Desperate need of advice, horse not right after two surgeries! At my wits end.

[Patterdale]

Sorry I missed this post.

Regarding lengthy time off, he has had about 7 months off now in the field, bar the surgery box rests etc. I think if time off would help him, it would have by now?

With respect, he hasn’t had time off. He’s been having surgeries and groundwork and box rest.
Time off doesn’t mean not having a rider on, it means being out 24/7 with friends and not even having a headcollar on bar a foot trim when needed.

If I had the time and the money to spend months doing groundwork, I would

Don’t, just turn away. He’ll do his own groundwork.

I will not sell him as I would dread to think what hands he could fall into, but equally I cannot really afford to keep him long term retired for numerous reasons.

The reality of this though is that you have a lame horse. You can either turn him away, retire him or PTS. That is it. Even selling to a hacking home will be a massive risk. With his history now he’ll never be a sound straightforward saleable horse again, it’s harsh but that’s the truth.

It’s really crap and I really feel for you but that’s horses and we’ve all been there. Your best chance is to just turn away for a year minimum.

 

[Goldenstar]

Very very difficult .I would if possible keep the horse working put unridden by leading it I would walk lunge it about the place with its nose on the ground for three months don’t do any pole work until it will walk and trot consistently with its head and neck really stretch and strengthen out and down .I would get it out and about leading it from another horse .
Turning a KS horse out is unlikely to help because posture is such a big part of deal with this issue when a horse gets fat and let down it just makes it harder to get their posture right .
This is a syndrome we are just beginning to understand and I feel some of the things we are told about it won’t stand up to long term scrutiny for example if it’s is truly about horses being forward and down why to horses that live in the field suffer. Why do horses who live out suffer crowding ?
My thought is now that the role of the thoracic sling is absolutely key to horses developing KS and PSD .
Both the horse I know who worked well had no behaviour issues linked to diagnosis showed hyoid discomfort because they drew their tongues back .
The thing glares at me from your post is that you worked to changed the horses way of going that’s a thing I think you see when these issues raise their head at that age
The horses learns to cope and trains a rider who to lets it do things the way the horse likes ,the horse changes homes the method of work changes a new set of eyes are on it daily and the problems start to rear their heads
You are in a tight spot a minimum of another three months off the horses back it’s called for IMO but I would avoid turning away completely if you can .

I would want another back X-ray to see what going on in there .

 

[AmyMay]

Don’t, just turn away. He’ll do his own groundwork.

Really, after spinal surgery?

 

[Goldenstar]

And another thing is there chance he’s suffering an undiagnosed bilateral front foot issue if there’s even a sniff of a suggestion of thatI would block out one front foot if you get a reaction I would call it a day .

 

[Goldenstar]

Sorry I missed this post.



With respect, he hasn’t had time off. He’s been having surgeries and groundwork and box rest.
Time off doesn’t mean not having a rider on, it means being out 24/7 with friends and not even having a headcollar on bar a foot trim when needed.



Don’t, just turn away. He’ll do his own groundwork.



The reality of this though is that you have a lame horse. You can either turn him away, retire him or PTS. That is it. Even selling to a hacking home will be a massive risk. With his history now he’ll never be a sound straightforward saleable horse again, it’s harsh but that’s the truth.

It’s really crap and I really feel for you but that’s horses and we’ve all been there. Your best chance is to just turn away for a year minimum.

Really, after spinal surgery?

If horses who where turned out did their own rehab these horses would have cores like steel. horses on rest and turnout suffer worse KS symptoms because of the loss of core strength.

 

[sbloom]

If horses who where turned out did their own rehab these horses would have cores like steel. horses on rest and turnout suffer worse KS symptoms because of the loss of core strength.

Agreed. I know several who are great when in work, MUST have plenty of TS focused groundwork and only sat on when they're truly ready, and then once in work they stay comfortable. If turned away they decline.

 

[Goldenstar]

I will just add IMO that KS surgery is at the very edge of what’s it’s ethical to put a horse through .
Look after your horses mind as well it’s a frightening painful experience for them .

 

[AmyMay]

I will just add IMO that KS surgery is at the very edge of what’s it’s ethical to put a horse through .

I agree.

