Developing the frame

W

Walrus

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 January 2007
Messages
2,428
Visit site
We are starting to try and work my pony in a more 'up' frame (for want of a better phrase) as we move towards novice. I was just wondering how others found this development and what exercises and techniques you have used to develop the frame as you move up the levels. We have been given plenty of homework and have regular lessons but I was just interested in other people's experiences, or if anyone can recommend any good articles or books?

Thanks

:)
 
The more uphill frame comes through from the horse working more through from behind. the better the engagement and connection the lighter the forehand so you will need to focus on this.

I always start with suppleness, (both over the topline and through the sides), straightness and reaction to the aids as the first port of call for any horse. I use long and low, which, when achieved correctly, helps the horse mentally relax and physically stretch over the topline and starts the looseness through the back. Arena patterns with attention to detail then help the lateral suppleness and then later on lateral work. I am always assessing a good reaction to my aids. One touch of the leg and the horse goes and stays going until I ask for a different job/direction/exercise. A soft acceptance of the contact via a relaxed jaw.

When all this is in place a have a supple horse, crisply but calmly stepping forwards, swinging through the back to an elastic connection. Then its transitions.
 
Thank you, all makes sense and ties in with what we are attempting to do. My main issue is him getting tight and resistant in his neck and jaw, i keep moving him back down to try and relax everything and lateral work seems to free up his back and make everything softer and more supple. Transitions are an interesting on as he gets sharper off the leg but in quite a jumpy way and tends to get more excited and rushed as we do more and more of them. Not sure whether we need to keep doing so many they become boring!
 
My mare is the same, she has a tendency to become tense when I work her "up", so I will vary between "up" and "down".

Loads of transitions, even if they are wild! Loads of variations within a pace as well. I try to ignore the tenseness and work through it at bit until she settles and then I would allow her to work in a lower frame.
 
My coach has been determinedly drilling into me to follow the training scale! Simon Battram has beautifully described working on rhythm and then suppleness, the first two levels of the training scale. My coach has pointed out to me, that while we want the horse to be relaxed in the mind, and supple through the body, we also need them to have the strength to work into a higher frame. Working long and low is still a contact, and enough work will build up the top line and strength for the horse to carry more weight behind, and bring the contact up higher. She said that once a horse has built up the correct muscles, and with correct work, they will start to carry themselves in a higher frame anyway ��
 
Just a note - at Novice the judge will not be expecting to see an 'uphill' frame, a relaxed and consistent outline is far more important than being more 'up'. Working in a more uphill shape comes at the higher levels. This diagram highlights the frame against the scales of training nicely:
http://th03.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE...sage_in_drawings_by_arabian_alice-d67mvyx.jpg

Of course at Novice all the scales of training (bar collection) are relevant, but for a horse out competing at novice level I'd say the neck needs to be somewhere between 3 and 4. 'Up' is 6 and collection doesnt come in until Elementary (and even then you can get away with a neck at 4 on the diagram easily).

My trainer, who used to be very high up in the Spanish High School and has taught all sorts of clients right the way up to GP will always tell you the most important thing is relaxation in the neck - where it is placed should not be your focus as you will end up forcing it and developing incorrect muscles in the neck. Even with your best intentions you will end up using your hands too much to bring the neck up and this is a false outline, something a good judge will spot. Best to be relaxed, supple and free in the neck which will be far more beneficial to you when it comes to moving up the levels in the future.

Novice tests honestly do not require an uphill frame, they just require a consistent outline (i.e. the head not bobbing and the frame not varying through the transitions), and no tension through the neck.

However there is an exception to his (having not seen photos of your pony) - if your pony is built very downhill (i.e. front legs noticeably shorter than the hind legs) then the judge may comment, at any level, on needing to be more 'up' in front. But this is a conformation thing rather than something you can really overcome through schooling exercises. If your pony is built downhill then the best thing you can do is work on the back end, really getting your pony to use the hind legs and work over its back.

The lesson my trainer uses for relaxation in the neck is basically transitions - within the pace, in and out of the pace, and half transitions; using trot as the example (can do in canter also) you go into sitting trot from rising trot, prepare to walk but just before you would normally walk push back on into working trot again. So you are really getting the horse to sit and use its back end, then pushing on into the working pace to get the impulsion back. The more you do of all of these transitions, the more the horse has to use its back end and should in turn come off the forehand and relax the neck.

