Difference between classical, and traditional English style riding

[Wagtail]

Another thread about how to stop a horse from leaning has reminded me about contact issues that many people have. I have sat on and observed many horses in my life, some of which are competing at the higher levels of dressage (mostly not mine, though some were!). And around ten years ago, something struck me. Out of the horses competing at say elementary or above in dressage, so obviously very well schooled, balanced etc, they fell into two groups. Those that seemed to seek a strong contact, and those that were light on their forehand and in self carriage. Both looked the same to an onlooker (so long as you didn't see the strength of contact the rider had on their mouths). So why is this? I think it is because those that are heavier have been trained the traditional BHS way - get them going forward and ride them into the contact. Keep your hands still, reins short and use a strong leg. Eventually, these horses submit and go in a lovely outline and can be trained to top levels of dressage. It is one of my pet hates. I prefer what I guess is the classical way and a light horse in self carriage. I think the key is to get them off your hand and that teaches them to carry themselves. What are others' views?

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I totally agree with you OP. A classically trained horse works in harmony with its rider. The traditional BHS trained horses may also work in harmony, but only after they've been psychologically (and possibly physically) dominated to keep their head in a certain place no matter what. Because in the beginning the traditional way essentially creates a false outline it leads to a horse who seeks to balance itself on the riders hand to some degree or other. I think its very telling that a classically trained horse will go just as nicely in a headcollar as in a bit, but traditionally trained horses will often become difficult to control or lose their ability to work in the same outline as when they have a bit to balance on.

 

[eatmoremincepies]

I agree with you. I think the "riding strongly into a contact" way gets a steady head carriage early on and that is what tends to be rewarded in tests, especially at Nov and Ele, certainly at Novice sheets are full of "hollowing" comments when there are other things going on that would be worth drawing to the riders' attention, imho.

It's also a lot easier to conceal problems with a stronger contact, I do use one on occasion when a horse is difficult at competitions and there are no other options, but its very much a cosmetic quick fix and not a solution. Just my 2p.

 

[eatmoremincepies]

Btw I wouldn't call this the "BHS" way as there are BHS approved schools that don't teach this way. Let us not tar all with the same brush.

You could call it the German way if you like . . . tee hee.

 

[Wagtail]

I totally agree with you OP. A classically trained horse works in harmony with its rider. The traditional BHS trained horses may also work in harmony, but only after they've been psychologically (and possibly physically) dominated to keep their head in a certain place no matter what. Because in the beginning the traditional way essentially creates a false outline it leads to a horse who seeks to balance itself on the riders hand to some degree or other. I think its very telling that a classically trained horse will go just as nicely in a headcollar as in a bit, but traditionally trained horses will often become difficult to control or lose their ability to work in the same outline as when they have a bit to balance on.

That is a very good point. My own mare goes beautifully round in just a head collar. I hadn't thought about why that was, and I haven't tried it on any other horse.

I agree with you. I think the "riding strongly into a contact" way gets a steady head carriage early on and that is what tends to be rewarded in tests, especially at Nov and Ele, certainly at Novice sheets are full of "hollowing" comments when there are other things going on that would be worth drawing to the riders' attention, imho.

It's also a lot easier to conceal problems with a stronger contact, I do use one on occasion when a horse is difficult at competitions and there are no other options, but its very much a cosmetic quick fix and not a solution. Just my 2p.

Very good point about the steady head carriage that gains dressage points early on. Some classically trained horses can be unsteady in their head to start with because they are being asked to balance themselves and need to move it around more when they lose balance. Only when they gain strength and balance does the head carriage become stiller.

 

[Wagtail]

Btw I wouldn't call this the "BHS" way as there are BHS approved schools that don't teach this way. Let us not tar all with the same brush.

You could call it the German way if you like . . . tee hee.

Maybe it's just my experience of them. I have had too many riders come to me riding with reins too short, tipped over and elbows straight! Not the intention of the instructors I don't think, but the result of being constantly told to shorten their reins and ride the horse into the contact.

 

[ihatework]

Agree to some extent.
I have conflicting thoughts at the moment as my current horse is pretty insensitive in the mouth and would to all extent and purpose appear to fit into your first catagory.

Apart from the fact I train with a classical instructor and seem to spend every waking moment trying to change what is my horses apparent default way of working. None of my horses has ever been so blunt, heavy and fixed in the contact, and tbh it isn't always pleasant to ride .... yet it isn't obvious to the person on the ground watching, be that instructor, dressage judge or any other onlooker

 

[canteron]

OP, I completely agree.

