Did anyone else go to the Kelly Marks/Monty Roberts demo at Bury Farm last night?

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sazzle44

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Just wondering as I'd be very interested to hear what you all thought. I found it a very interesting day, having been there to set up. We saw the behind the scenes where they had the horses in to decide which they would use in the display.
I'm still not sure I could become one of the die-hard followers that seemed to be there, but I do think the methods were interesting to watch & I can agree with the ideas behind it. The problem was, I'm not sure I saw anything that any decent horse person could have managed. I felt a lot of it was common sense and was quite astonished that it can be sold as such a massive brand :confused: Okay, so the timing of the aids was very good and the positioning was good but anyone with a lot of experience of young/nervous horses would be able to do the same.
I also would be very interested to see it applied in real life situations. Parking your lorry in an arena and blocking your pony at the bottom of the ramp with round pen panels, yeah, you got it on, anyone can do that. How do you go about it in the middle of a lorry park at an event? :confused:
I would however be very interested to see how these methods could be incorporated into classical disciplines. Is there any real use to it for a level-headed horse who's been started correctly? I can't honestly see how it can be taken further though. Once you've taught you're young horse basic manners on the ground, backed him and ridden away, working through anything frightening, surely that's that? Maybe I'm narrow minded, but I just can't see the benefit or the need for a horse over a certain age? Someone change my mind. I'd like to be able to believe in this sort of think, but I'm not sure I can really get my head round it :rolleyes: :confused:
 
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I was there :) I loved it! I'm a big fan of Monty, not because of his NH status or anything, but because he seems like a nice guy. Nice people get more love from me than people who do great things, but aren't that nice.
I went to get his autograph and decided to do a doodle while I was waiting in the queue and give it to him :) He said it was "Wonderful, thank you very much!"
Personally, I just think you should pick and choose which bits apply to you and do that. If nothing applies, then don't bother with it. I could use most of the stuff he did yesterday, with Ned (the loading and de-spooking the dressage horse).
If you have a good horse, with no issues then I don't see how you could improve on it, I certainly wouldn't have used it on Blobby when he was alive and I wouldn't use it on Archie, but they are/were good, they load/ed and aren't/weren't spooky. Ned however, I think could benefit as he can be spooky, he won't load and he sometimes isn't good.

I'm not going to try and force his ways on to you or change your mind, but that's just what I think :)


btw, here's the drawing, if you're interested ^^ http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j308/gothic180/Monty001.jpg
 
Yes, he did seem like a nice guy. I thought Kelly was lovely too. I also totally agree with the principles they uphold. But I was also appalled at some of the comments about 'traditional' or classical training :mad: It dawned on me that this is why many IH or NH people are so disparaging of those that follow those methods.
Have you used any of the de-spooking stuff on your horse? If so, do you feel it has helped in the 'real world' so to speak?
I'm assuming that would just be the starting point of the process with a horse like that and that there would be a lot more work you would do with them?
Brilliant picture btw! Very impressed you managed that in the queue :)
 
I've used the despooking...it is common sense as you say..the youngsters on our yard don't use these techniques they just do loads with their horses straight away and e horse is desensitised that way but it's the same principle
Xxx
 
sazzle44 said:
The problem was, I'm not sure I saw anything that any decent horse person could have managed. I felt a lot of it was common sense and was quite astonished that it can be sold as such a massive brand :confused: Okay, so the timing of the aids was very good and the positioning was good but anyone with a lot of experience of young/nervous horses would be able to do the same.
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I do think there are many of us who didn't realize or apply these basic principles though. I was one and once you grasp it and apply it all the time life is so much easier. I needed to learn the real basics of timing, consistency, reading the horses responses etc. etc.
If you are already aware of these things I can see it would seem basic.
 
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I am going on the 25th, will be the 4th time I have seen him. It is a great show and they are lovely people. It is a lot of common sense and they do seem to pick horses that are not too hard to improve in the time given and I agree we don't have access to panels et at a show but it does get the horse up and down the ramp. It does show that the methods work and can be improved even more afterwards.
I gave in and bought a dually halter for my young horse who planted and then reared when asked to load. It worked virtually immediately and she now loads and unloads easily. Still can't do it alone as she won't stay in for me to then get the ramp up but thats work in progress.

It is a goodhorsey night out and very interesting, just hope its warms up!!
 
I didn't go to this show, but I have been to a few before and thoroughly enjoyed them. As someone said, a good horsey night out!

It must have been bl**dy cold there last night, though! I think I got a touch of hypothermia a couple of years ago (in February) when I went !!
 
