Definition of cruelty?

[HarlequinSeren]

Following on from threads today that caused a bit of an outcry. As some people seemed to disregard what was happening on the thread saying that it wasn't cruelty as far worse things happen regularly etc, I just wondered what everyone on here's views are on what cruelty actually is?

Personally I think that anything that causes a horse (or any animal or human for that matter) pain, distress, discomfort etc that is not beneficial or avoidable (eg some veterinary treatments may cause some mild pain, but the benefits outweigh the pain and are done "for the good of the animal"). To me cruelty includes both extreme neglect and abuse cases as well as more "minor" things such as leaving a horse in overnight with no food or water. It does not have to be on the higher end of the scale to need action taken against it.
HS x

 

[Oberon]

I often ponder this.

I have been considered cruel for turning my horses out without rugs on (one hates rugs and one just refuses to wear turnout rugs - so he has to stay in during the worst of the weather).

Yet I look upon those people's horses in the stable 24/7 with combo rugs on all winter and fly rugs on all summer - and feel pity for them. They never get to roll in the mud.

It's all relative I suppose.

 

[HarlequinSeren]

That's interesting Oberon, I completely forgot to think about that side of things. What is fine for one is cruel for another as one is happy and the other clearly isn't. Cruelty isn't a blanket word and is difficult to define.
HS x

 

[Tonty Tont]

I see cruelty as anything that causes an animal to suffer - mentally or physically.

Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, such as veterinary treatment, but that is just what I believe.

 

[wattamus]

I personally define cruelty as causing a being pain and suffering be it mental or physical when it is avoidable an there is no reason behind it. i say this because my horse recently had an operation that was very traumatic and painful for her but it meant that she wouldn't have to be put down and could (fingers crossed) have a new lease of life.
But i am a bit of a soppy bugger and think that owning a horse and never spending time with it and never giving it the love and attention that it gives to you as cruel- not in a WHW way but mentally cruel. but as i said im quite a soppy bugger and love all my animals to pieces

 

[FionaM12]

The usual term is "causing unnecessary suffering to an animal" I believe. But after that it's open to interpretation. We can't always tell how much an animal is suffering.

Sometimes it's just obvious though.

 

[FionaM12]

But i am a bit of a soppy bugger and think that owning a horse and never spending time with it and never giving it the love and attention that it gives to you as cruel- not in a WHW way but mentally cruel.

I don't really agree with that. If all its physically needs are met, it's healthy, not too fat or thin and has equine company I think a horse in adequate grazing doesn't normally crave human "love and attention". I think you're crediting a horse with human sentiments here.

 

[be positive]

I don't really agree with that. If all its physically needs are met, it's healthy, not too fat or thin and has equine company I think a horse in adequate grazing doesn't normally crave human "love and attention". I think you're crediting a horse with human sentiments here.

I agree horses are not dogs they do not really need human company, provided they have equine company they will usually be very happy.
We have to try not to make them too needy, a horse should retain its flight instinct to some extent and be content with its own kind.

 

[wattamus]

It must just be my horsey then She loves her cuddles and attention if i don't see her once a day she won't eat- full on true story, when she was at the vets she wouldn't eat, the minute i walked in the stable and gave her some fuss she was at that hay like a, well a starved horse!then again i always knew she was a bit "special" This is just my belief and that is why i won't get another horse (even though i could afford one and want one) because i don't think I'd have the time to give it the attention. as i said, thats just me though- and believe me i would never say to anyone that i thought they were being cruel to their horse for not giving it attention (everyone has different opinios on the matter and they are entitled to them, mine is slightly more extreme), but i personally wouldn't have a horse unless i could spend time with it x

 

[Oberon]

I don't really agree with that. If all its physically needs are met, it's healthy, not too fat or thin and has equine company I think a horse in adequate grazing doesn't normally crave human "love and attention". I think you're crediting a horse with human sentiments here.