Working on bend and suppleness is another good one, a lot of the time when schooling we probably allow incorrect bend or too much straightness when really they should be around the leg. Change the bend at various points in your session, bend to the outside for a few strides, then straight, then bend to the inside. My trainer says you cant do too much of this, so whenever you can. Between getting the bend right and transitions you should find (providing the horse is forwards enough) the neck relaxing and you getting a softer more elastic contact.

At Novice I wouldnt be trying to achieve anything more than that with the neck, yes this would be the point (once you have achieved that) to bring the neck 'up' but it really is unnecessary at Novice. Once you've got that neck relaxed and the elastic contact, you should aim to achieve this in every schooling session and hopefully over time you'll get it quicker and quicker. You can then move on to schooling the movements required at Novice - counter canter being a tricky one that is worth practicing, especially because counter canter really helps with suppleness as well. Start introducing some walk to canters when the neck is sorted, again really gets the horse working from behind and using its hind quarters.

I do think too many dressage riders are so worried about what the neck is doing and getting this 'uphill' look that a fancy WB might have when really the focus should be the back end of the horse and suppleness. The neck 9 times out of 10 will develop of its own accord once you have the horse working properly from behind. This is why so many people are obsessed with gadgets and bits of tack to force the neck in, then when the gadget comes off they replace that with heavy hands that force the neck in and up. My equine physio echoes this, the neck more often than not is fine for a low level dressage horse, it is other areas that need the work before you can think about getting a more uphill frame for the higher levels.

Relax the neck, then move on and school the movements you need for Novice, working on suppleness and using the hind quarters more.
 
ALL of the Scales of Training are relevant to ALL levels.

Collection is required at Intro, Prelim and Novice but will be appropriate to the level of the horse's current training and ability, and the movement required.

Just because it's not listed as an 'official movement' doesn't mean it's not needed!
 
Thanks all - and thanks for the really interesting post kc100. I definitely am not expecting my pony to suddenly develop a super high frame and collection etc. That's why I used the "for want of a better phrase" really all we are doing at the moment is getting me to lift my hands slightly and also get my shoulders and head up and out of the way (I seem to have a fixation with staring at my pony's whither!) so he can hopefully, with time, lift his shoulders further and engage the back end more. We're using a lot of the exercises you mention which is good, esp the half transitions etc. And we are working on the novice moves as well - the strides of medium being our biggest challenge as we are quite small and stompy! I think we're heading in the right direction but i was just interested in other people's experience of moving up the levels etc. The diagrams are really useful as well - i really need to read more!

And to add - i think, looking at the diagrams, we are currently at 3 and aiming for 4 (that's about as 'up' as I was thinking at the moment!!)
 
meardsall_millie said:
ALL of the Scales of Training are relevant to ALL levels.

Collection is required at Intro, Prelim and Novice but will be appropriate to the level of the horse's current training and ability, and the movement required.

Just because it's not listed as an 'official movement' doesn't mean it's not needed!
Click to expand...

Sorry I think I worded it badly - not that collection isnt required, more that at Novice level the requirement is very minimal and to be honest no judge is looking for collection at Novice. I work at a competition venue, speaking to DR judges all the time, and I do think we have to be realistic, you can argue that because the scales of training apply to all levels in dressage then any horse should be showing an element of collection regardless of it being a required 'movement' - but is a judge, from Intro-Novice, looking for collection? No, because the paces are all working, medium or free. Therefore the other scales of training take priority for these levels. The frame at these levels does not need to be so advanced, the movements are not asking for collection - then factor in judges at these levels are told in their training to be encouraging to lower level riders to encourage more participation in the sport; collection is going to be the last thing on their minds at this point.

When reading various articles on the scales of training, all will agree (and all diagrams show) collection at the top of the pyramid, the ultimate goal for the dressage horse. Many writers on the subject also say "Collection is achieved through progressive, correct training". You cant expect a novice horse to have reached the 'ultimate goal', or to have had enough correct progressive training to achieve collection. Yes it will have been training for a few years, and sure it will be progressive, and hopefully correct - but it has not been training long enough working through the levels to achieve full collection.