Having lost my nerve, a few years ago I decided to learn to ride again from scratch in the classical manner. The classical manner appears to relies more heavily on how you hold and use yourself to influence the horse rather than so much on how you bully the horse. Having now retrained my horses the difference in how easy they are to ride is amazing ...... and the difference in the strength of my body is amazing too, which pretty much tells its own tale?
!

 

[Wagtail]

Agree to some extent.
I have conflicting thoughts at the moment as my current horse is pretty insensitive in the mouth and would to all extent and purpose appear to fit into your first catagory.

Apart from the fact I train with a classical instructor and seem to spend every waking moment trying to change what is my horses apparent default way of working. None of my horses has ever been so blunt, heavy and fixed in the contact, and tbh it isn't always pleasant to ride .... yet it isn't obvious to the person on the ground watching, be that instructor, dressage judge or any other onlooker

Is it because of how he was trained before you had him? What is he like if you ride him in a hackamore? I was forced to ride one of my horses in a hackamore for two years before I found a bit in which she did not snatch and throw her head. In the hackamore the contact was still and light. I could not compete her for all that time but progressed her work from prelim level to medium at home. Once I finally found the bit which suited her, she just picked up her training as if it had always been in the bit! Such a shame British Dressage don't allow bitless.

 

[Emma86]

I totally agree.
I recently went to Portugal to train with the family that run Appassionata, at Centro Equestre de Leziria who I guess you would call 'Classical Trainers'.
The way they train their horses (ranging from rescued bullfighters to their own youngsters to training liveries) is truly amazing and the end product is even better.

We rode various different stallions (mainly Luso's) over 4 days and it felt like a completely different experience to riding here. They are schooled to perfection with no fight, or struggle to get the horse working. Once your seat and position is correct the horse will work for you in the correct outline and self carriage. I beleive this is all down to the training.
We got to watch them training youngsters and how to start training in lateral work and really was inspiring.

There are also some fantastic 'English style' trainers I have had the pleasure of watching and training with.
I wonder if the type of training method we use has anything to do with the breeds we prefer? Or does anyone know this for fact?

 

[Wagtail]

OP, I completely agree.

Having lost my nerve, a few years ago I decided to learn to ride again from scratch in the classical manner. The classical manner appears to relies more heavily on how you hold and use yourself to influence the horse rather than so much on how you bully the horse. Having now retrained my horses the difference in how easy they are to ride is amazing ...... and the difference in the strength of my body is amazing too, which pretty much tells its own tale?
!

Yes. With a classically trained horse your should be able to perform pretty much every movement without the reins, once the horse is well trained enough. You only have to turn your head to change diection. The feeling is wonderful. If I ever want to know how well a horse is really listening to me, then I will ride on the buckle and see how they are responding. It's a good test for me too!

 

[Wagtail]

I totally agree.
I recently went to Portugal to train with the family that run Appassionata, at Centro Equestre de Leziria who I guess you would call 'Classical Trainers'.
The way they train their horses (ranging from rescued bullfighters to their own youngsters to training liveries) is truly amazing and the end product is even better.

We rode various different stallions (mainly Luso's) over 4 days and it felt like a completely different experience to riding here. They are schooled to perfection with no fight, or struggle to get the horse working. Once your seat and position is correct the horse will work for you in the correct outline and self carriage. I beleive this is all down to the training.
We got to watch them training youngsters and how to start training in lateral work and really was inspiring.

There are also some fantastic 'English style' trainers I have had the pleasure of watching and training with.
I wonder if the type of training method we use has anything to do with the breeds we prefer? Or does anyone know this for fact?

What a fantastic experience. I would love to do that. One of my liveries went to what sounds like it could have been the same place last year. She said she couldn't believe how responsive the horses were there and how much easier to ride. Her own horse is extremely strong and 'gobby' as she was at a yard where they trained her in draw reins previously.

 

[siennamum]

When you read old books written by the English 'masters', they advocate riding with a quiet hand and a very soft and intuitive style. I think there's some confusion here. The 'ride the horse into a wall' approach we all dislike is something I associate with a Germanic style which was introduced in the 80's.
I think badly schooled horses are badly schooled whatever tag you give the training. Most people aim for the same thing, a light reponsive, obedient horse which will go well for any rider. Acheiving this is really simple and really hard all at the same time. Simple because you have to do very little, hard because you have to be really educated to understand how to avoid the wrong things.
Having an overly light contact for instance may work very well with an Iberian, just as you have to avoid overly emphasising long and low with Iberians (purportedly), an Irish horse will need more support from the rider's hand and will need to be developed physically to avoid collapsing onto it's front end.

