devastated by worms

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iv just lost a very special mare and her unborn foal to red worm infestation.
she was wormed 3 times last year with pyratape p last then had a faecal worm count done in june by westgate labs which was negetive.
her pm showed cause of death was a severe small red worm infestation.
im devastated. how did i let this happen?
 
I'm sorry I can't really help you, although this worries me as I rely on the test by Westgate - although I have them done every three months so hopefully a pattern should emerge even if one count didn't show anything.

I just wanted to say though how sorry I was to hear your news - you must be utterly distraught. Can your vet shed any light on what has gone so horribly wrong?

Sending lots of hugs, x.
 
I had a nil count from Westgate & my horse ended up in Newmarket with colic with high worm burden! Won't use them now. He came thro but now vets do mine.
 
if it was encysted red worm, they don't show up on any worm count. You should always worm for that anyway.....

I do worry that people put 100% faith in worm counts. they are only a sample.... if you pick up one piece of poo that does not mean that another piece may be full of eggs..... eggs do not appear evenly throughout.

so sorry about your horse :(
 
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Sorry to hear about your mare.

I'm pretty certain encysted red worm does not show up in worm counts (encysted red worm isn't mature so doesn't lay eggs, worm counts only count eggs in the sample)
And I don't think Pyratape P treats the encysted stages of red worm...
 
funnily enough I have just been discussing this with my vet after a long period of nil worm counts I do just worry that something awful like this might happen. I considering doing a five day panacur guard for everyone just in case.
Is there any way to test for encysted worms ?.
 
Goldenstar said:
funnily enough I have just been discussing this with my vet after a long period of nil worm counts I do just worry that something awful like this might happen. I considering doing a five day panacur guard for everyone just in case.
Is there any way to test for encysted worms ?.
Click to expand...

Worm counts also don't show up tape worm which is also life threatening. You can blood test for it, or worm for it autumn/spring
 
That is so sad. I feel so so sorry for you, I can imagine you are devastated but it was a cruel turn of fate and not your fault. It has really made me think about the type of worming to use and maybe get vet to check too as I have broodmares.
 
I know you can blood test for tape worms but what about encysted red worms this came up as my vet was saying they have had three deaths since November from encysted red worms and that got me thinking .I don't know anything about the cases they could have been badly cared for as they do do welfare work.
 
No, unless there have been recent developments, there are no tests for Encysted Red Worm. You should always worm for it IMO. We do it this time of year.
 
I'm so sorry.

Our vet says he's lost 11 clients' horses to it in the last 12 months. Not neglected horses either, but well looked after, well cared for, much loved horses.

There is a lot of it about and since our experiences 12 months ago it scares the bejeezus out of me.
 
victoria1980x said:
Sorry to hijack the thread but are "Encysted Red Worm" the same as the small and large redworms that many wormers cover?
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Encysted redworm are immature versions - they encyst in the gut lining and emerge when the conditions are right. Often when the weather warms up they all emerge at once and if there is a high burden then can cause colic, lethargy, ataxia and death :(

I had a young gelding who had this. I was lucky with him as we noticed he was off colour and vet immediately guessed what it was due to a sketchy worming history.
 
Its a bummer - really sorry to hear of your loss OP :(

My big Fuzzy was clear (lab tested) a month after arrival, so this was end of November 2010.
I wormed for red worm as a routine measure as they are NOT tested in worm counts - and was SO glad that this was a big solid horse as there were 100's in 2 piles of droppings about 10 - 15 hours later! Both literally covered with small redworms pointing out of each nugget :eek: vet was interested to show one of the students he had with him & asked me to keep the piles till the next day (puke!) in tubs for him.
Repeated the dose again 4 weeks later & there was a small amount only, in only 1 pile of droppings.
After chatting to vet, decided that this had 'probably' done the trick.

This winter have done the same and all clear.

I have always wormed regardless for red worm in November or December and am so glad I still do this, as otherwise I dont like to think of the consequences.
 
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MissTyc said:
Encysted redworm are immature versions - they encyst in the gut lining and emerge when the conditions are right. Often when the weather warms up they all emerge at once and if there is a high burden then can cause colic, lethargy, ataxia and death :(

I had a young gelding who had this. I was lucky with him as we noticed he was off colour and vet immediately guessed what it was due to a sketchy worming history.
Click to expand...

thanks for this, would a wormer that worms for the redworm kill the encysted red worm as well?
 
Goldenstar said:
funnily enough I have just been discussing this with my vet after a long period of nil worm counts I do just worry that something awful like this might happen. I considering doing a five day panacur guard for everyone just in case.
Is there any way to test for encysted worms ?.
Click to expand...

So sorry to hear about your mare. It is an awful thing to happen. I also use Westgate and they mostly come back as negative. I do however worm with panacur equine guard or equest pramox once a year after the first Autumn frost just to get the encysted red worm and tapeworm that don't show up in the counts.
 
victoria1980x said:
thanks for this, would a wormer that worms for the redworm kill the encysted red worm as well?
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The only wormers that treat the encysted stage of small redworm (cyathastomes) is a single dose of Moxidectin (Equest) or a 5 day dose of Panacur Guard.

