Desperately seeking clarity regarding towing s

[robthecob]

I know it's a dull subject but it's one that I don't seem to be able to gather any information on from t'interweb.

So it sounds like a simple enough question.. Can I tow legally and safely In my current vehicle a vauxhall insignia 2ltr diesel Eco?

I spoke to vauxhall who said yes then rang a trailer company who said they didn't think so :-/ then spoke to some friends who said no due to the fact that to be road legal the car needs to be able to tow the trailer fully laden even though I would only ever actually be looking to take one long 16.2 600kg in say an ifor 503..

So Is it possible, is it legal and most importantly is it safe? Selling said car and replacing with 4x4 is not an option as I don't own it (company car, not stolen don't worry).

 

[PaddyMonty]

I spoke to vauxhall who said yes then rang a trailer company who said they didn't think so :-/ then spoke to some friends who said no due to the fact that to be road legal the car needs to be able to tow the trailer fully laden even though I would only ever actually be looking to take one long 16.2 600kg in say an ifor 503..

Provided you passed your test pre 97 or have taken your trailer test then friends are wrong. The car only needs to be rated to tow what it is actually towing. The confusion arises when people full in the group who passed test post 97 but not taken trailer test. In this cae the towing vehicle must be rated to tow max laden weight of trailer.

If you have the trailer licence (pre 97 or trailer test) then you only need two pieces of info, 1) max permissable towing capacity of car and 2) laden weight of trailer with your horse in it. If 2 is less than 1 then you are legal.

 

[ihatework]

A quick google shows the Insignia has a tow capacity of around 1600kg (you will need to check your exact vehicle spec).

You say you have a 503 ... I didn't think that was an ifor model? the 403 is the single and the 505 the small double?

If the 403 (single) then that has a 1600kg capacity and yes you should be legal, although I'm not convinced I'd want to tow a 16.2hh in that set up.

If 505 then you are on more dodgy ground and I personally wouldn't risk it.

 

[robthecob]

I have no trailer but actually mean 506 as said horse is loooonng. I also passed my test post 1997 so can't tow until I have taken a trailer test. I am really just scoping out the easiest way to get on the road and coming to the conclusion that there is no easy way if you passed your test after 1997 and a big horse..

 

[FigJam]

For those with a B+E licence, there is no correlation between tow car rating and gross weight of trailer, as Juno says.

However, a 506 weighs 920kg unladen according to IW docs, so add in your horse and you will be getting very close to your car's capacity. This may not be an issue in terms of actual towing (eg if engine powerful enough, it may feel fine), but you may find yourself burning through clutch/brakes/suspension parts rapidly.

I towed my 15.2 in a single trailer (IW 401) with a 130bhp 2.0tdci Mondeo (rated to tow 1800kg) and it towed brilliantly, no problems up/down hills, along M-way etc, however it did need parts replaced much more frequently than a car designed for towing with larger tow rating would have done.

 

[Llanali]

The idea that the car must be capable of towing the fully laden trailer weight, irrespective of what you actually have in it is rubbish, and comes from confusion with tractor units and hgv artic trailers, where this is the case. In your case, you must simply bot exceed 1600kg, as this is the weight your car can legally tow- as ihatework says, acc to google- figjam is quite correct in that you will be close to the limit.

 

[popsdosh]

There is some confusion here Vosa can do nothing about an overloaded or inadequate towing vehicle but will let you go and next thing you will be stopped by a police car as the police will prosecute you for being unsafe.Also if you tow over the manufacturers limit you will find you have no insurance.
I dont personally care what the max permissible towing weight is as a rule of thumb I would not tow a trailer that weighed more than 75% of the towing vehicles kerb weight the risk of overturn is to great.If the police prosecute you they will bring up this ratio in court to prove you were unsafe.

 

[robthecob]

A single trailer iw 401 / 403 unladen weighs 720 which would pull me again away from the limits... I know they are not in favour with everyone tho and second hand ones seem harder to find..

I appreciate the wear and tear on the car would be higher too, I guess that would need to be addressed with the leasing company my car is through along with insurance too as I doubt my current company insurance would cover towing.. This does however seem to be the quickest and cheapest way to get on the road..

Tow bar 400 (quoted through vauxhall ouch)
Trailer 3k
Insurance
It sure seems to beat the running costs of a 7.5t and the initial costs of buying a 3.5t that I would actually be happy to travel my girl in xxx

 

[robthecob]

Whoops on the kisses, not concentrating!

