Different way of moving since going barefoot-reassurance needed

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Fifty Bales of Hay

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Its been nearly 6 weeks since we pulled the front shoes off, and 12 weeks since the backs came off. We have very very underrun heels, on both front and back, worse on the front. When shod my farrier fitted shoes with small extensions out the back to help with heel support (as he doesn't have any really).

We had a bit of a setback due to injury but put the horse back into work a couple of weeks ago. And I can see he is moving so much better and with boots in the field, nothing in the school, his feet I think look good. We hack out with boots on, and he is walking down the hill so much better than he was with shoes on. I can visibly see we have a flat or a marginally heel first landing already, with or without boots on.

BUT - if we do any trot work he isn't too happy initially although improves, and then the following morning there is a slight swelling upwards from the fetlock joint. This goes down with a either cold hosing, or with turnout - even riding him at walk reduces it.

So reassurance needed at this point - is this normal? Is it because he has such compromised heels and now he is working his foot correctly its pulling on ligaments/tendons in the legs that haven't been stretched due to years of toe first landing?

Has anyone seen this happen when first going barefoot due to the difference in their way of going?
 
My mare had very under-run heels when she first went BF. It does sound to me like you are taking things much quicker than I did. At 6 weeks post de shoeing I think I was still walking her in-hand on comfortable surfaces (of which stone free tarmac was one - I even had to sweep one section of the lane to enable this).
 
Thanks both - yes that's what I have done for now, restricted him to walking only, either in the school or out hacking on the road. Faracat was that "with" or "without" hoof boots you had to do that? We are in boots for walking him out on the roads, as he has to wear them in the field at the moment anyway due to the dry and uneven ground.
 
No never seen that, although we have been a LOT more patient than 6 weeks.

When i pulled the shoes off the worst hoofed horse, we trimmed regularly and made the tiniest changes and from October to January all I did was walk in-hand and t/o 24/7. We walked on tarmac mostly. Then started to hack on tarmac in the january for a few months and only started working in the school in the May.

That term "don't run before you can walk" should apply here.

Why are you in such a rush? I think perhaps you could do some more research into the biomechanics of the hoof in order to understand the hoof structures better so you can better gauge when to start work and when it's time to let things settle and grow.
 
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p.s. have you got a good equine podiatrist working with you? IME you need someone very experienced in barefoot transitions and the podiatrists in the UK are very highly trained in biomechanics so they would help you.
 
I can't remember how long I left it, shoes came off April, don't think we trotted until the August, after some rain although it was a generally damp summer. He certainly wouldn't have wanted to trot on hard ground until some point beyond that, well even know he is a bit protective on tarmac. We only did straight lines too until the 6 month point.

Overall yes they do start moving differently, which is why it is important to keep up with physio etc.
 
Underrun heels = very delicate feet. From your description I would advise first 6 weeks complete rest, and probably only light in hand work for the next 6 weeks.
 
No sorry I don't have an equine podiatrist working with me - I am feeling my own way in this with help from others on here. All horses are different and some you wouldn't even know you'd taken them out of shoes. So how was I to know this horse wasn't "one of them" without trying out a few things.

If I'm not experienced enough to know what and how my horse is feeling, then perhaps I'd best put him back in shoes?
 
I guess the thing is that he has now told you he can't cope.

My basis was that until his new growth angle hit the ground his feet were going to be pretty suboptimal to be asking much of, his breakover would be extended (which was an issue for him with a coffin joint DJD diagnosis) and therefore the chances of generating more inflammation were increased, that and the back of his hoof wasn't terribly functional or supportive and he wasn't landing heel first to start, so all of that was taken as information as to when to progress.

not good focus but this is a 16 week hoof, we may just have been trotting on good flat softish ground at this point.
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This is 22/23 weeks we were probably just cantering for short periods on straight, flat, good ground as that was the september and Frank had become and remained sound.

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They did stop being quite so flat eventually!
 
