Dear wise and knowledgeable members of the CR...

Bri

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I thought a bit of flattery would make you want to read more.. ;)

I'm in desperate need of some help please, it's going to be a bit of a long one I'm afraid, but please bare with me and I will be eternally grateful!

I'm having a whole host of problems with my 4 year old and have come to a bit of a dead end as far as my knowledge extends.

Bit of background - I broke him myself last summer, (I did 2 others before him, so am not a complete numpty before anyone suggests that as a reason!!) he was hacked lightly until the winter, then turned away and brought back into work in Feb. He was doing very well - lots of hacking and schooling once a week which he excelled himself in. However he then started losing weight and was diagnosed with some mystery virus, which has taken him a while to get over and he did come back from it a bit uncoordinated and all over the place which the vet said was to be expected.

The problems have all come about as of the last few days. I had a lesson about 10 days ago, where the trainer wanted to work on walk to canter transitions - I wasn't overly convinced it was the right thing for him to be doing but stupidly bowed down to the more knowledgeable instructor and got on with it. Pony picked up the idea very quickly, was very good at them, lesson ended. All seemed fine. He had a week off due to my exams, and then I hacked him a few days ago where I noticed that in the trot he was a bit hollow and kept pre-empting the canter transition. I took him in the school yesterday and it had all gone to pot completely. He jogs through the walk, and when asked to trot, head comes up, he hollows his back and tries to canter. At the same time he was poking his nose to the outside and swinging his quarters in and whenever I tried to correct him up came the head, very fussy in his mouth and hollow back again. I went back to basics getting him to walk every time he jogged and then asking for a trot, bringing him back to walk and so on and on and on and on. Cue an hour later we finally managed walk and trot on a very loose rein. Tonight he was fine on a loose rein but as soon as I tried to take up smallest contact, quarters came in, head up and he tried to run away.

Right, so I can hear you all saying, get a good instructor/professional in to ride him. Which believe me I would love to do. However the guy I was having lessons with also runs the yard and would take it very personally if I got someone else in, and I really dont want to upset him as would make my life very difficult!

Just to pre-empt the usual responses - his teeth were done 2 months ago, saddle fitted about the same time. Back seems fine. I'm thinking perhaps he just felt overfaced by the walk/canter transitions and has lost confidence, rather than a pain thing but feel free to correct me if you think otherwise. He is ridden in a NS starter bit and is a very sensitive little soul anyway with regards to aids. I had to take his flash off a while ago as it was making him really tense and unhappy - so now I have problems with him sticking his tongue out the side of his mouth instead. Would playing around with different bits/nosebands help?

If anyone has got to the end of this epic amount of drivel and feels like they might be able to give me some words of wisdom/ a slap in the face/tell me to give up the horse before I ruin it forever (delete as appropriate) please do!
 

spacefaer

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Hmmm, where to start?

Firstly, any instructor who thinks that walk/canter transitions are a good thing with a young and weak 4 yr old is .... umm... misguided, shall we say. I can understand that your YO might throw his toys out of the pram if you change instructors, but unless he's going to back off the horse then I would strongly suggest that you should find someone more sympathetic

Sounds like your horse is confused and anticipating - and possibly may be a little sore from the unaccustomed work - like us going to the gym for a heavy workout having only ever walked round Tescos.

I would keep up the hacking and keep the whole thing quite chilled and relaxed for a bit, then maybe re-start some schoolwork with some light lunging, so that he settles back into transitions without the confusion of rider aids (I'm assuming he's good on the voice aids on the lunge??)

4 yr olds don't want to spend too much time in the school - they can get mentally sour and physically, it's quite stressful on young joints.... I never do more than once or twice in the arena a week and would also plan a couple of weeks to a month holiday during the summer (depending on the individual horse) The ground is hard, the weather hot and they all benefit from a bit of a break, physically and mentally, to assess what they've learnt :)

trust your instincts - you know your horse better than anyone :)
 

Bri

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Thanks for the reply.