So the kerb weight I believe of the insignia is 1540 75% of which would be 1155 which pushes it close to the limit again... As horse and single trailer would way around 1270 :-/

 

[Ginn]

Another thing re insurance - my insurance will not cover me if the maximum gross weight of the trailer exceeds the maximum authorised towing capacity of the car.

i.e. The maximum towing capacity of my car is 2800kg and the max gross weight of my trailer is 2700kg so I'm covered but my mums car is only authorised to tow 2000kg so our insurance will not cover us should we have an accident towing the trailer, even if its laden weight comes in at under 2000kg. Does that make any sense???

It may be that different insurers have different policies but make sure you check as you wouldn't want it to become invalidated due to weights...

 

[Meandtheboys]

Just check with your employers as you may find you do not have correct insurance in place...also check you employers contract with the leasee company on towbar restrictions etc

 

[robthecob]

Yes your both right, I would be peeved if I paid out all that to find that I had been fined by the lease company too.. I figured all that would be dependant on whether it was actually possible to legally and safely tow with said car

 

[FigJam]

The "rule" relating to % of kerbweight is also a bit of an urban myth- it was a recommendation that the caravan club made and I'm quite sure a Defender pulling a 510/511 with 2 horses on board wouldn't fit into it... but would you say it would be struggling to tow safely?!

Obviously the lower the load being towed and higher the weight of tow car the better, but again there are no rules or laws regarding these relative weights unless you are towing with a B entitled licence rather than B+E.

As for single trailers, mine is great, only 30cm narrower than a 505, so not an unstable "wardrobe on wheels", same width as tow car so follows it's tracks (no clipping kerbs and easy to gauge narrow gaps as if car fits... trailer does too!) and 1.5 x the space for horse compared to one partition in a double trailer. (plus Hopalong knows no one else can get in to steal her haynet! ) I got mine second hand (but still a new-ish model, was only 3yrs old when I bought it) and won't be swapping it unless I had two horses needing towed.

 

[robthecob]

Cheers everyone, think ill give the leasing company a call today...

 

[Naryafluffy]

You would need to check your licence categories, category B allows Motor vehicles with a MAM of up to 3,500 kg, no more than eight passenger seats, with or without a trailer - weighing no more than 750 kg
17*

B
As category B but with a trailer weighing more than 750 kg. The total weight of the vehicle and the trailer together can’t weigh more than 3,500 kg. The weight of the trailer, when fully loaded, can’t weigh more than the unladen weight of the vehicle

The term maximum authorised mass (MAM) means the total weight of the vehicle plus the maximum load it can carry safely.

Haven't found anyone that passed the test after January 1997 that can tow a horse trailer without sitting another test.

Here is the link to the categories http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022547

looking at a vauxhall insignia 2lt it's mam is 2285kg, leaving just over 1tonne for the trailer + the horse, so if the trailer weight unladen is 920kg that only leaves 295kg for the horse and your horse is 600kg then you are going over what your licence categories allow. The car is capable of towing, but the licence categories prevent it

 

[robthecob]

It's so confusing...

I can't tow off my current licence anyway as I passed post 1997 and have taken no additional tests... I never actually thought I would be able to tow off my current license anyway but thought I could take a trailer test? Although in all honesty would just do the test for the 7.5t so that I could drive both. Is that right if I did the 7.5t test would it give me the catagorys I need to tow too?

To be honest I think I'm gonna go with the two skate boards and a towing rope... Who fancies coming on dragons den with me?

 

[robthecob]

Looking at the link above - cheers for that NF.. A 7.5t would be cat c and a trailer weighing more than 750 is cat E..

 

[AandK]

Looking at the link above - cheers for that NF.. A 7.5t would be cat c and a trailer weighing more than 750 is cat E..

Correct! You will need to take a test for each catagory.

I did the B+E test last year, its not that bad. As long as you are well practiced at the reversing, you will be fine!

 

[robthecob]

A&K- On cat b&e that is just for towing is that correct.. Is it also right that if I took C which if
I have worked it out right is what you need to drive above 3.5t would that automatically give me B&E for towing?

 

[FigJam]

Although in all honesty would just do the test for the 7.5t so that I could drive both. Is that right if I did the 7.5t test would it give me the catagorys I need to tow too?

If you are going to do a lorry test, you are best doing the HGV test as this will qualify you for a wider range of lorries (since people with pre-97 licences favour 7.5t or smaller, you can get a slighter bigger lorry cheaper?) and the actual test/cost isn't massively different I don't think.