No boots as she was happy without them. If she had needed them, she would have had them as I firmly believe that step one is getting the horse comfortable and then doing what movement you can within that comfort bubble. As the bubble expands, you can do more, but always go at the horse's pace. :)
 
Thank you Ester, yes he has told me - and more importantly I have listened. And come on here to seek more help, or to reassure myself as to the way forward.

Your pictures and progress report and explaining about the angle of new hoof growth hitting the floor makes complete sense, so this will be my next thing to look for.

I guess if he'd been unsound in shoes then I would have expected the soundness to have taken quite a while. But as I started with a sound horse this was a little unexpected, but common sense told me to cut back on the work he's doing, and take it steadier.
 
AMP said:
No sorry I don't have an equine podiatrist working with me - I am feeling my own way in this with help from others on here. All horses are different and some you wouldn't even know you'd taken them out of shoes. So how was I to know this horse wasn't "one of them" without trying out a few things.

If I'm not experienced enough to know what and how my horse is feeling, then perhaps I'd best put him back in shoes?
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True enough and sorry - I didn't mean to be so critical... forgive me.

I think you're doing incredibly well without help. I guess because I had an EP from before the shoes even came off, I felt more confident. I will try and post photos of mine...

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this was 7 months apart... and by this time we were doing ht and unaff ode. He came 3rd in one comp and was better than the shod horse in our doubles! Good things come to those who are obessed with feet :D

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tallyho! said:
p.s. have you got a good equine podiatrist working with you? IME you need someone very experienced in barefoot transitions and the podiatrists in the UK are very highly trained in biomechanics so they would help you.
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I agree with Tallyho, a good EP would be able to help you a lot, they use a usabilty score system, which will tell you how much you can expect to do at the stage your horse's feet are at.
 
Its no good people even suggesting an EP - as I haven't got one, don't intend to get one, and do not want one.

If it's not going to be possible to do this on my own, using common sense, and 45 years of horse experience and the help of my absolutely fabulous farrier, and helpful posts from others on here - then I'll give up gracefully and pop his shoes back on and we'll just carry on as before.

Unless anyone can tell me how to do the usability score system myself? It can't be that complicated?
 
TBF people suggesting that didn't know that was your thought on them, they are just seeing you struggling a bit and trying to help. Pines of rome managed to get her particularly difficult chap much improved and comfortable out of shoes at home with the help of an excellent EP who used to post on here but sadly doesn't any longer and I suspect she knows how tricky she had it at times and how much she appreciated Lucy's assistance with the whole of his management. The only reason people are pro barefoot is because it has worked for them and often brought a horse back from lameness issues for them but equally they do all know that in the first instance it was a bit of a slog and required some patience and a fair amount of worry and took a while to reap that effort back again, but for the most part we have.

There was a reason you took this horse barefoot, I am sure your farrier could also improve his feet shod but you will get quicker, better, longer lasting improvements out of shoes but that is up to you if you want to take the time over it. The fact that he is struggling a bit does at least tell you his feet are fairly suboptimal as they stand though.

I don't know about the score system so cannot help on that.
 
Fair comments ester, but there are lots of people who do survive the battle going barefoot without an EP I am sure. I'm not really struggling as such, just wanted a bit of advice and reassurance with my journey.

My farrier can also improve his feet, in or out of shoes, he really is that good. Its just I know it's going to be quicker going barefoot, and I am not in any hurry, just never knew how long each stage took.
 
ok maybe not struggling but worrying a bit ;) and those above knew that when they were in a similar situ their EP was on the end of the phone while we flapped at them (my own farrier said he wasn't into it ;) ) Also remember not everyone will have read the previous so iirc your farrier is pretty pro barefoot/suggested boots etc and if he saw the horse would likely just say what we have said now, ie give him a bit more time.
Believe me, even with loads of experience the whole thing can still be a bit of a learning curve and even now feet surprise me with what they do :), and then you can take it special interest/geek level ;).
As always you know we are always happy to look at pics and comment, though also knowing that pics neither tell the whole story and we aren't pros, just have an unhealthy level of interest.
 
pines of rome said:
I agree with Tallyho, a good EP would be able to help you a lot, they use a usabilty score system, which will tell you how much you can expect to do at the stage your horse's feet are at.
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The important thing is to listen to the horse.

