Debate, is an ISH a warmblood? And when does a type become a breed?

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competitiondiva

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With all the threads recently about ISH's I thought I'd see what everyones opinions were on the ISH and warmbloods in general. It seems that the ISH has now become an 'irish warmblood' as any stallion graded to their studbook, can sire ISH registered horses similar to that of any european studbook.

If you look at any studbook there will be mixtures of tb, oldenburg, kwpn, trakhener, etc etc in the studbooks. But if the offspring have say hanoverian papers, is that foal a hanoverian by breed or type?? If you call them a breed then surely the ISH has become a breed??
 
Well I'm surprised this thread has fallen on deaf ears (so to speak) after all the posts I've read on other threads, thought this might be fun to debate!!! And I really did wonder what people's thoughts were on whether a warmblood say hanoverian or oldenburg etc is a breed, and if so why an ISH isn't considered one???
 
A warm blood is a hot blooded horse (Arab, Barb, or thoroughbred) crossed with a cold blood, (Draught horse) . So Irish draught crossed with a thoroughbred would be a warmblood.
Argument might start when you look at the origin of a thoroughbred. Said to have lines back to the Godolphin arabian, Darley arabian ... these horse were crossed with native breeds, so we would need to know what kind of horses these were to assess how hot blooded a Thoroughbred is.
 
doonrocket said:
A warm blood is a hot blooded horse (Arab, Barb, or thoroughbred) crossed with a cold blood, (Draught horse) . So Irish draught crossed with a thoroughbred would be a warmblood.
Argument might start when you look at the origin of a thoroughbred. Said to have lines back to the Godolphin arabian, Darley arabian ... these horse were crossed with native breeds, so we would need to know what kind of horses these were to assess how hot blooded a Thoroughbred is.
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ditto this, what I've always thought too!
So in theory then my arab x tb x hanovarian is very much a warmblood in the true sense of the word!!

I can remember a few years ago breeds like hanovarians were a lot heavier than they are now, so the obvious thing to get a competition horse is to cross them with a TB.
 
Echo what doonrocket has said, the ISH has always been a 'warmblood', just not a *warmblood* like the european warmbloods that have their own registry.
Because of geograpical location, and the native breeds they were bred from - they have always been a very different animal to that of the european warmblood.

Ireland now has a warmblood studbook -yes, but I highly doubt you will see any true Irish bred ISH's entered into it, it was created to allow for the ISH's bred to or originating from foreign bloodlines, which previously may have gone into the general ISH studbook.

Its supposed to be a measure to regain our place in international competition (SJ), I'll keep my personal thoughts on it quiet ;)

I read on a thread the other day that apparently there is a huge demand now for ISH with warmblood breeding, I personally have yet to see it. Not among leisure riders or amateur competitors anyway, and sale prices were no better then that of true Irish stock.
 
Mocha said:
I read on a thread the other day that apparently there is a huge demand now for ISH with warmblood breeding, I personally have yet to see it. Not among leisure riders or amateur competitors anyway, and sale prices were no better then that of true Irish stock.
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Where did you see that? I have never heard that - always completely the opposite!

and sorry I missed this earlier..I am interested to see what defination can be offered as to then a "type" is recognised as a "breed".

I have very little idea about any sort of warmblood breeding - much more interested in the Irish side but there an awful lot of people far better invovled than me - so sorry if I am asking a stupid question - just how long has the KWPN been going as a "type"?

and then, if certain breeds are allowed be included as registered KWPN - are there any restrictions? and for ISH - same question. There was a really good response on the original thread explaining the difference between the green and blue passport but I wonder if there any breeds which are precluded? say, a shetland?
 
Luci07 said:
Where did you see that? I have never heard that - always completely the opposite!

and sorry I missed this earlier..I am interested to see what defination can be offered as to then a "type" is recognised as a "breed".

I have very little idea about any sort of warmblood breeding - much more interested in the Irish side but there an awful lot of people far better invovled than me - so sorry if I am asking a stupid question - just how long has the KWPN been going as a "type"?

and then, if certain breeds are allowed be included as registered KWPN - are there any restrictions? and for ISH - same question. There was a really good response on the original thread explaining the difference between the green and blue passport but I wonder if there any breeds which are precluded? say, a shetland?
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Thats a lot of questions!

I saw it here, written by a member and I know - news to me!!

Thats a lot of questions, you'd be best read the requirements on the different breed registry pages.

Heres a very over-simplified short answer.

The difference with KWPN and the IHB (or HSI as it is now!) register, is that their horses get papered based on grading results, not automatically as can happen here. Theres a number of breeds involved in the type, and no restrictions, it could have a bit of shetland in it, once it has a recognised parent (to be eligible for grading) and once it passes a grading, its can be registered as KWPN. Doesn't matter where it was born either.

The green book / blue book thing is simple... green book = approved documented parentage. Blue book, documented parentage, but not approved, white book = undocumented (might have one unapproved parent listed)

RID's have a sort of performance/conformation/vet grading to gain approval (tis nothing like the european warmbloods though) ISH's gain approval and entry into the studbook based on their progeny, or if you breed an animal from one of these approved horses.

There's very little restrictions on the ISH register either, it has to have a certain amount of draught, but if for example you bred a papered irish connemara/TB x appaloosa mare to an RID (approved) you could still be eligible for a green book ;)
 
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Competition Diva - a type becomes a definite breed when the studbook is "closed". If you take the Continental warmbloods, for example, most of them are entered into the Studbook according to their individual suitability - often horses of another "breed" are crossed to introduce new blood. For example, thoroughbred blood may be introduced to make the breed finer and lighter. Once the studbook is closed, only horses bred from those in the studbook can themselves be registered. Many of the warmblood types/breeds have open studbooks but, for example, the Trakehner has a closed studbook and is therefore a definite breed as we think of it.
 
Thankyou very much for that camilla, so in reality an oldenburg, hanoverians, and any others like that are NOT breeds! Funny because when I was a kid and had all the horse books under the sun (as any horsey kid does!!) I could name any of the 'Breed' books that quoted them as breeds!!! And people do refer to them as a 'breed'.
 
Strictly speaking, that's true. Many of what we consider to be breeds are, in reality, "types" - however, it is likely that, in the future, many of these will close their stud books and they will become breeds in the true sense.

Bear in mind that many of what we now call breeds started off in this way. For example, the Thoroughbred was descended from three Arabian stallions, but many different mares - it was modified over time until it became the breed we know today, with its own stud book.
 
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