But unless you do articulated lorry test, you still cannot tow car + trailer! Your licence must have "+E" entitlement somewhere for trailer towing.

Towing a horse on B licence is possible, but needs careful balance of tow car/trailer/horse weights! I used Mondeo (1505kg kerb weight, 2035kg max gross weight) with single trailer (780kg unladen weight, downrated to 1450kg max gross weight leaving 670kg for 15.2 horse- plenty!) and this meant the two gross weights were less than 3.5t (3485kg!) and car's kerb weight more than trailer max gross weight, so all perfectly legal.

 

[Nic]

If you are going to do a lorry test, you are best doing the HGV test as this will qualify you for a wider range of lorries (since people with pre-97 licences favour 7.5t or smaller, you can get a slighter bigger lorry cheaper?) and the actual test/cost isn't massively different I don't think.

As FJ says, as long as you are over 21, if considering your lorry test you would be better off doing your HGV test. Same cost and very little difference in training & test. As a result our 14t lorry with living is the same unladen weight & same length as most 7.5t but we can legally carry 3 big horses. It was also an awful lot cheaper.

 

[robthecob]

I see, wow I can't wait to drive an articulated lorry.. :-/ So the cheapest way to do it really is to either get a lighter horse or car and tow a single trailer of my current license by not exceeding 3.5 ton combined weight or forget towing and take my c license to drive a lorry above 7.5 ton.. I would feel cheated taking the trailer test but still not being able to drive a lorry but I don't have a spare 1500 to take the artic lorry test..

 

[AandK]

A&K- On cat b&e that is just for towing is that correct.. Is it also right that if I took C which if
I have worked it out right is what you need to drive above 3.5t would that automatically give me B&E for towing?

No, unfortunately not.

Cat B+E is needed to tow with a vehicle <3.5t. (see below link for clarification on what you can tow using a cat B licence)
Cat C1 is to drive a vehicle between 3.5t and 7.5t, with a trailer <750kg. Cat C1+E is to tow a trailer >750kg with vehicle between 3.5t and 7.5t.
Cat C is to drive a vehicle >7.5t, with a trailer <750kg. Cat C+E is to tow a trailer >750kg with vehicle >7.5t.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022547

 

[Nic]

For a trailer it would be your B+E, for HGV & Trailer it would be C1 then C1+E. You have to pass your C1(Rigid HGV) before you can do your C1+E(artic). So if you have no intention of driving a lorry do your B+E. I have no intention of driving a trailer at the mo so did my HGV.

Clear as mud?!

 

[robthecob]

God sorry I bet your all well bored of my musings but once I have it all in my head organised and correct I promise to never ever bring it up again...

Right horse is 620kg 1 horse trailer is 767kg car is 1540kg kern weight

So total weight is 2927 under the 3.5 kg cut off and the horse and trailer weigh less than the keen weight of the car.. I'm legal right?

 

[lucemoose]

if you are looking to tow, in all honesty I would just do the trailer test instead of trying to find a way around it?

 

[Nic]

if you are looking to tow, in all honesty I would just do the trailer test instead of trying to find a way around it?

I think RC intends to but was enquiring on the towing weights re their car?

 

[FigJam]

God sorry I bet your all well bored of my musings but once I have it all in my head organised and correct I promise to never ever bring it up again...

Right horse is 620kg 1 horse trailer is 767kg car is 1540kg kern weight

So total weight is 2927 under the 3.5 kg cut off and the horse and trailer weigh less than the keen weight of the car.. I'm legal right?

No... you need to know your car's maximum authorised mass (gross weight/MAM), add that to your trailer's MAM and the two combined have to be less than 3.5t as well as the trailer's MAM being less than car's kerb weight.

It sounds like you either need to do your lorry (best doing C (HGV) as it is largely the same cost/test as C1 (7.5t)) or towing (B+E) test, but doing one of these doesn't qualify you for the other.

 

[robthecob]

Moose:- I'm not necessarily looking for a way around it, I never thought there was a way around it.. No intention of putting my horse it license at risk, however.....

Why would I take a towing test if I could tow legally and safely tow without having too.. Would you pay £20 for something that only cost £10?

This thread just highlights the complications around the license classifications and towing. Like figjam I believe that I could tow my horse in a single trailer on my current license

 

[birchave0]

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=426847

worth a read