I like Kelly immensely. I've helped out at a couple of demo's and also at one of her Perfect Confidence weekends and she's just as lovely when you are washing up and drying mugs together in the kitchen as she is when she's giving a talk or working with a horse. I like the IH methods and I do believe that the Recommended Associates are good at helping with "problem" horses. Sometimes you get yourself so het up with issues, like loading, that you can't see the wood for the trees and a fresh pair of eyes, in the form of an experienced RA can often help you achieve your goals. Indeed Kelly herself quotes the time she had a horse that wouldn't load... she tried for about 3 hours and in the end, sat down at the bottom of the ramp and exhaled in a resigned fashion. And the horse then proceeded to load itself! Sometimes you just need to think about your own posture and breathing....
 
I'd never used anything classed as IH, only traditional stuff. I hit problems with loading, where my mare would be fine at home, but take up to an hour to get on away from home. I've never seen Monty or Kelly, but I'd heard good things about IH so I got in touch with a RA and took my mare down to see her on the basis of the problems were only when we were away from home.

For the loading we did a lot of in-hand work inside the round pen, my mare already knew it all although it probably sharpened her reactions up. Wed then worked over a few obstacles like carpet and tarpaulin. My mare already had a strong bond with me so didn't flicker at any of this. The RA then loaded her in around 2 minutes, although there was some mildly spectacular moments before this where my mare spat the dummy, then walked on. It's never taken more than 2 minutes now even though I don't practise in between trips.

The RA was very very good, and I called her later on when my youngster wanted nothing to do with the inside of the trailer (that got fixed too).

Having said that, the groundwork was already in place, she did have the argument initially with her, but after that all she did really was teach me how to load properly - so common sense stuff that really works.

I don't think there should be such a boundary between traditional and IH. The bits that work are just the common sense stuff like making sure you're being clear about what you're asking for, knowing how to raise the stakes if they say no without anything getting dangerous etc. If your horse is already doing everything you want it to then there probably isn't anything you want to do with it using either method.

I also think we should remember - common sense isn't that common... anything that teaches it in whatever form can only be a good thing.
 
sazzle44 said:
Yes, he did seem like a nice guy. I thought Kelly was lovely too. I also totally agree with the principles they uphold. But I was also appalled at some of the comments about 'traditional' or classical training :mad: It dawned on me that this is why many IH or NH people are so disparaging of those that follow those methods.
Have you used any of the de-spooking stuff on your horse? If so, do you feel it has helped in the 'real world' so to speak?
I'm assuming that would just be the starting point of the process with a horse like that and that there would be a lot more work you would do with them?
Brilliant picture btw! Very impressed you managed that in the queue :)
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Thank you ^^ I find my doodles look better if I do them in weird places. One of my best sketches of a tiger was done on the underground at rush hour!

I think he means (or atleast I take it to mean) methods like his father used, such as whoa ropes and other nasty instruments of torture. Most of us in this country and others even though we use more traditional methods, we still love our horses and don't want to hurt them.

I personally have only used join-up and I've de-spooked him against the school. He used to rear and try and jump the fence, but I took him for walk around in-hand and let him come into the 'scary corners' in his own time and now I can just ride him in there no problem!
I'm going to try join-up again, because although I got the results, I don't think I did it quite right. I think the school work has helped him a bit in the real world, he's much more confident and has even taken the lead once or twice out on hacks!
 
I like Monty and Kelly's books very much, but when I went to a demo a few years back, I didn't particularly enjoy it and wasn't too impressed with the way they worked.
In contrast, I've seen Mickey Gavin work a few times and each time, I've come away with something that was quite a small change but made an immediate massive difference.
 
rlhnlk said:
I also think we should remember - common sense isn't that common... anything that teaches it in whatever form can only be a good thing.
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Hmm...I beginning to think this is quite true. It's interesting what you say about you loading issues though. Had you had any help previously?

Annielusian said:
Thank you ^^ I find my doodles look better if I do them in weird places. One of my best sketches of a tiger was done on the underground at rush hour!

I think he means (or atleast I take it to mean) methods like his father used, such as whoa ropes and other nasty instruments of torture. Most of us in this country and others even though we use more traditional methods, we still love our horses and don't want to hurt them.

