Democratisation of knowledge

[Bonnie Allie]

I am loving the explosion of excellent online and digital learning. Really getting so much out of my equestrian subscriptions now that I’ve been able to weed out the average from the really good ones.

My poor horses are getting so much more work now as I try to put the theory into practice. Still love my instructor as she is super smart and also an avid digital learner so we have some great discussions and she brings new recommendations for additional learning opportunities.

Also doing a couple of stackable credentials related to my line of work that are global and are just so engaging.

Who else is loving their learning?

 

[sbloom]

I think a lot of people are actually getting overwhelmed which is why I try and edit/curate for my customers. But yes, there's some amazing stuff out there and a lot of it is really getting to the nub of how to help horses be more horse, be healthier, have much better long term soundness. It's exciting!

 

[AntiPuck]

I do find it great, but also definitely overwhelming, as there are so many schools of thought, and I've tried some things that just didn't work for me, others that have, etc. and the trial-and-error can also be tiring and dispiriting. I also work remotely, study online remotely at a traditional uni, and then bits of online learning for other stuff, so sometimes just want a person there for real-time feedback!

I'd love to hear what you have really liked, OP.

 

[ycbm]

Same. I just don't know where or how to pick a couple of trees from the forest of available options.
.

 

[milliepops]

I really struggle to fit anything more in, after 9+ hours in front of the laptop for work, sorting the horses out physically it's a struggle to do anything except collapse in the evenings, particularly after all the other domestic chores. I take holiday for my in-person lessons!

 

[TPO]

I really struggle to fit anything more in, after 9+ hours in front of the laptop for work, sorting the horses out physically it's a struggle to do anything except collapse in the evenings, particularly after all the other domestic chores. I take holiday for my in-person lessons!

Literally just said this same thing on a message to someone else. Alongside working on a laptop I stupidly signed myself up for a 100% online HND course that I'm dreading. The thought of watching anything else, even horse related, just leaves me drained.

I had signed up for Joe Midgley's Good Horsemanship Channel. I found it excellent value, £5.99 per month for access to articles and videos or £7.99 that also entitles you to send videos weekly (I think) and get feedback/lesson advice. I have just cancelled it as, even although I haven't watched all the videos, because I just couldn't focus on it or find time, despite all the hours wasted on here... I've seen him in person quite a few times and really like/rate him. the Good Horsemanship Channel also has articles about tack, teeth, bitting, training etc too. You get 2 day free trial and can cancel at any time so I would recommend the free trial at least to anyone interested in training.

I don't know how it's taken me this long but I've only just found out that Buck Brannanman has a subscription video service too. It's $19.99 per month which seems like good value. I haven't signed up to it yet because still no motivation to stare at my phone for any longer.

Ditto the thoracic sling website/programme that's been mentioned on here quite a lot. I am interested in it but given the cost (approx £122) I'd prefer to know exactly what I got for that money rather than just "access" to a fb page. For me I want it presented on a plate and preferably with a step by step programme/checklist. Also that money pays for two physio sessions and for now I'd rather pay for hands on treatments. Someone also mentioned that the introduction video is 3hrs long and that's a big old nope from me and my decimated attention span.

Even when I had an H&C TV subscription and an interest in things like TRT I just couldn't quite bring myself to sit and watch. Yet I'd happily go to demos/clinics with trainers doing the exact same thing in the freezing cold.

So in short I've yet to find anything that inspires me to 1) watch it 2) try it out for myself.

Sorry Bonnie Allie, total fun sponge! I didn't mean to bring the thread down. If you have any recommendations I'd be interested in hearing them

 

[milliepops]

i HAVE signed up to TRT and find the videos and lessons accessible as they are *short*
Even my minimal attention span during downtime can cope with that, but i have to tell OH to stop talking to me which doesn't go down too well, oh to be young, free and single again (not really, i would have to sell the herd then! )

 

[sbloom]

Ditto the thoracic sling website/programme that's been mentioned on here quite a lot. I am interested in it but given the cost (approx £122) I'd prefer to know exactly what I got for that money rather than just "access" to a fb page. For me I want it presented on a plate and preferably with a step by step programme/checklist. Also that money pays for two physio sessions and for now I'd rather pay for hands on treatments. Someone also mentioned that the introduction video is 3hrs long and that's a big old nope from me and my decimated attention span.

