Deco is in foal but....

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tigers_eye

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... the embryo is very small and the vets and stud think she may re-absorb within the next few days, so she will be scanned Monday again to see if it's still there. Not holding out my hopes, as am surprised she even took this late on. Fingers crossed for her please
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was she scanned post insemination? Sometimes if a mare is inseminated and the mare does not ovulate for a few days they can scan quite small.. fingers crossed she holds!
 
Right, shoot me down if I get this wrong, as breeding is certainly not my field of expertise! She was PG'd (I think, the one that brings them into season), then went off to vets and was scanned several times a day as we used frozen. She ovulated on the Sunday night (typical), and was inseminated first thing Monday morning (16 days ago). They had a look (not sure if this would be manual or scan) the next day to check for any fluid and whatever else they were looking for, and then she was sent home. Does that sound about right and answer your question?!
 
yup spot on, if they used frozen they will most likely have inseminated post ovulation, so at 16 days you would be hoping to have a 16 day sized pregnancy, but mother nature can play tricks and it can work both ways, we had one mare scanning at 19 days in size at 15 days and we have had two scanned at 15 days showing 12 day sized pregnancies all with frozen semen, fingers and toes tightly crossed for you......
 
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She ovulated on the Sunday night (typical), and was inseminated first thing Monday morning (16 days ago)

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Post-ovulation inseminations have a higher embryonic loss rate than pre-ovulation inseminations, so embryonic loss at this stage should be considered. Also, damage to the sperms' genetic material occurs during the freezing and thaw, and can produce embryos which are genetically flawed, and will be lost.

A small embryo in these circumstances would suggest a possible absorption in the next few days. Have you had her progesterone levels checked, just out of interest?

However, it's impossible to tell, and like Opie says - 16 day embryos can be all sorts of sizes - not always what you might expect. Fingers crossed and let us know how it goes.
 
Post-ovulation inseminations have a higher embryonic loss rate

AP would love to hear more, was on the understanding that generally frozen semen is always aimed at post ovulation, had missed the comment that the mare was inseminated much later than just an hour or so, which does decrease the chances, but are you saying that pre-ovulation is therefore better when using frozen semen as it would be with fresh chilled but also within a time frame? Obviously with hormone treatments this is much more readibly acheivable so are you practicing pre-ovulation as opposed to post ovulation with frozen semen as a rule? and are you finding higher pregnancy rates when doing so? TIA
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There's a fantastic paper by Paul Loomis and Ed Squires (two of the greatest living equine repro researchers) about conception rates with frozen semen, and different insemination strategies. And it ties in very nicely with other papers showing higher embryonic loss rates in post-ovulation inseminations.

It seems that once the ovum is released, it begins to lose its viability. The degredation may start within minutes after ovulation (but no-one knows when exactly, and I'm sure it varies from mare to mare). This means that really, sperm cells must be present in the oviduct at the time of ovulation. This means AI into the uterine body ~6 hours before ovulation, or deep uterine insemination 1-6 hours before ovulation with frozen semen.

It Squires & Loomis' paper, they have an excellent set of results... briefly; using AI with frozen-thawed semen:
AI up to 6 hours post ovulation: 47.3% conception rate
AI up to 24 hours before ovulation: 58.3% conception rate
AI up to 12 hours before ovulation: 72.7% conception rate
AI up to 12 hours before, and 2nd AI up to 6 hours after ovulation: 80% conception rate.

Now, looking at their methods and the quality of the study, I'd say those results speak for themselves.

The last method was achieved using hCG injection, and inseminating at 36 and 42 hours post injection; of course, this timing should be adjusted according to information gained from ultrasound scans. Using this method, on a relatively small sample, we have had results that mirror (and currently exceed) the rates I've quoted above.
 
wow, so the reality that semen is only valid for six hours post thaw and once inseminated is now dispelled? is that because freezing semen techniques have improved so drastically?
 
I think that it is probably due to improved freezing extenders and methods, as well as improved control of the mare's cycle; and/or that insemination techniques and practices have improved, and semen was always viable for more than 6 hours
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Use of frozen semen really needn't be so daunting afterall
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Interesting but i am confused even more now (sorry i am blonde lol) you saying that post ovulation frozen is less likely to get the mare to concieve, but if she does take why is she at a higher risk of then losing it???? Thats the bit i dont understand, why if she has taken the fact it was after ovulation and with frozen make her a higher risk that it may be gone by 16 days?? Sorry
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Freezing semen damages the sperm cells. It makes them more fragile and can destroy parts of the genetic material. This means that when using frozen semen, the chance of conception is lower because of the increased fragility. The chance of early embryonic loss is also greater because of the increased likelyhood of the embryo being a "mutant".

Inseminating after ovulation is another thing which can increase the incidence of early embryonic loss.

So, the best thing you can do with frozen semen is inseminate close to, but before ovulation as this means that the embryo is likely to be more viable.

So, because, in this particular case, frozen semen was used AND it was inseminated after ovulation (some time after, by the sounds of it), so the chance of embryonic loss is MUCH higher than if the mare had been inseminated before the ovulation.

Does that help?
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yes that does help thankyou
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i couldnt work out why if a mare is scanned in foal at around 14-17 days and she is in foal then surely if she loses after that or it dosnt seem to be progressing in the right way it wasnt to supposed be for many reasons (just like seems to have happened this year with lots of mares covered with chilled and natural) therefore i couldnt see why frozen was an even higher risk even once the mare was in foal..hmm does that make sense..i know what i mean but thankyou for explaining that to me
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... the embryo is very small and the vets and stud think she may re-absorb within the next few days, so she will be scanned Monday again to see if it's still there. Not holding out my hopes, as am surprised she even took this late on. Fingers crossed for her please
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Sorry i jumped in on your post without saying a word to you
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I really hope she stays in foal for you, i had a mare who had twins and both looked small for her ovulation dates, one of the twins dissapeared before we started to pinch and the other is still very much there so all could work out for you (((hug)))
 
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