This article, for me anyway, explains collection really well:
http://www.dressage-academy.com/collection.php

So I agree in the sense that all levels of training apply, but I do think we need to be realistic as dressage riders/competitors and work on what is most important for the horse in question (as all horses are different and find some aspects of the scales of training easier than others), and what is important to achieve a healthy happy horse that enjoys going out and competing. Working on collection and an uphill frame for Novice level (again just my opinion) would not achieve a happier healthier horse - in fact more likely to do more harm than good by being heavy handed to get that frame. It would also not help the OP if the pony has problems with relaxation in the neck and jaw, collection should come easier later in the pony's training once the OP has achieved relaxation in the neck.
 
Walrus said:
Thanks all - and thanks for the really interesting post kc100. I definitely am not expecting my pony to suddenly develop a super high frame and collection etc. That's why I used the "for want of a better phrase" really all we are doing at the moment is getting me to lift my hands slightly and also get my shoulders and head up and out of the way (I seem to have a fixation with staring at my pony's whither!) so he can hopefully, with time, lift his shoulders further and engage the back end more. We're using a lot of the exercises you mention which is good, esp the half transitions etc. And we are working on the novice moves as well - the strides of medium being our biggest challenge as we are quite small and stompy! I think we're heading in the right direction but i was just interested in other people's experience of moving up the levels etc. The diagrams are really useful as well - i really need to read more!

And to add - i think, looking at the diagrams, we are currently at 3 and aiming for 4 (that's about as 'up' as I was thinking at the moment!!)
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are on the right track then - it is just repetitive now I'm afraid, give it 6 weeks of doing what you are doing and see how different it feels (and looks) at the end of that period. If you can, get someone to take a picture/video of your schooling now and then do another set of photos at the end of 6 weeks, you should be able to see a difference in both your position and your pony's neck/frame. Before and afters really help to show you how far you have come!

Re. the medium strides, try not to worry about these too much. I find a lot of people worry about the mediums more than anything else at Novice, but they are one of the hardest things to train a horse to do because there needs to be a lot of work done on other areas before the mediums come good.

Whenever I watch a Novice test when I'm working, ALL horses & ponies do a better medium trot after they have done the canter work. Cant remember which test exactly but there is one Novice where you do a medium trot across the diagonal pre canter work, then the final medium trot across the diagonal on the other rein after the canter work. The one after the canter work is always significantly better, because the horse has loosened up a lot more, has more impulsion following the canter and has found a better rhythm. So I'd suggest (if your pony is fit enough) to spend a bit more time in canter in your schooling sessions, and especially when warming up for your competitions - have a big old canter around the menage (medium canter preferably!) to get some uumph and to help loosen up, then you should find the medium trot gets better.

Medium strides come from behind, the judge is looking for a lengthening in the stride rather than an increase in speed, so the horse needs to be using its back end to really give that push to get a longer stride. So all of the work suggested to help relax the neck, plus half halts (get your instructor to do a refresh session on these - we all think we know how to use them but often we are doing it wrong!) will help. Try other non-dressagey exercises to develop the back end like trot/canter poles, cavaletti, and some hill work out hacking if possible.

Medium strides are a very small element of the Novice test in comparison to the rest of the movements, I think suppleness really becomes a bigger factor at Novice as you have smaller circles and more half circles to deal with, plus counter canter and if I remember correctly at least one has a serpentine, another has a figure of 8 type movement with a change of leg through trot at X.....all of these require suppleness and balance, fluidity through the transitions if you are changing leg through trot. You'll find that as you become more established with the rest of the work at Novice the mediums will start to get easier - if you are getting 5's or 6's for the mediums I wouldnt worry too much for now as they will get better as time goes on.
 
kc100 said:
Just a note - at Novice the judge will not be expecting to see an 'uphill' frame, a relaxed and consistent outline is far more important than being more 'up'. Working in a more uphill shape comes at the higher levels. This diagram highlights the frame against the scales of training nicely:
http://th03.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE...sage_in_drawings_by_arabian_alice-d67mvyx.jpg

Of course at Novice all the scales of training (bar collection) are relevant, but for a horse out competing at novice level I'd say the neck needs to be somewhere between 3 and 4. 'Up' is 6 and collection doesnt come in until Elementary (and even then you can get away with a neck at 4 on the diagram easily).

My trainer, who used to be very high up in the Spanish High School and has taught all sorts of clients right the way up to GP will always tell you the most important thing is relaxation in the neck - where it is placed should not be your focus as you will end up forcing it and developing incorrect muscles in the neck. Even with your best intentions you will end up using your hands too much to bring the neck up and this is a false outline, something a good judge will spot. Best to be relaxed, supple and free in the neck which will be far more beneficial to you when it comes to moving up the levels in the future.