 

[ihatework]

Is it because of how he was trained before you had him? What is he like if you ride him in a hackamore? I was forced to ride one of my horses in a hackamore for two years before I found a bit in which she did not snatch and throw her head. In the hackamore the contact was still and light. I could not compete her for all that time but progressed her work from prelim level to medium at home. Once I finally found the bit which suited her, she just picked up her training as if it had always been in the bit! Such a shame British Dressage don't allow bitless.

I haven't tried bitless, although I can add it to the list.
I initially put it down to how he was trained before I had him, I got him rising 5 from a dealer/SJer type and just automatically assumed draw rein legacy. Since then I have had short spells whereby he has felt good and through/light and hoped we were turning a corner in the training, only to repeatedly hit the brick wall again.
TBH I'm going down the physical route now, looking closely at the engine and a possible disconnect.

 

[Emma86]

What a fantastic experience. I would love to do that. One of my liveries went to what sounds like it could have been the same place last year. She said she couldn't believe how responsive the horses were there and how much easier to ride. Her own horse is extremely strong and 'gobby' as she was at a yard where they trained her in draw reins previously.

It really was amazing, such an honour. I have photos and videos I will post soon but I am waiting for confimation that they are happy for me to post them.

When you ride classically schooled horses correctly the horse works for you and so your riding becomes better and so the circle goes on and it really is a wonderful feeling.

I then came home to school my Irish sports horse and I was amazed at the difference it had made to my riding. Dont get me wrong, I have lessons everyweek with my two 'English' trainers, which I learn from and so does my horse.
There just seems to be a kind of harmony between classicly trained horses and riders. Especially if you have seen the process.

 

[Wagtail]

Thanks Siennamum, I didn't realise it originated in Germany. I just assumed it was traditional English.

 

[Littlelegs]

Agreed op. I had the luck of working for an excellent, classical dressage trainer years ago. Up until then I was really only into jumping, so had never explored too much into the typical ride them into a contact style. And possibly helped by an awful lot of bareback, headcollar & lr riding, as a tall skinny kid reins had never played a massive part. And I'm so grateful to that boss, & his horses, the amount I learnt was unbelievable. Neither my mare or I have any great interest as such in dressage as a discipline, only as a form of training. She & I are jumpers at heart. Never felt any need to compete her above medium, her lateral work is established, but functional rather than competitive. And yet in a headcollar & lr we can collect, extend, do tempi changes etc. Likewise, my 7yr old can do transistions within a pace, a simple change in a figure 8 & basic lateral work despite being massively over horsed size wise. Not because she's a dressage diva, but pushing the right buttons on a horse that carries itself is simple. Interestingly, her friends very bhs trained first ridden she describes as very hard work.

 

[Wagtail]

Agreed op. I had the luck of working for an excellent, classical dressage trainer years ago. Up until then I was really only into jumping, so had never explored too much into the typical ride them into a contact style. And possibly helped by an awful lot of bareback, headcollar & lr riding, as a tall skinny kid reins had never played a massive part. And I'm so grateful to that boss, & his horses, the amount I learnt was unbelievable. Neither my mare or I have any great interest as such in dressage as a discipline, only as a form of training. She & I are jumpers at heart. Never felt any need to compete her above medium, her lateral work is established, but functional rather than competitive. And yet in a headcollar & lr we can collect, extend, do tempi changes etc. Likewise, my 7yr old can do transistions within a pace, a simple change in a figure 8 & basic lateral work despite being massively over horsed size wise. Not because she's a dressage diva, but pushing the right buttons on a horse that carries itself is simple. Interestingly, her friends very bhs trained first ridden she describes as very hard work.

Me too, I was always into jumping and never thought about outline etc in my youth. I am impressed your show jumper was competing at medium dressage!

 

[Taisypops]

I think if you ride from your seat and leg as much as you can aiming for a horse that will bend round your inside leg, go forward from your leg and laterally move away from your leg then the horse will soften into a contact. I never get into a tug of war with my horses mouth, if she is resisting I move her about with my legs a wee bit until she starts to relax and she will usually drop onto a nice shape....I hate the phrase on the bit...you horse should be on your aids.....x

 

[Littlelegs]

Thankyou Wagtail, but she wasn't competitive at that level really, we just did it to have input on our training, never placed highly at medium. And tbh did it in part cos job meant I could stick her in the box for free! The interest to do it on her came because I needed spot on striding to progress with her jumping. My boss very much believed that if basics were as near perfect as possible, teaching a horse more advanced moves was a very simple progression, & that's definitely something I believe in too as a result. Eg if your basic working canter is in perfect balance, a basic flying change comes almost naturally & requires only tidying up. So because he insisted every horse had the same near perfect basics, including his grooms horses, whatever discipline or level, it wasn't much of a stretch to put a bit of fancy footwork on top. In his opinion every horse should have the same training at a basic level, whether aimed at gp dressage or local shows. Riding 3 good basic paces to his standard before deviating from them was the hard part!

