Desperate to identify this neuro problem - please help

This will sound nuts but I heard of something similar in cattle as a result of lead poisoning, which was from the cows licking crusty old paint. Lead can have a neurological effect that causes ataxia. Just a thought.
 
For the past 3 weeks I have had him on an EMPS diet but there is no improvement so far.


Until I read this, I was going to suggest looking at the diet. What are you feeding?
 
Thank you Amos will update with blood results. Have asked the vet about EHV as well.

Wagtail and charlie76 I will keep the SI in mind. I spoke with the vet today about other possibilities like sacroiliac and she said that ideally she would like a scintigraphy done to get a clearer picture on all of that, but it would tell us nothing about the neuro problems (or if there are neuro problems) so still in two minds about whether to put him through it. I will lunge him everyday now until I can video the collapsing hind happening really clearly.

SadKen: thank you, I will mention it to the vet.

Pearlsasinger: Before the problems he was on Alpha A Oil, Farrier's Formula, Cool Calm and Collected and maybe small amounts of pony nuts and very rarely (winter) Calm and Condition. However this last winter he's not had any pony nuts or Calm and Condition because he's not been doing enough hard work. I think he looks really fat because he's lost his abdominal muscles and his belly hangs so much because when you feel him you can clearly feel the ribs. Until recently he was on ad lib low energy hay, now just grass. With the EPMS diet he is on Alpha, extra oil, Vit E and Selenium supplement and COol Calm and Collected.
 
A agree could be hind suspensory problem. Might be worth trying thermal imagaing of the whole body without saying you have any concerns and see what shows up.

My girl had been of two lameness assessments because I just knew she didn't feel right although fine at vets. Thermal imaging showed heat in her front heels so we had a starting point and after an MRI scan we had a diagnosis.

Once you know what you are delaing with it's much easier. Good luck :)
 
If you can read up on shivers ,we had a horse in our yard with the same symptoms as your horse ,he had difficulty being shod,and would quite often fall over in the field and in his stable , he was a warm blood ,and he was a confirmed shiverer ,I am not sure how this is diagnosed, but worth asking the vet ,I hope you find an answer ,he is a lovely horse .
 
Thanks Tiffany will keep the suspensories in mind. Not sure if anyone does thermal imaging in France, but will look into it.

Thanks shergar. He doesn't show any neuro symptoms at the vets which is very frustrating as they always set the (possible) neuro symptoms aside. However he is getting worse overall so something is not being treated.

I keep forgetting to say he has one more (possible) symptom: he doesn't drop his penis when he urinates. This has been going on for a while, at least 6 months, so he urinates from inside his sheath. The vet examined him under sedation and thought everything felt normal but could this link to other things? Could he have a penile cancer that has spread and is causing odd other symptoms? It should have shown on x-ray though.
 
God- how worrying for you BB :(

Really sorry to read this. There is definitely something very wrong, I really would keep on and on at the vets and videoing to see if you can capture him collapsing etc.

Sorry- I have no ideas as to what it could be but really hope you find some answers. Does he seem well and bright and happy in himself otherwise?
 
Sorry no ideas, but just wanted to say how impressed I am with you dealing with all this in French! I have a French degree but wouldn't know where to start with veterinary terms -I struggle enough with them in English! I hope you find the answers soon.
 
The mare I had whose symptoms weren't exactly the same but certainly had some similarities and developed over years was eventually found to be completely intolerant of refined sugar and all cereals. She could eat alfalfa with no problems and was fine with Speedibeet/Alphabeet. We have a problem with a suddenly lacking in energy oldie and I think her problem is caused by soya oil, as we had to change her dried grass, owing to supply problems. Have you taken him off everything except hay at any point?
 
Perfect_Pirouette: Thank you. He is OKish. He doesn't want to take the bit which is not like him at all and I think it's because he is in pain when he works. He seems happy in the field. Today he was flighty and spooky on the lunge, no evidence of the collapsing and nothing like Friday's video where he looked very lame on both hinds (video battery run out so no video - sod's law!).

annagain: they've passed me onto the vet who studied in the US so between French and English we make do!