I know exactly what you mean, its difficult because he is infinitely more knowledgeable then me by virtue of being around horses for the past 50 years, and so if I question him he can be very off. He is a great instructor, I just think his approach isn't right for this particular horse, but don't know how to tell him that without sounding like I think I'm better then him?

He is definitely anticipating the canter, he is quite a forward thinking horse as it is, and the walk/canter transitions seem to have just blown his mind a bit.

He is great to lunge but recently has struggled to get the right leg on the right canter. He is much much stronger through his left side and finds bending tricky to the right and it now seems as if he just finds cantering on the left leg easier - even though initially he was fine.

I will work on it out hacking and see how it goes. I'm just worried that I have created a problem now that is going to stay with him for life and feel as if I should be trying to resolve it :(

He has a fairly easy time of it as I've been busy with final year of uni. He's also got a 3 month holiday coming up at the end of summer as I'm going away. I was hoping to get him out and about and do a few little shows with him - but that has now gone out the window completely. Just frustrating as prior to this he was straightforward and would walk, trot and canter nicely on both reins in a fairly consistent outline. Yet now it seems as if he has a whole host of issues.
 

galaxy

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I would start with having his back checked. I know you think it is fine. But I would do it anyway. Hollowing, running away is quite classic back pain symptoms. when was the last time his back was actually checked?

Then just go back to walking and keeping it all calm/relaxed. Then build up a couple steps of trot etc.
 

Bri

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Thanks galaxy23 - I did consider it being a pain related thing, but because the behaviour coincided with the change in his work I assumed it was more likely to be that. He has had a sore back before though and made it very obvious - dramatically flinching when brushed - he has been checked since then by vet and was fine, and there are no signs of that now.

Would it be worth getting a physio to have a look?
 

Fiona

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If your horse physio is easy to get hold of then it wouldn't do any harm to get his back checked just to rule out pain. However I think what I would do would be to hack for a fortnight (maybe incorporating some transitions etc), and then try the school again. The poor little chap has just taken the walk/canter business to heart I think.Best of luck.

Fiona
 

paisley

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You probably already know the answer, he's young, a bit weak physically and got himself in a bit of a fluster! Do the physical checks, then gentle hacking and fun stuff. I would be very inclined to do limited lunging more than hacking/schooling untik he settles in his mouth again, loose side reins, poles on the floor , lots of long reining until he'e the happy little camper you started with,. Two lunge reins helps with swinging quarters as well, if you want to lunge on a circle.
 

Bri

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Thanks for all the suggestions. I will get hold of the physio tomorrow and see if she can fit him in at some point, although it's unlikely to be anytime soon :rolleyes:

In the meantime will stick to lunging and having the odd plod around just to try and get him to relax again. Thanks for all the advice guys.

One more question - what do you think about the bit? Is it worth playing around with it to see if he is any happier in his mouth?
 

spacefaer

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I wouldn't change anything else! I would wait until you've got him settled and working nicely again before you to have a play with his bit

Sticking his tongue out is probably a whole separate issue :)
 

flyingfeet

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One more question - what do you think about the bit? Is it worth playing around with it to see if he is any happier in his mouth?

You said you have a NS starter which is very shaped like this:
9008small.jpg


This is one of the few bits that would stop the tongue sticking out as a response to tongue pressure.

Therefore I would look at how it sits in the mouth and check that you haven't got too many wrinkles and have it set too high in the mouth.
 

Festive_Felicitations

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Don't worry about messing him up for life, I've broken in a few youngsters and at some point I've cxxked something up and thoroughly confused them.
And bless there little hearts they have all forgiven me/ gotten over it (though 1 did dump me twice before he decided I was forgiven!) :)

As other have said take it easy for a week or 2 and then try again.
 

Alibear

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Defintiley give him an easy time for a while and get the physio to check.
Sounds like he's tweaked soemthing doing the walk/canter transitions because he's too young/weak for them.
 

franki

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Poor boy, sounds a bit confused and maybe a bit sore. Some great advice here.

I wouldn't stress too much about, but echo the concern about the instructor.