That would hold for my Tank - he wouldn't really care if he never saw another human again as long as he's with his mates.

But my Arab seems to prefer people. He really can't abide other horses...they smell

.

 

[wattamus]

mine likes to see other horses but doesn't want them to get too close

 

[indie999]

Agree neglect but then leaving rugs on when the sun is coming up and temp is rising is also neglect, the horse might not die but its still suffering!It might live in a nice posh home but I think people forget the companies marketing all these different rug types are sometimes the true beneficiaries££. Completely understand to keep clean if being used all the time etc to save time. But to keep warm sometimes think this is neglect too...humanisation of animals etc etc

Cruelty ?Fat horses? Thin horses underweight underfed. More fat horses/just like fat people.

Suppose the one that has been in racing is over/misuse of whip etc etc was that cruelty???

Obviously the recent ones where horses have been neglected ie no food/water dead horses with live ones etc etc (Bucks).

Just some of mine..?

 

[FionaM12]

It must just be my horsey then She loves her cuddles and attention if i don't see her once a day she won't eat- full on true story, when she was at the vets she wouldn't eat, the minute i walked in the stable and gave her some fuss she was at that hay like a, well a starved horse!x

It's a bit different if they're kept stabled. The ideal situation from a horse's point of view is to live out, with other horses. Do you really think your horse wouldn't graze with the herd because you're not there?

Having said that, many years ago I had a rescued pony two-year-old for a while, which had been raised in solitary confinement and nearly starved to death. He actually prefered my company to other ponies, and would leave the "herd" to follow me about. This made him lovable, true, but it was not a good thing. His treatment in his formative years had left him damaged and he didn't have a normal and healthy equine attitude.

 

[tazzle]

depends on your point of view

there are some people who think its cruel to keep any animal as a pet never mind ride a horse ........ obviously none of us on this forum do

there are some who think hunting is cruel ... many on here do not

there are some who think that rolkur is cruel .... most on here do if past threads are anything to go by.

someone thought I was cruel to muzzle my then very overweight cob mare when I had no other option available at that time .... cos five times (s)he cut it off of her depite me putting up posters telling them that laminitis kills and vet approved of the muzzle !!!


I agree with Oberon and Harelquin ..... what might be cruel for one horse is fine for another. Stabling and rugging are prime examples.




Many things we do with horses are in the "grey " area...

the use of a whip is subjective ...... at what point does it become cruel .... again depends on ones values

The use of rope halters, pressure halters, certain bits ( or bits at all ), certain pieces of tack etc etc etc. ...... oh boy such a huuuuuuuuuuuugeeee can of worms

 

[FionaM12]

Agree neglect but then leaving rugs on when the sun is coming up and temp is rising is also neglect, the horse might not die but its still suffering!It might live in a nice posh home but I think people forget the companies marketing all these different rug types are sometimes the true beneficiaries££. Completely understand to keep clean if being used all the time etc to save time. But to keep warm sometimes think this is neglect too...humanisation of animals etc etc

Cruelty ?Fat horses? Thin horses underweight underfed. More fat horses/just like fat people.

Suppose the one that has been in racing is over/misuse of whip etc etc was that cruelty???

Obviously the recent ones where horses have been neglected ie no food/water dead horses with live ones etc etc (Bucks).

Just some of mine..?

To me those are possible examples of cruelty, not a definition.

Or am I being pedantic?

 

[HarlequinSeren]

Oh boy, like indie999 said I may have just opened a huge can of worms here but at least it makes for an interesting discussion.
With regards to stabling, would you consider me cruel? My boy is stabled the majority of the time, due to him being ridiculously prone to mud fever - he only has to look at mud for it to flare up again and after him getting multiple infections from it despite me making every possible effort to control it my vet and I have decided stabling him is less cruel than allowing him to continuously get ill and in pain. He gets turnout on a concrete yard with plenty of grass around the edges and on the sandschool when it isn't too wet, so he is getting adequet exercise. He doesn't seem to mind bring stabled, he is just as happy now as he was before and he hasn't started box walking etc.. So for my situation what do you think?
I am wearing my bulletproof vest so let rip if you wish
HS x

 

[Wagtail]

What annoys me is when people pipe up 'but there are far worse things that go on, what about starving children...etc...etc' As if that is a sound argument against people getting upset about other forms of cruelty. It's a guilt throwing tactic to throw people off course, by effectively saying they don't care about the starving children because they are concerned about someone who is far too heavy riding their horse.