 

[Goldenstar]

Agreed. I know several who are great when in work, MUST have plenty of TS focused groundwork and only sat on when they're truly ready, and then once in work they stay comfortable. If turned away they decline.

I agree .
Its also my opinion as an experienced person but not a vet that you have to be careful not to fit the horse to the rehab plan but fit the plan to the horse .
To be clear I am not saying Op has done that .

 

[Patterdale]

If horses who where turned out did their own rehab these horses would have cores like steel. horses on rest and turnout suffer worse KS symptoms because of the loss of core strength.

You are probably right, however it’s my view that it’s unethical to put horses through painful procedures which require long periods/a lifetime of a strict work regime purely for the means of making them rideable.

For me, if rest (meaning a natural long period of being a horse in a field left alone with other horses, plus or minus minimal necessary interventions first), wont make a horse rideable, then it shouldnt be rideable.

I know not many share my view, but the way I see it painful and frightening treatments on animals should only be carried out for their quality of life, not for our convenience or to enable our leisure activities, and however you dress it up that’s what it is.

I didn’t always have this view and have put horses through horrid times in the past in the quest for soundness, but never again. Turn it away or call it a day.

ETA this is not meant to come across as a judgement on people who, from the best motives do put their horses through repeated surgeries, box rest and rehab regimes. I’m not saying I’m right, but that’s just the way I see it.

 

[Goldenstar]

I am friends with a physio and they saw an explosion of KS cases after lockdown which was from horses being let down when people for very good reason let down horses because they did want to or could not ride .
It’s not IMO opinion ok to leave a horse out in full knowledge that it’s not getting what it needs to potentially recover from a procedure you have put it through if the horse could go out on 200 acres of undulating terrain perhaps but into the field that most of us have to use …no it won’t help this horse .
This horse needs careful targeted help to regain its poise and strength and of course it may never have had the tone it needed it may have moved for the whole of its working life to cover up this issue .
This very very difficult stuff not cured by putting them in a field .

 

[sbloom]

But @Patterdale we're not talking about painful procedures. If I was in a different profession, was working with the horse and was allowed to diagnose/prescribe I would hope I'd be recommending medical procedures in a tiny proportion of those currently going that route, and instead prescribing groundwork programmes, rider biomechanics (as we exacerbate or even cause issues ourselves) and keeping horses happy. The programme I recommend the most has the most profound effect on the emotions and behaviour of the horses, almost proving that it's actually fixing them, not just a period of chasing/"curing" symptoms around the body.

There are much better options than "turn away or call it a day" for so many horses but they're seldom talked about, and there's the frustration that many are rejected for lack of scientific "proof", for lack of formal training/qualifications, yet these people are turning out transformed horses over and over. I have been called a "fangirl" by a fellow professional (behind my back to a customer) for recommending my favourite one. We do the horse a disservice when we're not open to these things.

Here is a post of mine with some incredible before and afters, and in the group concerned there are so many success tales, and proof of progress with near-written-off horses:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=157310016792555&id=111138454743045

And just because it popped up on my news feed while I was looking: https://www.facebook.com/Anita.Mile...gzhYa9UNnMU6h5AyHRAq29TA6hxbqyoXZ2aK8nPpDtrMl

 

[Starzaan]

Correct rehab from kissing spines surgery takes at least six months of correct groundwork building up to ridden work.
my standard length of contract for KS Rehab liveries is 9 months.
He needs to go to a proper rehab yard ideally who knows how to handle his rehab correctly. That is your only option rather than PTS as I see it if you want to have a healthy, comfortable horse at the end of it.

 

[milliepops]

You are probably right, however it’s my view that it’s unethical to put horses through painful procedures which require long periods/a lifetime of a strict work regime purely for the means of making them rideable.

For me, if rest (meaning a natural long period of being a horse in a field left alone with other horses, plus or minus minimal necessary interventions first), wont make a horse rideable, then it shouldnt be rideable.

I know not many share my view, but the way I see it painful and frightening treatments on animals should only be carried out for their quality of life, not for our convenience or to enable our leisure activities, and however you dress it up that’s what it is.

I didn’t always have this view and have put horses through horrid times in the past in the quest for soundness, but never again. Turn it away or call it a day.

