Difference between schooling for showing & dressage?

[Butterbean]

Just a random question that popped into my head ... is there a difference in what you are trying to achieve when schooling a horse for showing & for dressage? Have occasionally read comments in H&H to the effect that a show horse was going nicely but not like a dressage horse (eg I think - but may be wrong - when Lucinda Green rode Robocob).

Would have thought that you would be trying to achieve the same thing ie balance, lightness, obedience etc no matter how you were going to compete ? ... but then I know nothing whatsoever about showing

(and not very much about dressage

)

 

[custard]

Hmm this is an intersting one and would like a few answers myself so if Im wrong please put me straight.

I think for dressage they like to see the horse going more forward and properly accepting the bit

My chap did a lot of showing with a well knownproducer before I bought him and was ridden in a pelham, a lot. Now at 15 he still doesnt truly accept a proper contact and evades the bit going behind/under/over it etc out of habit.

Trainer thinks this is fairly typical of a show horse and I'll probably upset a lot of showing people here but what the heck, I think its common to just shove a pelham/double in a young horses mouth to crank the head down. You then end up with the front end looking pretty but the back end isnt connected and is doing bugger all. I will now wait for you all to tell me I know foo all and go away!!!

 

[seabiscuit]

Quite honestly from what Ive seen of top class showing it is all about heads tucked in nothing else so yes there is a huge difference between schooling for dressage and showing.
Not to say that there aren't showpeople out there who do know how to school properly, but there are very few of them.

 

[druid]

Well...we use a different instructor for a start...

Our WHP also does junior dressage, with the showing lessons there's alot of work on perfecting the "picture" and the image of a workmanlike but sensible ride.

Dressage trainer seems to wnat him more in front of the leg and more active than the showing one, for example the canter with showing one is collection without looking like it's any effort..dressage lady prefers a big, jumpy canter....

 

[Butterbean]

Hmmm, thanks for that, bit of a shame if that is the case. Surprising too as would have thought judges would have preferred horses working properly from behind.

 

[PaddyMonty]

My wifes little welsh D did some showing (quite successfully) before we got her. She really didn't know how to work forward. All her paces seem to have been restricted.
Very different pony after 5 years of dressage training.

 

[Bananaman]

Having competed at National level in both disciplines my thoughts more or less echo the above posters.

When show judging I prefer the ride to be light, responsive and effortless. The hunters and cobs I prefer to go on a bit more but certainly hacks and Arabs I like not to take too strong a hold.
Having said that, they should accept a contact nevertheless and not drop behind the bit.

The dressage horse on the other hand should be ridden towards controlled power. The 'light contact' here is generally much firmer than most show rider's expect.

I train quite a few riders that have swapped from showing to dressage and most like to sit 'prettily' and not do a lot and are quite shocked to find how proactive they need to be in order to influence the way their horse moves!

 

[Jo C]

Bananaman you sound like my instructor, I keep getting told not to sit so prettily and actually loosen up and ride now. Old habits die hard though.

 

[Sparklet]

The girls that owns showing horses at out place has no concept of bending horse or how to do any lateral work - also the bits appear to be very strong. I suppose that is the biggest difference I see.

 

[Ferdinase514]

Jo - I have the same comments. "Yes, Tori you look very pretty, but you are totally ineffective...." Mmm.

 

[Tempi]

i was hoping you would reply to this thread as i knew you write out what i wanted to write but in a much better way!

I basically think that in showing classes the horses are more forwards and lighter. With dressage there is more engagement/collection and more 'feeling' in the hand envolved.

When i did County Hunter classes on Bloss one thing that let me down was the fact that the judge couldnt get her to do b*gger all (she wouldnt even canter for him at my first competition!) However she will quite happily go out and do a 70%+ novice open dressage test with me

 

[FMM]

Show horses need to be able to give ANYONE a good ride. A horse with its head cranked down won't give a good ride, so although you can get away with ponies doing this, as soon as a judge gets on, this just won't work.

We bought a horse from Michel Assouline and took him straight into top level showing. I expect all my horses to go in the same way as this horse did. All our horses compete at dressage although not affiliated as we don't have the time or money. Having said that, Bob (the cob in my avatar) has just been registered with British Dressage with a disabled rider to do the upcoming trials (to replace a horse that went lame). So if a HW cob at the age of 18 is considered suitable by top para people for dressage having shown all its life, there can't be THAT much difference between this and a dressage horse.

Also, bear in mind people like Jo Bates are incredibly successful at BOTH disciplines - as is Judy Bradwell. Depends on what level you are talking about.

We look at dressage horses and think that half of them just don't "move" well enough for showing - we look for different things in a horse, and that is perhaps why the joie to vivre and movement we look for in a show horse may not be suitable in a dressage horse.

btw - we have a top dressage instructor down twice a week at the yard and nearly all the horses get a lesson with them.

 

[Partoow]

Many of our top ridders, aka Carl Hester, laura Richardson to name two have come from showing, it obviously helps a ridder understand presentation.As for the horse i have re-schooled quite a few show horses ,mostly working hunters to dressage. The main problem being that they simply do not understand one of the basics in the scales of training;connection. I find they are pulled in from the front and held on to the bridle rather than working infront of the leg to the hand. The result being horses too short in the neck tight, often flat steps and very crooked. Consistent with this is poor topline conformation ,that is seen when you take some of the FAT off!! oops sorry one of my pet hates the confusion with condition and fat. Prob upset lots of people now .There are always exceptions, included would be the showing lady FMM and maybe there is becoming some understanding but i certainly have'nt seen that much evidence yet. So in my humble opinion maybe if there was a greater understanding of correct basic understanding of dressage principles in the show horse/pony then they would'nt need to be so overweight?