I personally have only used join-up and I've de-spooked him against the school. He used to rear and try and jump the fence, but I took him for walk around in-hand and let him come into the 'scary corners' in his own time and now I can just ride him in there no problem!
I'm going to try join-up again, because although I got the results, I don't think I did it quite right. I think the school work has helped him a bit in the real world, he's much more confident and has even taken the lead once or twice out on hacks!
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I'm not sure about that. I was quite offended when he said about people tying their horses between posts and whipping them to get piaffe. I'm sorry, but not even the Spanish Riding school do that anymore and even then it wouldn't have been done in a cruel manner. It just isn't done like that. Obviously the ways his father and that generation in the states did things was horrific but I don't think he can condemn everyone who uses a stick or spurs. I know he probably doesn't himself & you've taken that in a sensible way yourself :) The problem is, too many people don't understand anything else & they take it to mean that anyone who's horse can piaffe has been beaten into it & that sort of judgement doesn't sit very well with me.
That's good that it has helped your horse and made him more confident. Do you think he would be less frightened in an unfamilar arena now that he's got better in your own or do you think you would have to take the same approach with it?
Thankyou all for replying with your opinions and experiences. It's definately something I'm very interested in, I'm just not completely convinced yet :rolleyes: :)
 
i went to one a year and a half ago at gleneagles and was very impressed. it is so obvious that monty has a real way with horses.we took some loading ideas and use them to good effect. ours weren't bad loaders but the way they load now is way better and a few people have commented on this. i think everone will take something different from it and it is a good horsey night as others have said.
 
In some places that still happens, but I don't think it's as common as he made out. I doubt many places do it, it just seems to be more 'seedy' places that don't seem well run in the first place. There's a few videos on youtube of people whipping the horses legs between posts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2WfaU-TLt0

I'm not sure about unfamiliar places yet, but I've got him out in-hand in the jumping field, where as before he'd just either rear or plant. The YO is getting more fields soon (They did belong to her brother-in-law and we couldn't ride on them) so I hope to take him in there to get him used to being away from other horses and realise that nothing bad will happen and that we can have fun ^^
 
Well I must say its my first post on this site but I simply have to reply to this thread as hopefully anyone that was there saw my youngster 'Parc Roberto' in the first 'Start Up' demonstration.

I must admit I was pleased not to have to lead him in to the round pen at the start as I can honestly say I dont think he would have looked so calm!! More Bounce Bounce.

It was by far one of the best days of my life and such a privilage to have Monty, Kelly and Linda from IH to advise and support. Watching Roberto 'join up' with Monty made my eyes well up and the rest was just perfect -

Roberto to me was the superstar though and I can't wait to get started albeit when I can manage consistency in the long awaited Spring of warmth, soft grass and no mud (oh and temperatures above -8).
 
cambrica said:
Well I must say its my first post on this site but I simply have to reply to this thread as hopefully anyone that was there saw my youngster 'Parc Roberto' in the first 'Start Up' demonstration.

I must admit I was pleased not to have to lead him in to the round pen at the start as I can honestly say I dont think he would have looked so calm!! More Bounce Bounce.

It was by far one of the best days of my life and such a privilage to have Monty, Kelly and Linda from IH to advise and support. Watching Roberto 'join up' with Monty made my eyes well up and the rest was just perfect -

Roberto to me was the superstar though and I can't wait to get started albeit when I can manage consistency in the long awaited Spring of warmth, soft grass and no mud (oh and temperatures above -8).
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Oh wow! That must have been quite a moment for you. I thought your little guy coped admirably in such an atmospheric arena. Looks like he's going to be a smart little chap with that 'fancy high stepping' :p. If you don't mind me asking, what made you take him? It might have been mentioned but I was so cold my ears must have been frozen solid!! Were you given any advice on how to further his education?
Don't you blame you in waiting for spring. The young ones I've got to play with are having a little snow holiday back at their owners for the time being!
I don't deny that Monty and Alex did a very nice job, but I can't help but think that was an awful lot for a pony to take in all in one go :(
 
cambrica said:
Well I must say its my first post on this site but I simply have to reply to this thread as hopefully anyone that was there saw my youngster 'Parc Roberto' in the first 'Start Up' demonstration.

I must admit I was pleased not to have to lead him in to the round pen at the start as I can honestly say I dont think he would have looked so calm!! More Bounce Bounce.