ETA this is not meant to come across as a judgement on people who, from the best motives do put their horses through repeated surgeries, box rest and rehab regimes. I’m not saying I’m right, but that’s just the way I see it.

I do understand where you are coming from with this but i think for me it falls into the same category as e.g. where vets say that an arthritic horse can be kept more comfortably mobile by doing gentle exercise with it. You could pts on the first diagnosis of arthritis or you could look at how to *ethically* meet it's physical requirements to stay in some sort of work. i think KS is similar. though people should be mindful about what is possible to achieve and that might not meet their riding ambitions.

I have one that i opted not to treat in order to keep her rideable (wobbler through injury). Vet offered various things but i retired her on diagnosis as it didn't sit right with me. but her condition is different in that self-management in the field is pretty much perfect for her quality of life, she won't put her neck in a painful position and so she has definitely improved physically for being given 100% field rest.
I'm not convinced that the same would have applied if she had KS.

 

[ellen2727]

How have ulcers been ruled out ?
Only way to rule them out is by scoping.

Yeah he has been scoped.

But surely that’s what you signed up for when sending him for surgery?

Apologies I worded that wrong. I have no problem with lunging and groundwork but what I meant is I am not spending weeks giving him treats when he sees the saddle pad etc! Masking the problems in my opinion, in his case.

This whole situation sounds strange. If your friend has had no problems for years and then suddenly the horse has kissing spines. I thought kissing spines is something they are born with and therefore there would have been problems at an earlier stage.

My friend had a lot of problems but not soundness ones. She rode him in draw reins with gag bits and a very tight drop nsoeband. She struggled to even to canter him. He used to stand in the stable with no hay all day and rarely got turned out. He was ridden so hollow and borderline rolkur. He had a very short choppy movement.

When I got him, I stripped it back to basics and put him in a simple snaffle with no flash. I did get his SI injected at this point as a recommendation. It took a while but after a few weeks the difference was amazing. He would canter around nice and round and steady, not perfect but a far cry from the short hollow overbend canter he used to do.

 

[sbloom]

Correct rehab from kissing spines surgery takes at least six months of correct groundwork building up to ridden work.
my standard length of contract for KS Rehab liveries is 9 months.
He needs to go to a proper rehab yard ideally who knows how to handle his rehab correctly. That is your only option rather than PTS as I see it if you want to have a healthy, comfortable horse at the end of it.

Yes and no, absolutely agree about the length of time, but I think it is possible to do the rehab yourself even if you have to learn the skills from scratch, equally a proper rehab yard (Starzaan are you continuing with yours, and where are you as you sound like someone I'd like to recommend!) is a brilliant way to go. However I find too many don't truly address the thoracic sling and compensatory movement patterns, so it's important to understand the basics yourself to help you select the right yard.

For DIY you need half decent facilities (though it can be done in a field really), a thick skin for all the people that will tell you what you're doing is nonsense, an open and inquisitive mind that enjoys learning, patience and the desire to improve yourself and not only your horse, as your horse will mirror your own issues, physical and emotional! However you'll need a good chunk of all of these when your horse returns from a rehab yard....

 

[sbloom]

I have no problem with lunging and groundwork but what I meant is I am not spending weeks giving him treats when he sees the saddle pad etc! Masking the problems in my opinion, in his case

Positive reinforcement, whilst unlikely to fix the situation on its own, can be very useful to get the horse to think beyond its immediate worries.

 

[ellen2727]

I will just add IMO that KS surgery is at the very edge of what’s it’s ethical to put a horse through .
Look after your horses mind as well it’s a frightening painful experience for them .

This surgery was the ligament snip - a considerably less invasive procedure than the bone shave with a high success rate, I would not have put him through the bone shave after what he has been through. The recovery period is significantly shorter for the snip. Horse's are sedated for the procedure rather than GA.

 

[Starzaan]

Yes and no, absolutely agree about the length of time, but I think it is possible to do the rehab yourself even if you have to learn the skills from scratch, equally a proper rehab yard (Starzaan are you continuing with yours, and where are you as you sound like someone I'd like to recommend!) is a brilliant way to go. However I find too many don't truly address the thoracic sling and compensatory movement patterns, so it's important to understand the basics yourself to help you select the right yard.