When he's walking try to slow the walk right down until it's a very clear 4 time walk, this should help unwind his mind and hopefully he'll give you a big sigh when he gets into a clear 4 time rhythm. For now it doesn't matter how slow he is but just that he keeps a 4 time rhythm. Keep the same ethos in trot, for now it doesn't matter how slow the trot is, so long as it's 2 time and not just a jog. When he's more settled in both you can add in more pace.

The other thing I would say is don't be tempted to take your leg off when he jogs, in fact wrap your leg around him and remember to use it in your half halt.

Good luck
 

diggerbez

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aw i wouldn't worry too much about this TBH. yes get his back checked, can't possibly do any harm, but its probably just a case that he's got a bit confused and you need to take a step or two backwards...my youngster (who is 5 but wasn't broken til he was 4) is normally a saint to ride in the school- you would think he was an 8 year old he's so balanced etc, but periodically he goes through what i call 'devil child' phases where he just won't trot, he just pisses off into canter all the time (and not a nice canter, a hollow one :eek:) and he's horrid to ride. what i tend to do with him is just hack for a week or two with quite a bit of cantering as its usually a sign with mine that he's overexcited about stuff...then when i go back in the school he's normally back to normal but if he's still a bit wired i just work on lots of transitions and moving sidewards and stuff- in walk if necessary... it might also be worth trying a drop noseband with him? i know he didn't like the flash but a drop is much nicer for them :) good luck :)
 

Bri

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Thanks for all the great suggestions. I worked him in the field today, just in walk and trot encouraging him to stretch down and relax and it seemed to do the trick. Back to his old self - although I'm dreading re-introducing the canter!

Cotswold SJ - thank you for your suggestion - it never crossed my mind that it may have been too high. I dropped it down a hole today and he was so much softer and more accepting through his mouth. So again thank you! :eek:
 

Bri

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Diggerbez - good to know it's not just mine who has difficult moments! My last youngster was an absolute saint bless her so I'd forgotten that I should be expecting this sort of thing!

We struggled with his canter before this little episode, he just finds it very difficult to get the right leg. And so I'll bring him back to trot and he just gets tense and excited and wants to go go go! And typically the more wound up he gets, the less able he is to engage brain and realise what he's being asked. I've tried using poles and asking for the transition over that, but he still gets the wrong leg or just runs into a faster trot! Oh the joys of having a baby :rolleyes:

Think dropping the bit has done the trick actually, but will consider using a drop in the future if it comes to it! Thanks :)
 

Daisychain

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Don't panic at all about messing your horse up, you have allready itentified the problem, and what caused it, so your half way there!

It really is such a learning curve with babies, i have been regularly breaking horses, usually for my own use or to sell on or whatever for 20 odd years. One thing i have come to the conclusion with is whenever i look back and had problems, often very like the one you have now, i have always worked through it in the end and touch wood, they have all been ok!

It sounds like your working on the right track again, personally i think it was a bad move to introduce walk to canter at this stage, far better to get the horse moving freely forward, accepting a steady contact, this can be tricky but you just have to keep your hand there, almost think of your hands as side reins, that they have to work into and accept. Keeping the leg on so they learn to be secure by its presence. If your horse starts to rush off, just come back to walk and start again. One thing i have definately learned over the years is you cannot train a tense horse. Masses of transitions, walk, trot and halt, and i wouldnt bother with the canter untill all the other 3 feel better.

Good luck, and above all trust your instincts. Your own feel is usually far more effective, you just need lots of excercises to practice, give him something to think about all the time.
 

flirtygerty

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Hi,
Just a thought on your instructor, just because he has been around horses for 50 years, it does'nt nessessarily means he's good, in those days bullying horses was the norm, you know your horse so listen to your own instinct, find some diplomatic way of ditching the instuctor, could you not find a training establishment close to you and take your young un there
 

Bri

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We've just sold our box so don't have transport at the moment, otherwise I would do. It's just tricky because he's been really helpful with previous horses I've had, and he's a good friend of the family so it all gets a bit political! Think I've upset him already because I turned down his suggestions (mostly all gadget related). Horse is just a very sensitive little chap bless him - and you're right, he wont respond well to being bullied!
 
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