Novice tests honestly do not require an uphill frame, they just require a consistent outline (i.e. the head not bobbing and the frame not varying through the transitions), and no tension through the neck.

However there is an exception to his (having not seen photos of your pony) - if your pony is built very downhill (i.e. front legs noticeably shorter than the hind legs) then the judge may comment, at any level, on needing to be more 'up' in front. But this is a conformation thing rather than something you can really overcome through schooling exercises. If your pony is built downhill then the best thing you can do is work on the back end, really getting your pony to use the hind legs and work over its back.

The lesson my trainer uses for relaxation in the neck is basically transitions - within the pace, in and out of the pace, and half transitions; using trot as the example (can do in canter also) you go into sitting trot from rising trot, prepare to walk but just before you would normally walk push back on into working trot again. So you are really getting the horse to sit and use its back end, then pushing on into the working pace to get the impulsion back. The more you do of all of these transitions, the more the horse has to use its back end and should in turn come off the forehand and relax the neck.

Working on bend and suppleness is another good one, a lot of the time when schooling we probably allow incorrect bend or too much straightness when really they should be around the leg. Change the bend at various points in your session, bend to the outside for a few strides, then straight, then bend to the inside. My trainer says you cant do too much of this, so whenever you can. Between getting the bend right and transitions you should find (providing the horse is forwards enough) the neck relaxing and you getting a softer more elastic contact.

At Novice I wouldnt be trying to achieve anything more than that with the neck, yes this would be the point (once you have achieved that) to bring the neck 'up' but it really is unnecessary at Novice. Once you've got that neck relaxed and the elastic contact, you should aim to achieve this in every schooling session and hopefully over time you'll get it quicker and quicker. You can then move on to schooling the movements required at Novice - counter canter being a tricky one that is worth practicing, especially because counter canter really helps with suppleness as well. Start introducing some walk to canters when the neck is sorted, again really gets the horse working from behind and using its hind quarters.

I do think too many dressage riders are so worried about what the neck is doing and getting this 'uphill' look that a fancy WB might have when really the focus should be the back end of the horse and suppleness. The neck 9 times out of 10 will develop of its own accord once you have the horse working properly from behind. This is why so many people are obsessed with gadgets and bits of tack to force the neck in, then when the gadget comes off they replace that with heavy hands that force the neck in and up. My equine physio echoes this, the neck more often than not is fine for a low level dressage horse, it is other areas that need the work before you can think about getting a more uphill frame for the higher levels.

Relax the neck, then move on and school the movements you need for Novice, working on suppleness and using the hind quarters more.
Click to expand...

Great post ;)
 
A couple of comments to throw in the mix here.

The first one is that I do not use, teach or entirely agree with the scales of training. The first reason why is that there is absolutely no one method to train a horse. Of course there are certain givens - the horse comes first, the happy athlete etc but there are many roads to Rome and I actually believe there are different Romes as well.

The second reason I don't agree totally with the scales of training is the topic of straightness. You will not have a good degree of rhythm, suppleness and contact if the horse is crooked in the basic sense. Straightness, along with collection, is a sliding scale and as such is a continuous topic but basic level straightness needs to be addressed from day 1. If a horse is crooked, this means that one side of the body has the muscles contracted; the other side elongated. There will be no true swing over the back, suppleness or evenness of contact whilst this is the case.

I work on suppleness, straightness and reaction to the aids from the start. This lends itself to a horse in good balance and then you can start using the transition work etc to build the strength.

The second comment here is that riders should be focusing on the neck of the horse - along with the rest of the horse. I have found that riders gain their best results when they work the whole horse as opposed to focusing on one area alone. For example only focus on the head and neck at the expense of engagement and the rider will block the horse. Only focus on the hindlegs and leave the front door open and the energy will flood out the front. Always have a complete over view of the whole horses way of going; hind hoof to hand and all that's in-between.

A trot walk transition is the start of collection. This means that the hindleg steps through and under, carries weight and the horse changes gear. The other end of the scale in trot is piaffe - with a vast range in-between. Ride the trot to walk really well, even at intro level and you start you horse on the right path.
Just some musings on a wet windy day!!
 