There is now widespread resistance to the active ingredient in Panacur Guard, so that is something to bear in mind when planning your worming programme.
 
its all my fault for not worming last month with eqvalan as usual, but she had huge amounts so may have been too late. she has always looked a bit wormy which is why i did a worm count, but after a clear test thought maybe the pregnancy was making her lose condition. i knew that tapeworm doesnt show in faecal tests but not encysted red worm. i kept horses for 20 years so im devastated cos its all down to bad management. apparently cos the winter has been so mild the worms are spreading on the land. plus cos she was young her immunity was low, and cos she was pregnant her immunity was even lower.
so please please learn from my big mistake and dont ever get sloppy with your worming programme.
all the ponies are now on a 5 day course of panacur and a dose of equest. and have to stay on equest for the next year at least - no rotation of wormers - as requested by the vet. you can blood test for tapeworm but no test except PM for encysted red worm.
the foal had died inside her for at least 5 days and as she couldnt abort it she had no chance of surviving.
i hope someone learns from my mistake x
 
What a sad story and I suspect more common than we realise. I was discussing worms briefly with my vet just last week and she said that the 5 day Panacur Guard was basically a waste time and money as there is huge resistance to it already. I remember that coming on the market, just before I bought my mare 16 years ago. Scarey thought. Personally I think thorugh poo-picking is the most important weapon we have. Shame two of the owners who share my field don't exactly agree.
 
I worm count after damn near losing my boy to colic after worming, he reaches very badly to chemicals. :-/
But nowadays I make an effort to take an entire poo and mix it up then take a sample from that rather than just picking a small piece.
 
Fatpiggy - the chemical in the 5 day guard is fenbendazole, ie plain old Panacur which has been around for donkeys ages. Back in '93 the stud I worked on had an issue with encysted redworm; we lost one filly and 5 day panacur saved several others, it was like a miracle. Treating with a 5 day course was quite revolutionary at that time, and we ended up with the panacur science geeks coming out to do some follow up. It wasn't long after that that they launched the 5 day guard, but as I say the chemical is exactly the same, just a cheaper way of buying it. One day of the 5 day guard is the same as one dose of 'normal' panacur.

They knew in '93 that there was already resistance to the fenbendazole family. But what do you do? It saved lives.... Then moxidectin came on the market but there is already anecdoctal evidence of resistance to that too.

Little did I know that 18 years later I would have another horrendous experience with encysted redworm, only this time there would be no miracle.
 
I was told that with fenbendazole the dose is crucial; it doesn't work well as a single dose but as a 5 day course it IS effective.
Wonder how to find out, as this is important.
 
Foxy1 - it has to be a five day course to deal with encysteds (we generally noticed a result by day 3) but a single dose works the same as normal fenbendazole. Because it is normal fenbendazole. One day's dose of fendendazole won't touch encysted worms, but it will act as a broad spectrum wormer against adult worms, albeit a wormer with a fairly high risk of resistance.

Really we need to save fenbendazole for treating encysteds, as you never know when you might be in the position where it is the only thing left in your armoury. When we lost the colt last year we were lucky in that the worms in his fieldmates, although resistant to moxidectin, weren't resistant to fenbendazole. On day three of the fenbendazole course they were spewing out immature redworm like it was going out of fashion, despite technically still being covered by their previous moxidectin. It undoubtably saved their lives.

With a five day course it's basically up to you whether you want to buy 5 syringes and use them day after day (which is exactly what we did with the sick fillies before 5 day guard), or get a 5 day guard.
 
EstherYoung said:
Foxy1 - it has to be a five day course to deal with encysteds (we generally noticed a result by day 3) but a single dose works the same as normal fenbendazole. Because it is normal fenbendazole. One day's dose of fendendazole won't touch encysted worms, but it will act as a broad spectrum wormer against adult worms, albeit a wormer with a fairly high risk of resistance.

Really we need to save fenbendazole for treating encysteds, as you never know when you might be in the position where it is the only thing left in your armoury. When we lost the colt last year we were lucky in that the worms in his fieldmates, although resistant to moxidectin, weren't resistant to fenbendazole. On day three of the fenbendazole course they were spewing out immature redworm like it was going out of fashion, despite technically still being covered by their previous moxidectin. It undoubtably saved their lives.

With a five day course it's basically up to you whether you want to buy 5 syringes and use them day after day (which is exactly what we did with the sick fillies before 5 day guard), or get a 5 day guard.
Click to expand...

Thanks yes I realise that, but was told it's effective at a high dose (ie over 5 days) and not as a single dose.
 
Borderreiver said:
Resistance to fenbendazole will vary.
How to find out if your horse has resistant worms, there is a post here: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Westgate-Labs-more-than-just-a-worm-count/145661218836446
Click to expand...

OP I am so sorry about your horse. Thank you for posting and reminding us.
Over the past few years I have worm counted at Abbey diagnostics usually <50, once with my vet after I knew my horse at redworm but I had treated it and the last few times with Westgate again <50 except for one of 800 in a pony who at 17 had never been wormed. I changed from Abbey as I was concerned if <50 was correct but as all my counts seem to come up with the same result I can only presume they are all reporting correctly what was found in one small sample of each horse's dung.

I wormed 3 months after the vet's worm count of <50 and the dung was like red spaghetti. Admitedly it was a relatively young newish horse who I realised had not made the acquaintance of wormers in the past.
I am not sure how confident I am in worm counts but will continue with them.
I do wonder though if red worm problems will get worse as people become over confident in negative worm counts.

Gill,
I have read your notes re PG. You recently recorded a count of 800 in my 17 pregnant mare. After PG and testing again the count was <50 so I can understand your facebook post, ie wormed and it was effective and presumably no resistance.

If I use PG for encysted (and I only use it annually on horses I daren't worm with equest) how do I know it is working if there were no worms on the previous worm counts? Is it just a case of keep testing and if future counts are <50 I can assume no PG resistance?
thanks for coming on this site BTW and supplying info.
 
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