 

[FionaM12]

What annoys me is when people pipe up 'but there are far worse things that go on, what about starving children...etc...etc' As if that is a sound argument against people getting upset about other forms of cruelty. It's a guilt throwing tactic to throw people off course, by effectively saying they don't care about the starving children because they are concerned about someone who is far too heavy riding their horse.

Well said.

 

[HarlequinSeren]

Wagtail that was very well said! It was the point I was trying to get across in the original posting of thi thread. Cruelty is cruelty no matter whether it is hugely publicised neglect/abuse/starvation cases or "minor" cruelties such as that which was discussed yesterday.
HS x

 

[debsg]

Oh boy, like indie999 said I may have just opened a huge can of worms here but at least it makes for an interesting discussion.
With regards to stabling, would you consider me cruel? My boy is stabled the majority of the time, due to him being ridiculously prone to mud fever - he only has to look at mud for it to flare up again and after him getting multiple infections from it despite me making every possible effort to control it my vet and I have decided stabling him is less cruel than allowing him to continuously get ill and in pain. He gets turnout on a concrete yard with plenty of grass around the edges and on the sandschool when it isn't too wet, so he is getting adequet exercise. He doesn't seem to mind bring stabled, he is just as happy now as he was before and he hasn't started box walking etc.. So for my situation what do you think?
I am wearing my bulletproof vest so let rip if you wish

HS x

I don't think you are being cruel to your boy, if his mud fever is that bad then subjecting him to pain and infection would be far worse. You are providing space for him to mooch about, so he is not 'shut in' all day and night. Does he have ad lib hay to pick at? And, most importantly I think, does he have company?

 

[HarlequinSeren]

Yes ad lib haylage and yes company. Glad you don't think I'm being cruel as I personally feel it really is the best in this situation, he seems happy enough but I still do feel a bit guilty as I know he loves being out in the field, however he doesn't seem any less happy now he isn't. I think it's just my gut instinct saying horses should live outside that's making me feel bad.
HS x

 

[ISHmad]

Cruelty is cruelty no matter whether it is hugely publicised neglect/abuse/starvation cases or "minor" cruelties such as that which was discussed yesterday.
HS x

Couldn't agree with you more HS.

Very few of us have perfect conditions for keeping our horses so it often involves a degree of compromise. Then it comes down to what you will and won't compromise on.

At the end of the day if you can't find anything which prevents your horse getting mud fever then you are doing the right thing in how you are managing your horse. I prefer horses to be out but realise it isn't always possible for whatever reason. Common sense should come into it, and sadly in many areas of the horse world that seems to be sadly lacking.

You have set things up so that your horse has some freedom, not just stood in a stable 24/7 but also not standing in conditions which will ultimately cause him pain.

 

[HarlequinSeren]

Thank you ISHmad, tbh I was fully expecting people to say that I'm cruel for keeping him in, saying how I should manage the condition better (I have tried virtually everything that I can think of and nothing works for him)
I agree that there is very few (if any!) places that have "perfect" conditions for horses. And even those who do are subject to opinion - as said earlier, perfect for one could be cruel for another. Finding the right situation for the individual is key I believe.
HS x

 

[amandap]

Definition of cruelty?
Starting with the assumption that we are talking about domesticated animals.
I suppose my definition in it's simplest form is anything that impacts negatively on animals both mentally and physically. Any compromise must be for the true benefit of the horse in those circumstances even if negative. For me when it is unnescesarily negative is when it becomes cruel.