Every horse will need something different, it's a long way from a checklist kind of programme, though I'd say it's a WAY better investment than two physio sessions. Doing BTMM should mean you need the physio much less, but also avoid all sorts of issues with horses, physical and behavioural. The intro video isn't critical at all, some don't bother with it, I watched it almost in the background, in two tranches but there are indeed guides which you work through.

It's not just a FB group, but is presented in a FB group where you get personal attention from Celeste herself and her trainers. It's such a simple approach, but with a lot of understanding needed, that showing too much from the programme as a taster wouldn't work for her at all, and she's gone from thinking she'd have a couple of hundred people on it to now nearer 2000, so she doesn't need to plug it.

I really don't think any of the courses that truly work should be too much step by step - Straightness Training is, in some ways, but it doesn't make it easy and it's MUCH more complex than Balance Through Movement Method.

Horses for courses though, it's never going to be for everyone and I have at least 10 other links I provide to my customers, I just think this is by far the best.

 

[Fieldlife]

I really struggle to fit anything more in, after 9+ hours in front of the laptop for work, sorting the horses out physically it's a struggle to do anything except collapse in the evenings, particularly after all the other domestic chores. I take holiday for my in-person lessons!

I find if I can listen to it whilst I’m doing chores or driving, it’s great. And this works for many podcasts, sone lives and some you tube education where it’s mainly narrative. But I’ve little time for watching screens.

So was easy to listen to 3 hour live from BTM from Celeste’s group. I drive up to 50-90 minutes most days. Not to mention poo picking, cooking etc

 

[milliepops]

Oh the poo picking podcast queue is lengthy and only just under control I think my conclusion in general is we don't live long enough. that or... work should take up less time

 

[sbloom]

Oh the poo picking podcast queue is lengthy and only just under control I think my conclusion in general is we don't live long enough. that or... work should take up less time

Three lifetimes needed for horses!

 

[milliepops]

would only work if you were as sprightly at 250 as you were at 20. otherwise it could get a bit depressing!

 

[TPO]

I know that you keep saying saying this and must feel like a broken record but I don't get it!

I was being blasé about the checklist but some sort of guidance works better [for me] than just watching what other people are doing or have achieved.

There's nothing new under the sun with horses (blatantly stolen from tarrsteps) but I am failing to see what's so "special" about what Celeste is doing. I don't mean special ina derogatory way, but what is she doing that is different or new or break through?

Personally I've done EBW and McT-C training alongside previously being a massive horse geek. I'm rusty now but was pretty hot on anatomy, muscle function and correct use etc. The most I can fathom about Celeste is a soft neck and withers up which to me is what should be aimed for anyway. So what does she offer that is different from what is readily available?

Again I appreciate that she doesn't have to sell herself or do anything, that's completely fine. However her "programme", for want of a better word, has been touted on here a fair bit but no one can actually say what it is and what it does. With the greatest of respect you don't own a horse so haven't done the practical side, so how can/do you really know how it works in real life terms?

I've seen enough before and after pictures to know not to put my stock in them. Heck I can take a picture of my upside down necked llama pony and one with his back rounded, stepping under and withers up. Sadly does not mean I'm a good trainer!

Again celeste doesn't have to "sell" anything and I'm not saying that she should. But enough people have posted about it on here and can't say what it is, how does it differ from correct posture work?

Why/how is watching videos of someone doing whatever it is to then try and emulate myself more value than a trained and qualified physio putting hands on a horse and prescribing exercises relevant to that horse?

As an aside my horse doesn't "need" physio and doesn't have any pre existing issues. I do hands on stuff but also like other eyes (& hands) on him to hopefully avoid there ever being any issues and to know his baseline of normal should anything ever happen or just the general aging process.

I know this reads like I want to be sold on something, I am just interested in bodywork and correct work in the horses interest. This sounds like something that I would be interested in but the whole cloak and dagger thing is off putting. Most things should be able to be explained in simple terms. I'm not asking for freebies but just a basic introduction as to what the product is.

 

[sbloom]

I think in many ways TPO you will have some of what she offers under your belt, I'm not here to flog her course, but for people who've done no groundwork, people who've done some but struggled with it, who lack connection in contact in ridden work, who have NQR horses....it's the best course possible to recommend to them.

