about "teaching old dogs new tricks" could equally well apply here.

No way would I let this horse go to anyone who used severe methods of training; neither would I allow it to pass into anyone else's hands e.g. loan or auction.

To me, the choice is a simple one. And TBH best done as soon as possible. I know of someone else who has had to do exactly this recently with a pony she bought for a kid which had a nasty streak in it which couldn't be sorted, and she had it PTS coz she wouldn't pass the problem on to someone else.

 

[Winters100]

It's often carrots, bizarrely. PaS had one of those.

They also had one which was bad if it didn't have aloe vera, and that's dead cheap on ebay at 20ml a day, so worth a try maybe.

It depends how long she wants to carry on trying for. I think I would probably PTS and there's no way I would sell.

Well these are simple things to try, so for sure worth a shot! Thank you!

 

[splashgirl45]

would it be worth getting some bute from your vet and put him on it for a week or so to see if there is any difference, that way you could maybe rule out a pain issue... i am also in the PTS camp if all else had failed. such a shame for both the horse and his owner..

 

[Winters100]

would it be worth getting some bute from your vet and put him on it for a week or so to see if there is any difference, that way you could maybe rule out a pain issue... i am also in the PTS camp if all else had failed. such a shame for both the horse and his owner..

Already tried on painkillers. He also had several weeks staying at the University vet clinic to try to find something, they thought that it was maybe something in his back, but he had CT which showed nothing, and has also been interpreted by a clinic in Germany to see if they could shed any light, but they could not. No result (other than that the students were barred from going near him). The last advice from the vets was that none of them think that he is actually in pain, but that there has to be something to cause this behaviour, especially that it is so random - one minute calmly standing in the box and the next trying to pin someone against the wall. Really strange.

 

[Shilasdair]

Already tried on painkillers. He also had several weeks staying at the University vet clinic to try to find something, they thought that it was maybe something in his back, but he had CT which showed nothing, and has also been interpreted by a clinic in Germany to see if they could shed any light, but they could not. No result (other than that the students were barred from going near him). The last advice from the vets was that none of them think that he is actually in pain, but that there has to be something to cause this behaviour, especially that it is so random - one minute calmly standing in the bok and the next trying to pin someone against the wall. Really strange.

I think your friend is an exemplary owner - and should not feel the slightest twinge of guilt if she can't keep him any longer. If only everyone took so much care of their horses, difficult or otherwise.