Pearlsasinger: he's never been just on hay, although he has been just on grass and a tiny amount of Alpha A and Cool Calm and Collected during the summers in the past.
 
What a shame for you, he looks so lovely. I agree with most of the previous posters that it could well be a combination of suspensories, SI, KS, etc. But, on the parasite-type line, have your vets checked for lyme disease? We had a lovely TB at one of our yard's who contracted it and had the most peculiar set of symptoms, including ataxia and stilted gaits. Good luck sorting him out!
 
Booboos said:
Thanks Tiffany will keep the suspensories in mind. Not sure if anyone does thermal imaging in France, but will look into it.

Thanks shergar. He doesn't show any neuro symptoms at the vets which is very frustrating as they always set the (possible) neuro symptoms aside. However he is getting worse overall so something is not being treated.

I keep forgetting to say he has one more (possible) symptom: he doesn't drop his penis when he urinates. This has been going on for a while, at least 6 months, so he urinates from inside his sheath. The vet examined him under sedation and thought everything felt normal but could this link to other things? Could he have a penile cancer that has spread and is causing odd other symptoms? It should have shown on x-ray though.
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Now that COULD be a neurological symptom. I'd be looking at his lower back.
 
wyrdsister thank you. No they have not mentioned lyme, I will ask them. Would it show up on a normal blood test or does it need a specialist test?

fatpiggy, we've x-rayed all the back and no impingement is evident, what else should we look at?

Thanks MrsM.

This is him today, no collapse but what do you think in comparison to Wednesday (very short video, thank you so much for taking the time to look at all this!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDBcSKklQ8w&feature=youtu.be
 
As I recall it's a bit of a nightmare to diagnose. HH did an article on it that explains some of the possible tests. My friend's horse only had some of the symptoms on that list, but it did turn out to be lyme disease. It may not be relevant in your case, of course, but it's another possibility you could ask about if you're in an area where there's a risk or he could have been exposed previously (the symptoms can drag on for years).
 
For a really easy thing to do while you are trying to organise various tests, I suggest that you take him off all feed except hay and grass. No supplements, no treats no 'hard' feed of any sort and no alfalfa. If feed is a problem it is likely that you will see an improvement within a few days and if no improvement in 3 weeks, you will know that feed is not a problem.

I do hope that this is the answer to your problems and if not wish you success in finding the cause.

If you would like further details of my horse's problems, feel free to PM me.
 
That is quite interesting that he does not drop his penis to urinate ,when the vet examined him was he sedated I remember the story of a horse with a large bean and the fact that is was painful , he had not had his sheath cleaned for two years. Does your horse pass urine full flow ,my friends horse never dropped his penis and he just dribbled urine ,he had bladder stones ,and they made him reluctant to go forward as he was in pain. I am not sure if this helps ,but ask your vet .
 
He's rather lovely - have a soft spot for greys. It is strange that he gets worse with the work.

Have you tried thermal imaging as I've found this a brilliant means of identifying hot spots of inflammation - maybe before and after work images to see where the changes occur.

Someone who will come out to you is ideal.
 
the thing you need to look at is no matter what the problem is what is the outcome likely to be? Drugs won't fix it as they've tried most. Surgery isn't an option by the sounds of it and even were it, the symptoms yuo are describing do not sound like a viable surgery. So what is left? You just need to be realistic I think about where you are going with this. He is unlikely to be ridden again I would say and you need to examine if he is going to be field sound i'm afraid or safe to be in the field. I obviously don't know him but that would be my take, does it really matter what it is when you might be putting him through a lot of tests for a pretty sure poor prognosis?
 
wyrdsister: I read a bit about lyme disease and he's never been anywhere near sheep. There aren't even sheep in this whole area we are at, but I will mention it to the vet thank you.

