Different whistle commands advice please?

[The wife]

Hi everybody,

My initial question is: How do you teach a dog the difference between whistle commands? The dog is only young and still learning his trade, everything is always kept very fun and we have not moved onto something else until he is 110% confident and happy with the command.

We have the 'call-back' whistle to a Tee, even if he sees me pick the whistle up he'll come back immediately and even on a scent run he'll come back. This is great, however, I would like to start teaching a 'stay' whistle but we are struggling. I use 2 sharp toots on the whistle to come back and 1 longer whistle for stay. I initially implemented this using the spoken 'stay' command, followed by my whistle. If I am next to him or up to 10 yards away from him he'll stay exactly where he is and I can walk away as far as a like and he'll stay there until I give the 'call-back' whistle, however any further away than 10 yards he instantly comes back to me. I have tried increasing the distance between us literally step by step and I can get to the 10 yard point and he'll just come straight back. Is it just a case of consistency and carrying on what I am doing? When he comes back when i have asked for stay, I ignore him, carry on walking and ask for it again a little while later. Is this the correct thing to do? I have tried walking him back to the point in which I asked him to stay and ask again and he'll do it because I'm near him. The only time I have an issue is when asking from a distance. Does anybody have any tips? Or am I going about this the wrong way?

Bit of background, if anybody is interested?

I have a wonderful 14month old, male, yellow lab. The young fella is incredibly intelligent, fit, bold and exuberant! (A typical pup really). He is a jack of all trades really, a loving home pet primarily, a yard dog for my horses second but the husband and I enjoy a few days shooting during the season so would be lovely if he could come out on the shooting field too. He is not a natural retriever but we are not too worried about this at the moment, he is still only young and I am confident it will come with time. He much prefers to 'hunt' out and send up and we like to keep things very fun and low key.

Now a bit of background... I have never trained a gun dog before until this little fella. I have trained horses all my life and have been using similar methods for this little fella - the husband has trained a fair few field dogs and we have slightly different views on how they should be trained, however as the dog spends 99% of his life with me, I followed my training instincts and have the husbands full support of this to allow for consistent training with him.

To date he knows all of the basics, will sit and stay while I walk away and I can guarantee that unless i called or whistled him he would stay exactly where I put him. He'll come to the whistle 9/10 immediately and I can confidently call him off hares/rabbits etc, the only time he is a bit sticky with a call back is if he is playing with another dog and generally as I walk closer to him and call/whistle he'll remember that he was supposed to come back. I can walk him off the lead calmly around other dogs, occasionally he'll 'nip' off for a play but only if provoked with another dog. He is still a pup so minor mis-demeanours like this I do not mind so much as I am really loathed to steady him too much due to his age. I have never been hard on this dog, nor has he treated with tit bits for good behavior - he will occasionally get a treat if he has done something outstanding, he is just naturally very willing to please and does it for a happy word or a play.

I took him for an hour and half beating twice last season, initially on a long line, more for experience and after the initial exuberance, he was impeccably behaved and after an hour he was off the lead and putting some of the older dogs to shame with his general demeanor and natural 'hunt' instinct. He thoroughly enjoyed the day and learnt alot without too much pressure from either of us.

I am so incredibly proud of this young dog and will always do the best by him, hence I am asking for the advice. I appreciate for only 14months old he is probably doing very well and knows more than other dogs that are several months older but we have only worked at his pace and everything has been done for fun and cuddles.

Sarah

 

[Dry Rot]

Sorry, haven't read all of your post but I get the jist!

"Commands" (I prefer "triggers") can be chained in any way you want. You teach the dog to Sit by voice. Then say Sit and raise your hand. The dog hears your voice and sits. Far quicker than you will believe, you can drop the voice and he will sit to the hand signal. Same applies to other triggers. For a gundog, I'd chain the Sit to the hand signal, whistle, sound of a shot, flushing game. whatever you want. If you are consistent, they catch on very quickly.

Don't teach Stay but (for a Lab) Sit. Sit means stay until I give you permission to move. So it also means Stay! Use one command/trigger for one action, not several as I have seen, as it merely complicates things.

Attach a long light cord to your dog's collar. Run the cord around a solid object (e.g. a post). If you take hold of the end of the cord, you can now prevent your dog from running towards you. Give the Sit trigger and hold the cord to prevent the dog coming towards you. When he does go down, go up to him, scratch his ears and tell him what a good boy he is. Gently remove the cord as you stroke him and walk him off.