It was by far one of the best days of my life and such a privilage to have Monty, Kelly and Linda from IH to advise and support. Watching Roberto 'join up' with Monty made my eyes well up and the rest was just perfect -

Roberto to me was the superstar though and I can't wait to get started albeit when I can manage consistency in the long awaited Spring of warmth, soft grass and no mud (oh and temperatures above -8).
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He was gorgeous! The lady who I went with and I commented on how beautiful he looks and what a nice movement he has! She had a Welsh Sec D who needs a bit of work, Roberto really inspired her :)
 
I agree that Parc Roberto was stunning, and took to his rider exceptionally well. Yes, the evening was exceptionally cold, although I know you won't believe me when I say how much colder it was outside the arena than inside for anyone working behind the scenes!
I just wanted to say to those who are asking about whether an older, level headed, well schooled horse needs 'Monty's methods' - personally I would say that if you have a level headed, well schooled horse then you are already using the principles that he promotes so strongly!
Also wanted to give an example of the fusion of 'IH / Monty' with 'the competition world' to indicate that there is not such a gap as so many would make out - Carrie Adams is a Group 2 rider and trainer and also an Intelligent Horsemanship Recommended Associate - you can find out more on her website http://www.centrelines.co.uk/.
Here's hoping that Friday's demo is warmer at least!
Sue
 
I asked an RA (Recommended Associate) if they found that there were fewer problem horses around, thanks to the publicity of Monty/Kelly, etc. and wider appreciation of what makes a horse do what it does. She replied sadly that they still come across many, many ponies and horses that have been mishandled - not necessarily or always cruelly, but just poorly.

I have been a helper at a demot too, and found everyone concerned was lovely. Monty is so good, he has had a lifetime of course and he can help with problems that have beaten even the experienced person.
 
Not sure if I can do multiple 'quotes' in one post so will try and answer this way:confused:

Sue - Yes it was much colder behind scenes, going back and forth to stables made the main arena feel warm!!

Annielusion - Thank you for your wonderful words. There are so many welsh out there spoilt by overfeeding for the in-hand show scene, breeding not to type or selectively that I class myself very fortunate to have found Roberto from a stud that firmly believes in preserving the type and he has the most wonderful laid-back temperament. I hope your friend enjoys owning one of the most beautiful versatile breeds.

Sazzle44 - I brought tickets as birthday presents for my daughter and my mum and noticed they were looking for horses for the demo. I thought long and hard about it and when I eventually filled out the online form honestly thought it highly unlikely to hear back.
Im well aware that welsh take a long time to mature and too much too soon will ruin them which is why I am in no hurry and will work at his own pace, however knowing that a rider will only be on his back for a very short time the overall experience for Roberto of the indoor arena, crowd etc etc would be of huge benefit to him, not to mention the professionals working around him. I want him to experience as much as possible as a positive approach to hopefully, in the far future, large ridden shows in such enviroments. Im sure that during selection if they thought a horse was not mentally ready they would not be selected.
I spoke at length with Kelly and Monty and they listened to, advised and agreed regarding primary ground based schooling and when to really 'Start' him. Monty actually thought that maybe I was thinking of spreading things over too long a period. I think he may be right. Also I know that I can call Linda from the IH at anytime for ongoing advice. She is worth her weight in gold!!
And Roberto- I went straight out back to see him when he'd finished and he was so relaxed as though it was a walk in the park, being led around by the vet physio. Its a bit like dropping your child off at the school gates for their first day when all you want to do is protect them, I did feel that emotion.
 
cambrica said:
Annielusion - Thank you for your wonderful words. There are so many welsh out there spoilt by overfeeding for the in-hand show scene, breeding not to type or selectively that I class myself very fortunate to have found Roberto from a stud that firmly believes in preserving the type and he has the most wonderful laid-back temperament. I hope your friend enjoys owning one of the most beautiful versatile breeds.
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Sadly she's selling as she's hurt her shoulder/arm and can't really ride and daughters don't really ride anymore either :( I'd totally have her, but sadly I can't afford one yet!
 
sazzle44 - I hadn't had help previously, as I say she was fine at home, only a problem away. I had tried sticking a lungeline round her and she had gotten to a point where she would sit on it. Once threatened her with the lunge whip and it worked once, then the second time she called my bluff and seemed to know I wouldn't use it - which I wouldn't. The method the RA used was to walk forward, if she stopped then the RA kept the pressure on until she came forward, then immediately the RA would push her backwards and then walk forwards again. The first time she kept the pressure on my mare stood up full height - mild over-reaction but she is a diva. RA kept the pressure on and she stepped forward, her face when she got pushed backwards was a picture. Then she almost trotted into the trailer. The RA spent a few times teaching her to not run on, and that if she got stopped halfway up the ramp then forwards was still an option. Now when I walk to the trailer to load I'll do a rapid recap of the dually and then walk straight on. I've found it's important to keep an eye on my feet, if she stops and I stop then I've let her dictate, if I keep walking then I've won and she soon follows without the pressure.