Pearlsasinger: I hope you found a solution for your horse. I am reluctant to take him off the EPMS diet as so far it is the best fit for the neuro symptoms and I can't take the chance of not trying this out as it is a possible treatment for what looks like a desperate case.

shergar: he urinates full flow. He never dropped his penis even sedated. The vet said it was clean and there wasn't much to clean but she did it anyway.

Tnavas: thank you that is very kind of you. Sadly I don't think they do thermal imagining here, but I am not sure it would show neuro problems anyway.

SusieT: I completely take on board your point and the reason I haven't considered the KS surgery and I am ambivalent about the scintigraphy is exactly that I don't want to needlessly torture him. However there are two considerations for still trying to get to the bottom of the neuro issues. One is that it could be treatable, like the EPMS which was a suggestion by a forum member and I wouldn't have known about it had I not been lucky enough to come across this person while chating about R online. The other is that if the cause is either infectuous or toxic it could be a danger to my other horses. One avenue we are looking into is a toxic plant currently causing similar neuro issues in horses in the area - the government report has only just gone out to vets but again thanks to online friends I knew about it for two weeks. The fit is relatively good (although not as good as EPMS) but we can't find the plant anywhere on our land. My point is that I feel it's worth pushing a bit more at this stage because there is still possible benefit from having an answer. In terms of drugs he has only had steroid injections and steroids IV, so no antibiotics or anything else.
 
Im sorry im not sure if it has already been said but i'd consider asking for a referral to the AHT, specifically to see Sue Dyson- especially if you are insured. I think she would be the best person to get to the bottom of this. They can do scintigraphy there, and also MRI.
Best of luck and I really do feel for you
 
Zargon_91 said:
Im sorry im not sure if it has already been said but i'd consider asking for a referral to the AHT, specifically to see Sue Dyson- especially if you are insured. I think she would be the best person to get to the bottom of this. They can do scintigraphy there, and also MRI.
Best of luck and I really do feel for you
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Im sorry I didnt read you were in france :(
Perhaps email Dyson? She really is the leading specialist in subclinical lameness probably in europe
 
Zargon_91: no problem! If we were in the UK we'd be at one of the (many) top centres like a shot! To be fair the specialist vets here are good and have forwarded his history to colleagues in the US but so far they have focused on the KS issues. I think they saw the hind limb problems as a result of muscle weakness, but it is now apparent that this is the more pressing symptom. It was there first and it is deteriorating rapidly so the KS problem is theoretical really unless the neuro is somehow addressed.

Dizzydancer: Thank you. It's Hypocheris Radicata. It looks similar to the dandellion (but it is not the dandellion so don't panic!), it's palatable and safely eaten by humans, but toxic to horses. It causes hind limb ataxia like stringhalt so not exactly what R has. There have been sixty something cases in France with almost half in the Midi-Pyrenees (where we are). There is no specific test for it as the toxin has not been identified yet and treatment is removal from pasture. In early stages there is the possibility for recovery.
 
Booboos said:
Pearlsasinger: I hope you found a solution for your horse. I am reluctant to take him off the EPMS diet as so far it is the best fit for the neuro symptoms and I can't take the chance of not trying this out as it is a possible treatment for what looks like a desperate case.
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Yes, we did, thanks, although she was within days of pts aged 12. We only fed her on hay/grass/Speedibeet/alfalfa, made sure that she NEVER had even a tiny mount of refined suger or cereal and she was fine. She lived for another 12 yrs until she had a stroke aged 24. What does Cool Calm and Collected contain?
 
That's a great outcome, I am so glad you found what was making her so poorly!

CCC is a vitamin supplement, it has vitamins D, B, Calcium and Sodium listed as active ingredients. He's been on it for years and years and it seems to help a lot with his (normal) spookiness.

The only food problem I have ever noticed with him is that barley tends to make him loopy.
 
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