Connection - relaxation, safe space, moving from sympathetic to parasympathetic nervous system, releasing the underneck
Engagement - being able to take the weight back
Integration - adduction/abduction

A gross oversimplification, but gives you an idea. Started in halt, only attempted in movement and under saddle once established in/from halt. Many horses show immense depths of "processing" - standing or lying some process for up to an hour. There's something about HOW she gets you to tackle all this - immense patience, observation, breathing - that is transformative for so many owners, which then transfers to incredible release for the horse.

I have bodyworker friends, rehabbers, utter experts in the field, who are loving her course.

Equally I love Manolo Mendez, Straightness Training, Dressage in Hand with Josepha whatever her name is, Jec Ballou, Ali Wakelin, they all have their place.....but when someone has been on one of those courses and reacts to BTMM by saying "ahhh, that's why he couldn't do that movement and that's how I should be preparing to do the exercise" then I had to listen!

 

[milliepops]

I think when you're on the outside looking in, it's very hard to assess what is going to give you additional information and what is not.
And you also don't know the level of knowledge, or skill or experience or whatever the person having that lightbulb has got. so as an outsider, you want the lightbulb, but you might have already had it from a different source

No time is wasted working with your horse, but it's the time spent harvesting information that i find hard to justify unless i can gauge the benefits i might be getting, very hard to weigh it all up isn't it! I went for TRT because I feel like the body-training bit for current horse is within my grasp with my existing knowledge and through lessons, it's the mind training that i need help with.

 

[AntiPuck]

I know that you keep saying saying this and must feel like a broken record but I don't get it!

...

I know this reads like I want to be sold on something, I am just interested in bodywork and correct work in the horses interest. This sounds like something that I would be interested in but the whole cloak and dagger thing is off putting. Most things should be able to be explained in simple terms. I'm not asking for freebies but just a basic introduction as to what the product is.

I must admit, having seen the programme recommended a few times on here - I have the same reticence (albeit am far less knowledgeable than you). It sounds interesting, but also a bit mystical and advanced, so i'd be worried a numpty like me wouldn't actually be able to get anything out of it for the horse.

 

[TPO]

I think in many ways TPO you will have some of what she offers under your belt, I'm not here to flog her course, but for people who've done no groundwork, people who've done some but struggled with it, who lack connection in contact in ridden work, who have NQR horses....it's the best course possible to recommend to them.

Connection - relaxation, safe space, moving from sympathetic to parasympathetic nervous system, releasing the underneck
Engagement - being able to take the weight back
Integration - adduction/abduction

A gross oversimplification, but gives you an idea. Started in halt, only attempted in movement and under saddle once established in/from halt. Many horses show immense depths of "processing" - standing or lying some process for up to an hour. There's something about HOW she gets you to tackle all this - immense patience, observation, breathing - that is transformative for so many owners, which then transfers to incredible release for the horse.

I have bodyworker friends, rehabbers, utter experts in the field, who are loving her course.

Equally I love Manolo Mendez, Straightness Training, Dressage in Hand with Josepha whatever her name is, Jec Ballou, Ali Wakelin, they all have their place.....but when someone has been on one of those courses and reacts to BTMM by saying "ahhh, that's why he couldn't do that movement and that's how I should be preparing to do the exercise" then I had to listen!

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Thanks foe the reply

I know ow that she doesn't need to sell it and that you aren't her agent but you're the most accessible target!

It does interest me and it sounds like something I would like to know about and learn. I just don't know what "it" is and don't want to take a punt with ~£120

I recommended Joe Midgley above. I can explain my take on what he offers and how he trains without removing the need to subscribe to him to find out how to do it. He too, like all good trainers, talks about (& works towards/rides with the aim of) connection and softness along with building the foundations on the ground.

I just don't understand what it is thst Celeste offers. The most recent before and after pictures (from one clinic?) look amazing but what is it thats different from everyone else offering rehab/groundwork training.

The relaxation of the neck; how? Is it hand on techniques to release fascia and muscles, is it stretches and releases, is it dynamic work, how do you know when to ask more/what's the horses limit and when to stop?

I don't think my tone is coming across well but there's no badness in it. Just questioning!