Totally agree, thought the diagram was very useful too. we've spent last 9 months encouraging my horse to lengthen and relax his neck. He had been out scoring 70+ at elementary with previous rider, but it was obvious from the neck musculature that he was tight in his neck and not using his back properly as he was quite uncomfortable to ride. It's not worth cutting corners IMO.
Casey76 said:
Superb post kc100
Click to expand...
 
Hi all, thanks for the fascinating and informative post. Can I ask a really basic question though? There is a lot of reference to relaxing the neck, how does one actually do this? What are you doing as you ride to achieve this? And in a horse who resists this, where do you go from there? Thank you.
 
KatPT said:
Hi all, thanks for the fascinating and informative post. Can I ask a really basic question though? There is a lot of reference to relaxing the neck, how does one actually do this? What are you doing as you ride to achieve this? And in a horse who resists this, where do you go from there? Thank you.
Click to expand...

Great post but I agree with this. I have posted before about having a really tense horse who was genuinely terrified about relaxing under saddle when I got her and had no concept of working over her back even though she was 8. I have concentrated on just riding her forward from behind and keeping her as straight as possible (not easy at all) and she has improved but oh so slowly and her default is always to shorten through the neck and come back at me (if that makes sense) doing her "duck walk" in front. Any other tips? It's been 18 months now and I do wonder sometimes if we will ever get there......
 
KatPT said:
Hi all, thanks for the fascinating and informative post. Can I ask a really basic question though? There is a lot of reference to relaxing the neck, how does one actually do this? What are you doing as you ride to achieve this? And in a horse who resists this, where do you go from there? Thank you.
Click to expand...

No guru here, but can certainly share personal experience :). My horse is naturally quite tense and backward thinking - combine that with having been ridden in draw reins before I bought him, and you have a horse with a default of bracing the neck and curling back on himself, tightening the whole front end and creating a false outline. In addition, he is easily distracted. We took ALL gadgets off - simple cavesson noseband, no flash, no martingale, we made the school as non-scary and distraction-free as possible (or exercised him/warmed him up in the non-scary end), we hacked him a lot on the buckle but going forward (really marching) and then as he got stronger and began to build up muscle behind, we started working him long and low - first in walk, then in trot, then in canter. At first we didn't bother too much about what the transitions looked like, just focussed on getting him to stretch/work over his back within the paces . . . then we started asking for him to stay in that frame as he transitioned up (up, not down, at first - and then when he was established with that, in the downwards). Only when he was consistently open and swingy with a soft under neck and a relaxed jaw did we start to pick him up - and every time he got tense and braced, we let him back down again.

In my horse's case, we had to get him to trust a soft, consistent contact; to find his own balance and learn to keep it; and to "let go" with the muscles underneath his neck and really stretch and use his topline. Once he understood that the human on board wasn't going to restrict him and that he could actually lower and stretch he began to seek it more and more.

The way we asked him at first was for the rider to come off her seat, put her weight very slightly over his shoulders and open her hands (leg on) - yes that put him slightly on his forehand, but it encouraged him down . . . as he began to trust it, we brought the rider's body position back more towards the upright but left the seat light and the hands open (but with a soft, consistent contact - we're not talking about chucking the reins at him/dropping him).

Simon is quite right, though, that without straightness and a nice forward step, this is all a tad counterproductive.

We have used this method with Kali twice - when we first started working him properly and over the past two or three months while bringing him back into work after a prolonged break due to injury. Because he (still) has a mental default (which is to brace when tense) it's an important part of his foundation work and is probably something we will always do with him.

I hope that helps.

P
 
almostthere said:
Great post but I agree with this. I have posted before about having a really tense horse who was genuinely terrified about relaxing under saddle when I got her and had no concept of working over her back even though she was 8. I have concentrated on just riding her forward from behind and keeping her as straight as possible (not easy at all) and she has improved but oh so slowly and her default is always to shorten through the neck and come back at me (if that makes sense) doing her "duck walk" in front. Any other tips? It's been 18 months now and I do wonder sometimes if we will ever get there......
Click to expand...

Kali is now 16 and when tense does the "duck walk" (we call it "puppet") . . . unpicking learned bad behaviour takes a looooong time, particularly with hot, stressy horses. See my longer response above - for Pops one of the most important parts of rehabbing him/teaching him to relax and stretch (and soften) was providing an environment where he could . . . he hates the end of the school by YO's house - there are always workmen up there, there's a yappy little dog who appears out of nowhere, there are windows right by the school that reflect/cause glare, etc. - so we just make sure we work him in/do any stretchy/stretchy work at the other (much less scary) end. It may sound like an indulgence, but we can either fight with him for 40 minutes and train tense muscles, or we can set him up for success and work soft/relaxed muscles. At the end of the day, we're trying to inculcate new muscle memory.