 

[Steorra]

I learnt to ride at a BHS approved riding school, and was never taught to take a strong contact, overshorten my reins, or push the horse into the bridle.

My first experience of this was when I got my own horse and had lessons with a German trainer. I moved on to a BD trainer and judge, but found her attitude was similar. Both got very frustrated with the fact that I supposedly couldnt (actually wouldnt!) "hold him together", before he had found his balance. Both advised me I wasn't physically big or strong enough for my horse.

Fortunately I refused to believe that this was all there was to dressage, and moved on again. The trainer I found (a BHS II, though it was his style and experience I was looking for rather than qualifications) taught me things that I am now discovering are "classical". He also taught me some things often branded "natural horsemanship". He taught me to bring on my horse progressively, using gymnastic exercises with thought and care, and with attention to his comfort and welfare. And I think (hope) there are riders and trainers like that from all countries and backgrounds.

Now that I no longer have a horse in work I take lessons at an ABRS approved school, where I have found instructors with the same attitude. Who wouldn't necessarily brand themselves as classical riders, but who think about the consequences of their actions to the horse.

 

[SusannaF]

The real original "English seat" doesn't involve collection at all, if I've read my history correctly. It's for hunting rather than school work.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Can you explain how you ride, rather than how you don't please?

 

[Wagtail]

Can you explain how you ride, rather than how you don't please?

Is this directed at me or another poster?

 

[FfionWinnie]

Is this directed at me or another poster?

Yes sorry. You have said what traditional is but you haven't really said how you ride I don't think.

 

[Wagtail]

Yes sorry. You have said what traditional is but you haven't really said how you ride I don't think.

Describing how someone rides in words is always extremely difficult. Much easier to actually watch. My aim is to have the horse off the leg (responding to the lightest aid that I don't have to keep repeating), forward and light in the hand. So I don't ride 'leg on', though my calves are rested on the sides. If the horse does not move immediately forward to a light squeeze, then depending on the horse, I either give a much stronger leg aid or a tickle with the whip. The contact is very light but the reins are not in loops. I hate an inconsistent rein, which is annoying to horses. So my hands do move depending on what the horse is doing. My aim is to maintain a consistent light pressure on the bit so I can feel the horse at all times but it is never heavy in my hand. I like horses to be able to do everything without a rein aid once they are well trained and balanced. Before that then its important to know the difference between direct and indirect rein aids and their effects on the horse. I could go on and on but I am probably telling you how to suck eggs.

 

[siennamum]

So I would say that Reiner Klimke is as traditional as it comes. His teaching & theory is the bedrock of much modern dressage. Here he is warming up.

I am confused about how anyone would not think this is wonderful, or how the horse is heavy in the hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzG-0TyTuMs

 

[FfionWinnie]

Thanks. I would say that is how I aim to ride and I am unsure how I knew that was what i wanted to achieve since I have not had many lessons despite riding for a long time. I would really like to improve my riding now but I want to find the right type of lesson.

I would like some pics and vids if anyone has them

 

[vineyridge]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the French school of dressage. The very basis for starting and working with and refining horses is just about the polar opposite of the German theories that are taught so much today all over the world of dressage. The French (I'm not sure this is entirely correct) say "balance before forward" while the Germans say "Forward before balance."

I think that until the 1950s or 1960s the Saumur style of dressage was taught worldwide. It certainly was a tremendous influence on US Cavalry training and the development of the American style of riding of that era and later.

 

[Cortez]

So I would say that Reiner Klimke is as traditional as it comes. His teaching & theory is the bedrock of much modern dressage. Here he is warming up.

I am confused about how anyone would not think this is wonderful, or how the horse is heavy in the hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzG-0TyTuMs

Well, I wouldn't class Klimke as a "traditional" German rider at all, actually. he was famed for the lightness of his riding, and being able to ride difficult horses. Biotop was a Trakehner; very light, sensitive horses that many German riders find difficult.