 

[Sal_E]

Show horses have to LOOK good. Dressage horses have to BE good.

Sweeping statement, but often so true!

 

[FMM]

meant to add when Lucina rode Robo he really is quite unusual and not a "normal" horse. He won't let many people ride him at all, and I am not sure she quite knew how to ride him. He is the only "odd" one we have that doesn't do much dressage etc and spends much of his time mooching in the field and going to the park.

 

[Little_Mare]

I varies with classes but with the ridden m&ms (especially welsh and not so much with the sucessful combinations) it seems to be all about speed and massive movement in front and sod all behind! I've seen so many pushed out of balance in order to get "extended trot".

I've always schooled my pony the same for both disciplines, I have a dressage trainer who hates showing but since I am adamant that I won't compromise her correct training in order to get better results in the showring this isn't a problem. I find that many showing judges do appreciate an exhibit that is working properly but unfortunately not all of them...

 

[custard]

. I find they are pulled in from the front and held on to the bridle rather than working infront of the leg to the hand. The result being horses too short in the neck tight, often flat steps and very crooked. Consistent with this is poor topline conformation ,that is seen when you take some of the FAT off!! oops sorry one of my pet hates the confusion with condition and fat.

Absolutely, exactly what i was thinking spot on!!

 

[Bananaman]

I'd agree wholeheartedly with you FMM.

I think one of the nicest rides I've ever had as a show judge was Jo's Daytona at the AHS Nat Champs. I just didn't want to get off!

Horses SHOULD be able to be trained to be able to do the two disciplines but a lack of understanding re. what is required for each discipline is often the reason they fail.
I believe that the top show producers do produce horses going correctly along the lines for dressage but they are sadly in the minority imo.
Richard and Marjory Ramsay, for example, were at the BD National Convention last year.

The movement desired for dressage is more elevated with a more pronounced knee action than for showing where the longer, lower action is prefered.
I say, desired for dressage, because dressage is more about training rather than action but of course, if you've the elevated paces, you've got a head start!

I'd also agree with partoow re. show rider's presentation. I'm a long way off being a top rider but have been complimented time and time again on my ringcraft skills, the use of the arena and the way I present my test.
I am sure that's come from my time in the show ring.

 

[FMM]

I should be shot! I didn't even think to mention Marjorie and Richard. I started riding with them when I was about 5 years old, and more recently they produced some of our show horses. They were involved in training some of the young riders for the BYRDS team, and they expect all their horses to go as correctly as possible for any discipline. Richard was a successful 3 day eventer in his day, and they both trained with someone famous whose name completely escapes me!

 

[Pasha]

I also agree with you FMM - I actually only have a dressage trainer and when I went to a recent showing clinic I got pulled in second (on a 20yr old Arab vs a 5yr old Oldenburg Medium level dressage horse)! Im my eye there is the correct way for the horse to go and that's it, regardless of discipline - you just use the appropriate tools in the box that is required at the time - i.e. shortening and lengthening strides etc

Btw last years Arab national champion competes Medium level BD!

xx

 

[JLav]

I ride a coloured dressage horse who is just starting to compete Advanced Medium and have also shown him at county level.

I have had different responses from different judges including one very well known and senior show judge who, after riding him, said he was moving him down the line as he was 'too dressagey'!!

A second well known judge moved him right up to 2nd from 8th after the ride saying what a pleasure it was to ride a truly well schooled horse who bends and moves laterally off the leg.

As a dressage judge and trainer I thought most of the show horses appeared to be rather stiff, especially in the canter, where they seem to be crooked and tight over the back. Flying changes, if performed were usually flat and often late behind which doesn't seem to matter and they often bend the wrong way round corners!!

As always there are also some who look supple and elastic and, to me, more correct. (Though possibly still rather overweight??)

 

[amandaco2]

show horse can tend to be schooled very much flatter longer and overbent compared to most dressage horses, with very tense jaws and necks and more on the forehand.
however show horses movement is wanted to be much flatter and with less power suspension in the pace and dishing is very much frowned upon(whereas for a dressage horse a slight dish can be helpful for lateral movement provided the horse is straight and on the right number of tracks)
not all of them im sure there are a few dressage horses trained that way but generally speaking thats what ive seen.
been a few yards producing and they are more concerned with feeding horses up,keeping them in to fizz them up and cranking the head round and in rather than more sympathetic and correct for dressage.i could have just seen the worse on them though!!

 

[SpruceRI]

Just returned from the Ponies UK Winter Champs at Towerlands and was surprised at the difference the kids (didn't really watch the adults) ride, to how they do in dressage/Riding Club stuff.

They seemed to ride from the knee, sitting at the back of the saddle, and the lower legs just dangled ineffectively. They all seemed to tug constantly on the outside rein, either presumably because the pony felt like it was falling in, or to keep them on the bit. They looked pretty, but that way proved to be ineffectual when the pony was naughty. The kids either just toppled off or struggled to keep the pony going forward if it napped or spooked.

Really enjoyed watching everything though. so many beautiful ponies. Bliss!