I hope that helps.

P
 
Great post PolarSkye. We have a little mare who has the same "default" - suck back, look pretty but in reality very tense and completely braced from jaw through to the base of the neck. She gives herself a headache (literally) from the tension. She has been forced into a frame before we got her we think. I feel like I have spent 6 months "tipping her onto her forehand" again, only to now start the long slow process of bringing her back up again... It requires tact, a very quiet hand, and we also found changing her into a Myler with a barrel helped - a "quieter" bit helps her to stay soft.
The only other thing i would add is that getting some of these horses OUT of the arena helps (but not all - depends on their basic nature. This little mare does some of her best most relaxed work out on a hack as she does not seem to carry the same mental baggage out there. And of course hills work well too (it's hard to be tense when your head HAS to be down near your knees to climb).
 
PolarSkye said:
Kali is now 16 and when tense does the "duck walk" (we call it "puppet") . . . unpicking learned bad behaviour takes a looooong time, particularly with hot, stressy horses. See my longer response above - for Pops one of the most important parts of rehabbing him/teaching him to relax and stretch (and soften) was providing an environment where he could . . . he hates the end of the school by YO's house - there are always workmen up there, there's a yappy little dog who appears out of nowhere, there are windows right by the school that reflect/cause glare, etc. - so we just make sure we work him in/do any stretchy/stretchy work at the other (much less scary) end. It may sound like an indulgence, but we can either fight with him for 40 minutes and train tense muscles, or we can set him up for success and work soft/relaxed muscles. At the end of the day, we're trying to inculcate new muscle memory.

I hope that helps.

P
Click to expand...

Thanks - all makes sense (as does post above). I guess my thing is - just getting her "down there" has been a hell of a struggle. Trainers blithely say "work long and low" as if it is the easiest thing in the world but when you have a horse who seems terrified (or incapable) of stretching down into any form of contact, that in itself is a struggle. I dream of the day that she is on her forehand so that I can start picking her up!! And yes we also did loads of straight line hacking and physio helped and yes if she can become "distracted" she will to evade the difficult work. Sounds as if I am not missing anything though - the day I got her stretching down in canter for one complete 20m circle was a "eureka" moment. Small things become huge moments. Funny I bought her because I was terrified of ruining a youngster but I think it has been much harder to unpick the demons of the past and associated muscle memory than starting with a blank canvas :) thanks again PS and others.
 
Most horses that are said to be stiff or braced in the neck are not actually so (but of course some can be..). The brace may feel in the neck but it is normally elsewhere.

Ask the horse to halt and stand quietly. Then gently ask the horse to bend the neck around like a physios carrot stretch to either side. Given time most horses can do this. The problem is that in motion the hindleg is tight and is thrusting the horse forwards and the horse can feel braced as they are actually losing balance and tightening against this. Most horses in this situation then brace the jaws around the bit and this is what the rider feels.

By using halt and gentle lateral (to the side) flexions (where the head joins the neck) the rider can softly encourage the horse to release the jaw. When this happens ask the horse to walk on and repeat in walk and when the horse lets go in the jaw (not dropping the contact but a genuine release through the jaw) the rider will feel a release through the whole horse. Then the rider needs to stretch the horse down into a soft and correct long and low to release the back further and to gain a softer more in balance stride.
 
This was my experience too but my horse is tense but quite hot and forward thinking and although scoring 70+% at elementary when I bought him he just wasn't really through because of the tension in his neck but his big active paces hid it a bit and I think judges were taken in. He was also really uncomfortable to ride because his back was also tight. We've spent 9 months doing pretty much the same as PolarSkye. He found it really hard to work in a longer lower outline and tried to use speed to balance himself, we found we had to get him on the hind leg and keep him there with the seat, if I lightened my seat, he was off! We have also kept everything very slow, not the level you would want to show in a test but now we have a horse that is more balanced we are starting to put the pace back. I say "we" because I'm fortunate to have a really experienced and talented trainer who rides my horse as well as training me and he's not one to cut corners!
PolarSkye said:
No guru here, but can certainly share personal experience :).