For DIY you need half decent facilities (though it can be done in a field really), a thick skin for all the people that will tell you what you're doing is nonsense, an open and inquisitive mind that enjoys learning, patience and the desire to improve yourself and not only your horse, as your horse will mirror your own issues, physical and emotional! However you'll need a good chunk of all of these when your horse returns from a rehab yard....

I completely agree, but in my experience the vast majority of people simply don’t stick to the plan.
I’ve had one client who did all her own rehab from KS surgery and she was absolutely to the letter diligent. She was amazing and the mare came back ten times stronger.
but on the whole, people seem to take short cuts and as you know, there’s no such thing as a shortcut in rehab work!

 

[sbloom]

This surgery was the ligament snip - a considerably less invasive procedure than the bone shave with a high success rate, I would not have put him through the bone shave after what he has been through. The recovery period is significantly shorter for the snip. Horse's are sedated for the procedure rather than GA.

What happens to a joint when the ligaments are snipped? More stable or less stable? The procedure may be more minor, but it may affect his long term prognosis. This horse needs more stability than he had before, and so much training focuses on range of movement, tracking up, athletic moves etc...you need the opposite, for him to develop his thoracic sling, to lift and to stabilise his own rotation (all horses rotate in the ribcage, we want to make sure it's as symmetrical and functionally correct as possible), if he doesn't he's going to be more not less vulnerable than he was before from everything I hear, and from what logic tells me.

I completely agree, but in my experience the vast majority of people simply don’t stick to the plan.
I’ve had one client who did all her own rehab from KS surgery and she was absolutely to the letter diligent. She was amazing and the mare came back ten times stronger.
but on the whole, people seem to take short cuts and as you know, there’s no such thing as a shortcut in rehab work!

Like I said, there's a long list of requirements for being able to DIY, it works best for those that develop their understanding and therefore a love of groundwork and helping their horse to be a better horse, not just get them ready for the next competition. But I see a lot of horses go backwards when they come back from residential rehab too - the programme worked, but the owner never truly bought in to what the horse would need on an ongoing basis, and so wouldn't realise when they'd gone a step too far with the compromises forced on most of us with limited time and money. For instance ending up with a trainer that values "forwards at all costs" over stability and correct movement patterns...

 

[milliepops]

My friend had a lot of problems but not soundness ones. She rode him in draw reins with gag bits and a very tight drop nsoeband. She struggled to even to canter him. He used to stand in the stable with no hay all day and rarely got turned out. He was ridden so hollow and borderline rolkur. He had a very short choppy movement.

When I got him, I stripped it back to basics and put him in a simple snaffle with no flash. I did get his SI injected at this point as a recommendation. It took a while but after a few weeks the difference was amazing. He would canter around nice and round and steady, not perfect but a far cry from the short hollow overbend canter he used to do.

while none of the previous ridden work sounds exactly optimum... i do think that when you (one!) make wholesale changes to a horse's way of going that can be a bit of a trigger to make the wheels come off. it seems counterintuitive that you can improve a horse and then their body falls apart but i think they can really make use of compensations to deal with physical things and it just hides the problems from view. particularly if you are riding with lots of strong equipment which mask the true feel to the rider.

In the past I have had 2 horses objectively improve their way of going from when i got them, and then fall apart physically because i had taken away their crutches. yours may be similar. I am now very wary of taking on a horse that needs a major change to the way it is ridden because of this. Small changes... ok. Complete about turn - i would be concerned about how the horse's body will respond and what was hiding underneath the incorrect way of going. I'm just sharing as an illustration of how you can be doing all the right things and end up with a confusing result.

 

[ycbm]

This surgery was the ligament snip - a considerably less invasive procedure than the bone shave with a high success rate,

Success rate long term isn't being recorded, I don't think. I know of quite a few failures.

Less invasive? Not really, just less of an external hole.

My horse during the first one of 5. I would never have another horse done.

 

[Squeak]

Both the horse I know who worked well had no behaviour issues linked to diagnosis showed hyoid discomfort because they drew their tongues back .

GS would you be able to expand on this at all? I'm intrigued as I used to know a mare that did this with her tongue when stressed. Are you saying that the ones who had KS but worked properly didn't show any other symptoms apart from drawing their tongues back? Which they do to show hyoid discomfort?