Orangehorse - I think thats hit the nail on the head, taking loading as an example how many times do you see horses plant halfway up the ramp and then the handlers pat them to reassure them it's ok - really the horse takes that as it's ok to plant. Or the one's who turn them away and away again and again. They aren't being cruel but they're effectively teaching them it's ok to not load. If you watch any of the people who fix loading they all keep the pressure up until the horse loads, they may give them time to stop and think every step they take forwards which they need but they don't turn them away. I'm not saying these people are stupid or rubbish with horses either - I've been there and done exactly what they're doing - but then once you have it explained and see it in action it just seems like such common sense!
 
I've not been to any demos,but Linda who is on tour with Monty came out to help me with Knobberpony,who used to plant and rear if she didn't want to be lead.Linda is fabulous,she has a collection of 'reject' horses herself.I'm not very experienced so wanted to get it right and we have had no issues since her visit.The pony who could have me shaking with fear as I lead her 100ft into the yard,now happily goes on lead rein walks for miles with me.The day Linda spent with us is one I'll remember always.

A friend had her horse used in a loading demo-she had to hack her 6 miles to the demo as she could not be loaded to drive there.She loads every time now.

I'd love to go to a demo,but there aren't any near me.
 
I believe the RA's are great for nervous owners who's horses have got the upper hand.
I was involved with an RA who was employed to work with a friends horse. The RA was a very nice person but sadly made no progress with said horse. The owner was sent reams of written notes after each session.
Horse was finally sent to an event rider who made loads of progress in the same time frame and had the horse completely sorted eventually.
Event rider was one third cheaper (and couldn't even spell horses name :-) )
 
sazzle44 said:
Just wondering as I'd be very interested to hear what you all thought. I found it a very interesting day, having been there to set up. We saw the behind the scenes where they had the horses in to decide which they would use in the display.
I'm still not sure I could become one of the die-hard followers that seemed to be there, but I do think the methods were interesting to watch & I can agree with the ideas behind it. The problem was, I'm not sure I saw anything that any decent horse person could have managed. I felt a lot of it was common sense and was quite astonished that it can be sold as such a massive brand :confused: Okay, so the timing of the aids was very good and the positioning was good but anyone with a lot of experience of young/nervous horses would be able to do the same.
I also would be very interested to see it applied in real life situations. Parking your lorry in an arena and blocking your pony at the bottom of the ramp with round pen panels, yeah, you got it on, anyone can do that. How do you go about it in the middle of a lorry park at an event? :confused:
I would however be very interested to see how these methods could be incorporated into classical disciplines. Is there any real use to it for a level-headed horse who's been started correctly? I can't honestly see how it can be taken further though. Once you've taught you're young horse basic manners on the ground, backed him and ridden away, working through anything frightening, surely that's that? Maybe I'm narrow minded, but I just can't see the benefit or the need for a horse over a certain age? Someone change my mind. I'd like to be able to believe in this sort of think, but I'm not sure I can really get my head round it :rolleyes: :confused:
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2 points

1 Some people just don't have common sense and need to see or be shown !

2 My friends horse was loaded by Monty a number of years back, he wasn't loaded again until a year later and he went straight on we were all crying as at the time it was sad becuase my friend was selling him, she has since bought him back from this person couple of years later, he has also loaded on a trailer since, where as before there was NO CHANCE of that.

I always watch the join up horse being ridden etc in 30 mins, but I always think what happens after that, to teach the aids etc
 
NOISYGIRL said:
2 points

1 Some people just don't have common sense and need to see or be shown !

2 My friends horse was loaded by Monty a number of years back, he wasn't loaded again until a year later and he went straight on we were all crying as at the time it was sad becuase my friend was selling him, she has since bought him back from this person couple of years later, he has also loaded on a trailer since, where as before there was NO CHANCE of that.

I always watch the join up horse being ridden etc in 30 mins, but I always think what happens after that, to teach the aids etc
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Agree with all of that.
 
sazzle44 said:
I also would be very interested to see it applied in real life situations. Parking your lorry in an arena and blocking your pony at the bottom of the ramp with round pen panels, yeah, you got it on, anyone can do that. How do you go about it in the middle of a lorry park at an event? :confused:
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I think the point of showing a loading problem during the demo is so that you consider training your horse to load correctly in a normal stress-free situation beforehand ... precisely to avoid a confrontation at an event :-)

I know I practise loading my horses the day before I'm due to take them anywhere, when I'm completely chilled with nothing else in my diary - so that on the day loading occurs without a problem. It's when I forget or don't have time to do this that I then get anxious on loading day, particularly if the clock's ticking and I have an appointment somewhere.
 
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