I've seen a nationally renouned EP score a horse's feet and say he was ready for a bit of light hacking. The horse was already hunting two days a week. I've got a horse here who would score very badly due to tiny frogs which are never in contact with the ground, low heels and long toes. He is sound on the toughest possible surfaces.

The scoring system used by people trained by La Pierre (generally referred to as EPs) is a guide to work levels only, and, ime, a pretty inaccurate one. Its principle use, imo, is to measure structural improvement fairly objectively and to reassure the owner.
 
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ycbm said:
The important thing is to listen to the horse.

I've seen a nationally renouned EP score a horse's feet and say he was ready for a bit of light hacking. The horse was already hunting two days a week. I've got a horse here who would score very badly due to tiny frogs which are never in contact with the ground, low heels and long toes. He is sound on the toughest possible surfaces.

The scoring system used by people trained by La Pierre (generally referred to as EPs) is a guide to work levels only, and, ime, a pretty inaccurate one. Its principle use, imo, is to measure structural improvement fairly objectively and to reassure the owner.
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:D Very true... It isn't meant to be accurate but it does base itself in the realms of "knowns" and generous dollops of common-sense and humour. Heck my 3yo would have been able to go ODE and drive a carriage at one stage!! :D

However, the knowns were: Great hoof strength, no disease, thick sole, no pulses, good cartilage function and sound on all ground in walk and trot (and incidentally canter). It's is at the most designed to give an indication of hoof health. At least it's written down and you have a record of progress. It has it's good points.


AMP - respect that you want to make this work. We're always here for you. If you'd like some suggestions on useful reading, do look up Pete Ramey, Jaime Jackson, Nic Barker, Katy Watts (nutrition) Dr Deb Bennet and look on the EPAUK website too - usually resources there. It's a start. Pete and Jaime were farriers and really got the barefoot thing going and Pete's website is full of info. It's been 6 years for me on this journey... can't imagine shoeing a horse again (never say never!) I now largely trim myself and my EP comes and checks my work to make sure we're not heading off into any stray angles. All you can do is arm yourself with knowledge and thank goodness that it's largely available for us all.

The horse that got me here was a chronic laminitic that after having shoes taken off and his diet sorted, lived out 24/7 all year round and competed.

I'll sing if you want me to! ;)
 
From the sounds of it, I'm not missing out a lot on not having the scoring done then on his feet. I am better to observe and just listen to my horse I think? He knows how he feels, and I just have to make him comfortable, whatever that takes.

Thanks for all the links on reading up, I've come across some of these names already. Always eager to learn more.

What I do find difficult is conflicting things I read - like "you should see a difference or improvement in 3-5 weeks" and "walk them for 3-4 miles a day" are these things true?
 
I certainly saw a difference/improvement after 5 weeks, but it is piecemeal if that makes sense and the good changes you see higher up are going to take a while to come down, and the frog needs to be comfortable and strong enough for engagement to get heel first landing before you proceed too much otherwise you are putting pressure on the wrong mechanics. If the horse is landing heel first he is using that heel correctly and encouraging everything at the back of the foot to strengthen up and every step will be good for them. If they aren't at that stage too much is just going to make things worse.
Currently the more mileage F's do the better they get, they are having an enforced rest at the moment and are requiring a lot more input from me, frogs are ratty etc.
How far you walk them does depend on your situation, they need to do what they can cope with, no more otherwise you aren't improving the important bits.

some 5 week changes pics for you, actually the most interesting are the ones I have take from the back of the foot, but I am struggling to find the right time points in focus!

shoes off
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5 weeks - you can see the much tighter line growing at the top
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shoes off
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5 weeks - his frogs struggled to even up for a bit as had been in bar shoes.
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3 months difference is best I can do but it was visible beforehand and was the most important thing for him to do as his heels were underun and his pedal bone was flat.
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AMP said:
From the sounds of it, I'm not missing out a lot on not having the scoring done then on his feet. I am better to observe and just listen to my horse I think? He knows how he feels, and I just have to make him comfortable, whatever that takes.