 

[Goldenstar]

This surgery was the ligament snip - a considerably less invasive procedure than the bone shave with a high success rate, I would not have put him through the bone shave after what he has been through. The recovery period is significantly shorter for the snip. Horse's are sedated for the procedure rather than GA.

I know this and I also know it produces very very varied results , it acts like Neurectomy and that makes it difficult to predict the outcome .
I would be thinking is the outburst that had linked to nerves returning to function ,this could produce bizarre sensations it’s bad enough for humans after surgery horses can’t understand .

 

[sbloom]

I know this and I also know it produces very very varied results , it acts like Neurectomy and that makes it difficult to predict the outcome .
I would be thinking is the outburst that had linked to nerves returning to function ,this could produce bizarre sensations it’s bad enough for humans after surgery horses can’t understand .

It could equally be a nerve impingement, another part of the overall picture and movement patterns etc, but be that same, sharp nerve pain reaction. I wonder that, if it was more directly related to the surgery, that more horses would show this in their recovery period.

 

[Goldenstar]

GS would you be able to expand on this at all? I'm intrigued as I used to know a mare that did this with her tongue when stressed. Are you saying that the ones who had KS but worked properly didn't show any other symptoms apart from drawing their tongues back? Which they do to show hyoid discomfort?

Yes the both worked showed no poor behaviour in work except tongue acrobatics.
Three muscles attach the hyoid .
This is why we can influence the horse so easily with the bit , it’s why when the horse relaxes in its back the contact feels better .
The muscle that is the canary for upper ( top line ) back pain is the occiptohyoid is at the end of a system of muscles and fasciae running all the way to the hind leg , the mouth has link to the hind leg any form of issue in back can show at the mouth and in irregularity behind
It’s part of the immensely complicated system that makes up the horses top line once anything starts to make it malfunction all sorts of issues spring up.
I think this is were PSD starts with back pain perhaps minor , tightening muscles and
Stopping the fasciae running smoothly the horse compensates over using the suspensories.

 

[sbloom]

They are so complex, agreed, and it's almost pointless to try and figure out where it started if you're working holistically. A horse with an overdeveloped underneck always has a compromised psoas as an example, and how many horses are even slightly over developed, unable to do their day to day stuff without having to engage the brach., a muscle that is required only for flight, and shouldn't be used for day to day balancing. We have the horse use the wrong muscles without realising and in this case we're massively affecting the hind end directly.

This video on fascia is in the BTMM masterclass as one of the prep reading/watching:

 

[Squeak]

Yes the both worked showed no poor behaviour in work except tongue acrobatics.
Three muscles attach the hyoid .
This is why we can influence the horse so easily with the bit , it’s why when the horse relaxes in its back the contact feels better .
The muscle that is the canary for upper ( top line ) back pain is the occiptohyoid is at the end of a system of muscles and fasciae running all the way to the hind leg , the mouth has link to the hind leg any form of issue in back can show at the mouth and in irregularity behind
It’s part of the immensely complicated system that makes up the horses top line once anything starts to make it malfunction all sorts of issues spring up.
I think this is were PSD starts with back pain perhaps minor , tightening muscles and
Stopping the fasciae running smoothly the horse compensates over using the suspensories.

Thank you GS, that's really interesting. I'm not sure if it was the case for the horse I knew but always useful to know and shows how important correct bit fit etc is too.

 

[brighteyes]

Yes the both worked showed no poor behaviour in work except tongue acrobatics.
Three muscles attach the hyoid .
This is why we can influence the horse so easily with the bit , it’s why when the horse relaxes in its back the contact feels better .
The muscle that is the canary for upper ( top line ) back pain is the occiptohyoid is at the end of a system of muscles and fasciae running all the way to the hind leg , the mouth has link to the hind leg any form of issue in back can show at the mouth and in irregularity behind
It’s part of the immensely complicated system that makes up the horses top line once anything starts to make it malfunction all sorts of issues spring up.
I think this is were PSD starts with back pain perhaps minor , tightening muscles and
Stopping the fasciae running smoothly the horse compensates over using the suspensories.

I've been looking for this line of reasoning. Long ago I heard the postulation from somewhere, that issues in the mouth when ridden stemmed from pain from behind, probably referred through or manifested also in back pain.