In my horse's case, we had to get him to trust a soft, consistent contact; to find his own balance and learn to keep it; and to "let go" with the muscles underneath his neck and really stretch and use his topline. Once he understood that the human on board wasn't going to restrict him and that he could actually lower and stretch he began to seek it more and more.

The way we asked him at first was for the rider to come off her seat, put her weight very slightly over his shoulders and open her hands (leg on) - yes that put him slightly on his forehand, but it encouraged him down . . . as he began to trust it, we brought the rider's body position back more towards the upright but left the seat light and the hands open (but with a soft, consistent contact - we're not talking about chucking the reins at him/dropping him).

Simon is quite right, though, that without straightness and a nice forward step, this is all a tad counterproductive.

We have used this method with Kali twice - when we first started working him properly and over the past two or three months while bringing him back into work after a prolonged break due to injury. Because he (still) has a mental default (which is to brace when tense) it's an important part of his foundation work and is probably something we will always do with him.

I hope that helps.

P
Click to expand...
 
What a fascinating thread, thank you all. For our 7 yo who has done a lot in his life and very successfully at GR level, we are working on straightness, suppleness and rhythm at the moment so this is all very relevant to our work. Fatty's tendency is to tuck himself in, fix the neck, and then rush. One thing that I can't see anyone mentioning is non-ridden work. Not necessarily lungeing, although we do that, but also loose schooling when we focus on trying to keep him slow and rhythmical. I think it is really helping ours to properly relax over his back and learn to use himself properly. It is also fascinating to watch him from the ground as you can really see the habits he has developed. We have regular physio support for him as he changes the way of going. We also have a super trainer (thank you TS if you read this ;) ) and I am sure the non-ridden work is contributing to Fatty's progress.
 
Swirlymurphy said:
What a fascinating thread, thank you all. For our 7 yo who has done a lot in his life and very successfully at GR level, we are working on straightness, suppleness and rhythm at the moment so this is all very relevant to our work. Fatty's tendency is to tuck himself in, fix the neck, and then rush. One thing that I can't see anyone mentioning is non-ridden work. Not necessarily lungeing, although we do that, but also loose schooling when we focus on trying to keep him slow and rhythmical. I think it is really helping ours to properly relax over his back and learn to use himself properly. It is also fascinating to watch him from the ground as you can really see the habits he has developed. We have regular physio support for him as he changes the way of going. We also have a super trainer (thank you TS if you read this ;) ) and I am sure the non-ridden work is contributing to Fatty's progress.
Click to expand...

I agree - I am not necessarily a huge fan of lunging but mare had recently been off ridden work and so we have to do more ground work (at request of vet and physio) and it is really interesting watching how at the beginning of any session her tendency is to tighten in the area taht would be behind the saddle but gradually she releases and stretches through....
 
almostthere said:
Thanks - all makes sense (as does post above). I guess my thing is - just getting her "down there" has been a hell of a struggle. Trainers blithely say "work long and low" as if it is the easiest thing in the world but when you have a horse who seems terrified (or incapable) of stretching down into any form of contact, that in itself is a struggle. I dream of the day that she is on her forehand so that I can start picking her up!! And yes we also did loads of straight line hacking and physio helped and yes if she can become "distracted" she will to evade the difficult work. Sounds as if I am not missing anything though - the day I got her stretching down in canter for one complete 20m circle was a "eureka" moment. Small things become huge moments. Funny I bought her because I was terrified of ruining a youngster but I think it has been much harder to unpick the demons of the past and associated muscle memory than starting with a blank canvas :) thanks again PS and others.
Click to expand...

I've had Kali five years (today!) and he's only really learned to trust/work properly in the last three . . . part of that was me not having the necessary knowledge or help, but part of that was also his complete inability and unwillingness to trust any sort of contact and inability to let go. If you took any sort of contact he shook his head violently - it wasn't his teeth, it wasn't his back, it wasn't his saddle . . . it was just a great evasion. A lot of hacking/hill work on the buckle, leaving his head alone, focussing on getting him to "think" forward and then, once we'd got him to accept a contact for even a few strides, getting the right help to bring him on was what worked. And, oh, YES on the distraction thing - for a naturally inattentive horse it presents yet another obstacle :). If you've got her stretching in canter for a full 20m circle then you're definitely on the right path.

P
 
Not adding anything but its good to see a very informative thread with information thats easy to read and gives the op ideas to incorporate into the training and how good to see OB1 on the forum :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top