 

[sbloom]

It's groundwork. She's a rider, trainer, bodyworker for both horse and rider, but this is groundwork, a course she developed when she realised that bodywork on its own wasn't enough, that adjustments don't hold if you don't change how horses move. Her background is structural integration, which is barely known, even for humans, so trying to explain exactly how she works is tricky. The bodywork is fascia based, I think in 1 to 1s she may give some physical trigger points for releases etc, but not in a generic programme that anyone can follow.

Does any other programme explain all that though, eg how you'll know when you've done enough, until you're in the course?!

I really think it's square peg, round hole, it's not your bag. All I can suggest is to listen to any of the podcast interviews she's done, and if it still doesn't float your boat then at least you know.

 

[Fieldlife]

Thanks foe the reply

I know ow that she doesn't need to sell it and that you aren't her agent but you're the most accessible target!

It does interest me and it sounds like something I would like to know about and learn. I just don't know what "it" is and don't want to take a punt with ~£120

I recommended Joe Midgley above. I can explain my take on what he offers and how he trains without removing the need to subscribe to him to find out how to do it. He too, like all good trainers, talks about (& works towards/rides with the aim of) connection and softness along with building the foundations on the ground.

I just don't understand what it is thst Celeste offers. The most recent before and after pictures (from one clinic?) look amazing but what is it thats different from everyone else offering rehab/groundwork training.

The relaxation of the neck; how? Is it hand on techniques to release fascia and muscles, is it stretches and releases, is it dynamic work, how do you know when to ask more/what's the horses limit and when to stop?

I don't think my tone is coming across well but there's no badness in it. Just questioning!

Your tone reads as just questioning.

For context I do groundwork/ pole work / gymnastic work. Love Jec Ballou’s 55 corrective exercises. As well as range of ridden work. Ridden to BD medium. Current horse working BD Elementary.

I joined Celeste’s group in May. Timed with my horse having a few weeks off with a wound, so I had the time to learn.

Some is new / some accentuates stuff I’ve learnt elsewhere. Some is existing knowledge.

But I think we’ve benefited. My monthly trainer, lady I do the classical in hand with and saddler all noticed a positive change (without me asking or saying I was doing anything different).

But don’t think suit everyone.

 

[Cortez]

Yes, the availability of all the knowledge in the world is wonderful, but all the world's dross is also out there and all too often people have so little discernment that they are unable to tell the difference.

 

[stangs]

Another person who spends most of their working time on the computer, and then does non-horse related learning online as well, so I'm thoroughly sick of it by the time it comes to equine studying. I much prefer books, which I supplement with the occasional blog post, webinar, and paper. Besides, there's not much point paying a monthly subscription to something when you don't own a horse.

I also feel that, with the increase in these online courses, we're starting to see a revival of the type cultishness there used to be (and still is) around NH schools. People thinking its the next best thing since sliced bread, that there's no other way to do horsemanship, that only their teacher knows what they're doing...

 

[Fieldlife]

I do find it great, but also definitely overwhelming, as there are so many schools of thought, and I've tried some things that just didn't work for me, others that have, etc. and the trial-and-error can also be tiring and dispiriting. I also work remotely, study online remotely at a traditional uni, and then bits of online learning for other stuff, so sometimes just want a person there for real-time feedback!

I'd love to hear what you have really liked, OP.

Not OP but I like:-

Humble Hoof
Warwick Schiller
The equine physio
The equestrian experience
Equestrian voices
Equine voices
The horse first
Buck off Banter
Horse & Hound podcast
Hack your mindset
Mary Wanless
The whole horse podcast

 

[AntiPuck]

Not OP but I like:-

Humble Hoof
Warwick Schiller
The equine physio
The equestrian experience
Equestrian voices
Equine voices
The horse first
Buck off Banter
Horse & Hound podcast
Hack your mindset
Mary Wanless
The whole horse podcast

Thank you, that's quite the list!

 

[SEL]

My favourite paid for site is Equitopia which has tonnes of stuff on you can rummage through as and when. If I particularly like a presenter then I'll look at more of what they've done.

There's so much freebie stuff around you have to really analyse whether something is "right" and not just take it on face value. I particularly find that with nutrition.

I'm training as an equine bodyworker and that does make me stop and think about the impact on the horse of some stuff that is promoted. I'm on Celeste's page and it fits well with my studies but I'm careful about who I point towards it. It was set up originally for her client base and I doubt she ever expected it to be promoted so far and wide. To that extent it is more a collection of information so needs to be worked through. A structured programme it is not.