Thanks for all the links on reading up, I've come across some of these names already. Always eager to learn more.

What I do find difficult is conflicting things I read - like "you should see a difference or improvement in 3-5 weeks" and "walk them for 3-4 miles a day" are these things true?
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I think it depends where your baseline is. If the feet are still long and heels contracted then maybe 3-4 miles is pie in the sky.

My tactic was to just turnout for a few months and see how the heel developed. What you are looking for is some lateral cartilage, just above the heels - fat heel bulbs I would describe it. Then you could start walking in hand and see where you go from there. Tarmac is practically the best surface for building up strength so if you have a stretch handy, just start from 10 mins twice a day and see how far you can go in-hand walk and trot then get your leg over and do a bit more if comfortable. Could be a week... could be a month.
 
Well we don't have any heel growth yet, and not sure about how to test the lateral cartlidge. I will ask my farrier when he comes out to see me in about 10 days time to show me what to look for. We have fat heel bulbs but they are miles away from where his heels are. The heels are sort of curling over on the edges at the back. So maybe we aren't even ready to start walking yet?

The differences I have seen is it's growing much tighter down from the top now. And in boots he is landing flat or heel first as against a toe first landing. Out hacking he is stomping down the hills whereas before with shoes he really slowed up and took his time going down a hill.
 
AMP said:
Well we don't have any heel growth yet, and not sure about how to test the lateral cartlidge. I will ask my farrier when he comes out to see me in about 10 days time to show me what to look for. We have fat heel bulbs but they are miles away from where his heels are. The heels are sort of curling over on the edges at the back. So maybe we aren't even ready to start walking yet?

The differences I have seen is it's growing much tighter down from the top now. And in boots he is landing flat or heel first as against a toe first landing. Out hacking he is stomping down the hills whereas before with shoes he really slowed up and took his time going down a hill.
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What you describe hacking is just how my old boy was. So glad the shoes came off!

If you get chance to take photos, upload them to photobucket, copy the IMG code then paste on here. Would be great to see how they're looking :)
 
You're ready to walk if he's comfortable walking.

And if he's not, boot and pad up until you find the point where he is, and work him.

Some horses don't improve until they work.

I bought two unbroken four year olds and both had seriously underrun heels. Only work sorted them out.

Digital cushion can be seen in the height of the hairline at the back of the foot, and in how straight it is. It shouldn't dip in the middle.

For the lateral cartilage, look at the foot from the front. See where there is a 'shoulder' at the heel as the hoof turns into the pastern. Feel that 'shoulder' and you will find the lateral cartilage. It should be thick and firmly held in place. In a weak foot, it's thinner and you can pick it up and wobble it about. There's one on each side.
 
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I've never had an EP or indeed a farrier I've done it all myself. There's a great scoring system and you've already got it - listening to the horse and doing what it can do comfortably.

I've taken loads BF now and I've realised its really not that complicated (leaving those with metabolic issues aside as that is going to be trickier to deal with). Their feet grow every day. You can alter their feet every day by a minimally tiny amount just by them walking around on them.

With your horse having such poor feet / no heels I would be tempted not to do much with boots on as you could easily over do it. I would do as much as he is comfortable with without boots, that might just be walking around the school in hand, daily. I would rather do 10 mins daily than 20 mins alternate days.

The sooner he can be turned out without boots the sooner he can start to really improve. It all takes time. However the more he can make his own feet, so comfy walking without boots on a surface which is abrasive enough to shorten his feet but not cause him pain (smooth tarmac ideal if you've got some) rather than have them dictated by the farrier, I think the better he will be. Even a sand school is abrasive to a point, gives mine a nice polish when we go there for a clinic!

Just my observations. Main thing is diet, consistency, avoiding pain, thrush and pain by trimming. Oh and not panicking.
 
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