Stabling for example can be negative or positive depending on the individual horse, length of time and circumstances.

As others have said it does depend so much on personal ethics when in more grey areas.

Mta. Just been off and found a definition.
cru·el·ty/ˈkro͞oəltē/
Noun:
Callous indifference to or pleasure in causing pain and suffering.
Behavior that causes pain or suffering to a person or animal.

 

[fatpiggy]

Personally, I think that the definition of cruelty is deliberately doing something which you know will be harmful to the horse, so that would be not feeding in the winter when there isn't any grass, not giving correct veterinary care when it is needed, not changing rugs according to changing weather conditions (eg. horse left with a heavyweight outdoor rug in mid July when it was 75 degrees), not giving adequate hoofcare. Then of course there is beating a horse, deliberately withholding food because it was "naughty" or wouldn't be caught and so on. Yesterday while I was poo-picking I went and straightened the rugs of two owned by the same person (have only ever seen her 3 times since she moved on 3 years ago) because they had been listing heavily all week so clearly no-one had been up to them. The little old pony's rug is too big and clearly slipping back and pinching because when I put my hands under the wither section she had a right grump at me and she isn't a nasty pony. I also suspect she may have Cushings, looking at her. God knows if she is being fed, but I doubt it and there is nothing worth having on the field. I don't mind that for my horse as she gets two good feeds a day and is in at night so out time is purely for exercise and socialising. Is this owner cruel? Yes I think she is because she is knowingly neglecting the needs of the animals.

 

[Abbeygale]

Would there not need to be some grey area however, if the ends justify the means. For example, for some horses they may well find the whole backing process stressful - many may not show any outward signs - but surely it must be stressful? However, if the backing process, and this period of stress did not happen they would not be ridden? I am not in the "riding is cruel" camp - but it must cause them stress, although I am sure the vast majority of horses to over come this stress.

However, the benefit of the horse overcoming this stress, isn't really in the horses interest, but in the riders / owners interest.

I think it is a difficult question to answer, and will be looking forward to this discussion continuing - and so I do hope the response all stay in focus on the discussion, to try and avoid any button pushers

 

[Ibblebibble]

there is only one definition as found in the dictionary but there are thousands of things that people could perceive as cruelty due to their own opinions
Perceived cruelty seems to get more of a response than in your face cruelty on this forum though, the thread about the starving ponies in Ireland got 123 replies over a week and struggled to stay on the front page, any thread that involves someone who in someone elses opinion is being cruel will get double that in a day!

 

[Cortez]

The definition of cruelty is open to so many interpretations, often depending on the customs of the age and/or location. The CAUSES of cruelty might be an even better subject to persue as I believe most cruelty is not deliberate but a combination of ignorance and pure laziness.

 

[Wagtail]

there is only one definition as found in the dictionary but there are thousands of things that people could perceive as cruelty due to their own opinions
Perceived cruelty seems to get more of a response than in your face cruelty on this forum though, the thread about the starving ponies in Ireland got 123 replies over a week and struggled to stay on the front page, any thread that involves someone who in someone elses opinion is being cruel will get double that in a day!

It's simple. It's because everyone agrees that the staving horses case is cruelty. There is nothing to discuss. It is cruel, full stop. Where someone on this forum is perceived to be cruel by some others then a huge argument usually develops between those who think it is cruel and those who don't.

 

[FionaM12]

the thread about the starving ponies in Ireland got 123 replies over a week and struggled to stay on the front page, any thread that involves someone who in someone elses opinion is being cruel will get double that in a day!

I suspect the difference is due to the fact that one had already been recognised as dreadful, and there wasn't a lot to add to that. Whereas in the other case the "perpetrator" in the other case seemed oblivious about it.

If the owner of the Irish ponies had started a thread entitled "Are my ponies underfed?" for a joke, I think there would have been quite a response.