@TPO Celeste promotes some very basic exercises and gives a lot of theory behind the thoracic sling and why her exercises develop it. She doesn't market them as a complete package because she works hands on with her client base and will do relevant muscle releases, exercises etc dependent on the horse in front of her. I'd say that unless you're someone who wants to dive into a rabbit hole of what muscles support the thoracic sling and how then it's probably not the programme for you. I've known a couple of people give up because they were expecting a structured programme and it isn't that ?

 

[humblepie]

Another who sits at a computer all day so I don't tend to do any signing up to things - I did an in person one day equine massage course a few years back and had some very good books as a result of that to work through. I did a couple of on line zoom training things during the main part of the pandemic which were good but prefer to search for something specific if I want to know more about it or ask someone.

 

[milliepops]

As an abstract thought, i think there's a degree of FOMO too. Probably all of us want to do the absolute best by all of our horses and so there's a lingering concern that you might be missing a critical element if you don't try to keep up with All The Things

I have no brainpower for books either. There is always something i should be doing, whether that's working, poo picking or sleeping! the last time i read a whole book was when we had a HHO readalong for The Dark Is Rising i think there are about 20 that i've started that are also guilt tripping me.

Finding time to actually do practical stuff is much easier, the horses need seeing to in person on a daily basis after all. I think i'm concluding that i personally have a better feel and instinct for ridden work than groundwork and in terms of effort expended for effects created, sometimes you have to play to your strengths. Also, while i am completely signed up to improving your eye for stuff, i do think that it's important to keep up with actual trained professional input too.

 

[Fieldlife]

As an abstract thought, i think there's a degree of FOMO too. Probably all of us want to do the absolute best by all of our horses and so there's a lingering concern that you might be missing a critical element if you don't try to keep up with All The Things

I have no brainpower for books either. There is always something i should be doing, whether that's working, poo picking or sleeping! the last time i read a whole book was when we had a HHO readalong for The Dark Is Rising i think there are about 20 that i've started that are also guilt tripping me.

Finding time to actually do practical stuff is much easier, the horses need seeing to in person on a daily basis after all. I think i'm concluding that i personally have a better feel and instinct for ridden work than groundwork and in terms of effort expended for effects created, sometimes you have to play to your strengths. Also, while i am completely signed up to improving your eye for stuff, i do think that it's important to keep up with actual trained professional input too.

Most of the stuff I listen to and find most educational is more personal growth / mindset / attitude etc which can be for people / or training horses (I think all handling is training). I am also into improving pasture and managing pasture.

I dont think anything I listen to or watch, is a replacement for experts on the ground. I think it helps me, maybe, I have been riding for over 33 years, and have lots of existing opinions slowly formed, so I am not going to blow in the wind with every different thing I listen too. So the how to stuff on podcasts is a bit pointless, as people do it differently and it's better taught / learnt in person. But the philosophy, positive reinforcement, physio stuff, vet stuff, care stuff, communication stuff can be fascinating.

Agree on playing to strengths. I am a wonky rider (its an ongoing battle) without great co-ordination. I work horses better on the ground in some aspects, so mix of both types of work workss for me.

 

[Fieldlife]

As an abstract thought, i think there's a degree of FOMO too. Probably all of us want to do the absolute best by all of our horses and so there's a lingering concern that you might be missing a critical element if you don't try to keep up with All The Things

It is impossible, there are 100's of horsey educational and chat podcasts, impossible to keep up with all. IMO not worth even trying or worrying about.

I pick and chose, I more want something to fill my dead time with something either useful or interesting. So listen when driving / plaiting / poo pickin / tack cleaning etc.

Some podcasts shows, have 3 amazing podcasts and the rest is not of interest etc. Some are all brilliant.

 

[Quigleyandme]

I too have enthusiastically embraced online tutorials. I absolutely get what she wishes to impart and how she achieves it but when I try it on my two it’s just eh? What ya doing? Feck off. ??

 

[Fieldlife]

I too have enthusiastically embraced online tutorials. I absolutely get what she wishes to impart and how she achieves it but when I try it on my two it’s just eh? What ya doing? Feck off. ??

Are you doing it in their turnout field?