Here's another trick. Drive a few pegs firmly into the ground in the field where you train. Attach about three or four yards of light cord to your dog's collar and make a loop on the end. Now walk your dog to one of the pegs and tell him to Sit. Drop the loop over the peg, repeat the word SIT, and walk off. The dog will come to a sudden halt as the cord tightens when he tries to follow. Repeat until he gets the message that Sit does mean Sit! Try and be as casual about putting/taking the cord off the peg as you can. Then repeat occasionally without the cord -- but with it ready in your pocket for when it's needed. Don't forget to release the dog from the Sit or it will move when it decides!

A piece of string is by far the most powerful training aid a trainer has the use of. I find the cord used in a small baler ideal. It is light and cheap and I can leave suitable lengths lying about where I'll need them.

Next, go to your local library and smile nicely at the librarian and ask if she has any good books on gundog training. If she hasn't, she can get them for you via Inter Library Loan for the cost of postage alone. Then you won't need to come here and get bad advice!

 

[PorkChop]

I have spaniels, so use a different sequence in their training to what you probably do with labs - because mine have a quarter and hunt command I use lots of pips for recall and two pips for quartering.

Essentially I use the whistle when they exhibit the behaviour that I want - so I would teach the voice command, then the hand command and then the whistle command. For example sit, then add the hand signal immediately after the word sit, once both those commands are solid I will usually use the voice command followed immediately by the whistle command - I use a long whistle for this.

Sit/stay/stop are all on this one whistle command. Then it is just repetition, and once solid up close I start introducing distance.

Tbh at 14 months I would expect a working dog to be solid on all the whistle commands, so I wouldn't worry about pushing on a bit with the training.

Though have to say if your husband has trained dogs, he is probably the best person to ask

Also I never, ever use recall from sit/stay/stop - ever - always go back to the dog - hope you have fun next season

 

[The wife]

Thank alot both of you and for taking the time to put such detailed replies. I have read chapters from various books about whistle commands and haven't found one yet that answered my question, however, I will certainly try what you have suggested with the cord and will drop the 'stay' as to be honest I'm not even sure why I say it!

LJR, the husband and I have different views on training. He was somewhat very hard on his dogs and so I generally don't ask for his help on things with this particular dog as he has never had a hand raised to him and I don't want him to start now.

With regards to solid whistle commands at this age, really? Several people, even the husband has commented on how well he is progressing (or perhaps they were being kind to me as this is my first dog! I feel like one of those 'novice riders' that I used to roll my eyes at when it came to really simple questions and have since gained more patience with them since becoming a novice dog trainer!) I'll continue to crack on then

As you described with regards to the exhibiting of behaviour, he is solid to the hand and voice 'sit' command from a distance just not the whistle. Just thinking about it I think perhaps my timing may be out then as on an after thought if I can get him to do these things from a distance using hand and voice then there is no reason why he couldn't do it from a whistle... Is there any reason why I couldn't use both methods using a piece of cord to keep him where he is and exhibit the hand/voice command and use the whistle when he does as a require?

Hmmmm, quite excited about trying a new tact. Many thanks for your patience and time

 

[minesadouble]

My advice would be find out if you have a good pro gundog trainer near you and use them. We take our Vizsla to a gundog trainer and the help she has given us is invaluable.

Edited to add it's also great fun for both the handler and the dog

 

[Thistle]

Have a look at FB pages 'Gundog training for novices' and 'positive gundoogs'

 

[Dry Rot]

There are as many ways to train a dog as there are to skin a cat (if that is your 'thing'!).

I always teach calling off the drop/sit/down/whatever as it should be very easy to stop a dog running towards you with a hand signal. Some actions require encouragement, others require compulsion. Dogs do not generally like to Sit or Drop, so there is an element of compulsion to training this successfully. If, for example, you teach the Sit by giving treats, that's fine until something more attractive than your treat diverts the dog's attention, e.g. a bolting rabbit or the flapping of a winged pheasant. Compulsion doesn't mean a beating, just the unfulfilled suggestion that if they don't comply, the heavens will open and a thunderbolt will strike them dead!

To instil your whistled Sit command, simply use your voice, hand signal, and whistle as close to each other as possible, then gradually drop the ones you don't want. Simples!

There were about thirty dogs in this shot, most of them dropped, but we couldn't get them all in frame!

 

[PorkChop]

Like Dry Rot has said there are many ways to train a gundog, and of course I have spaniels so I realise the training differs slightly.

For example going on a slip lead is the last thing I teach - and probably not properly! - however friends that have labs often start on the lead The key with gundogs is keeping the drive whilst putting in the obedience

 

[The wife]

LJR, I agree with you completely on this - I have been around the shooting fraternity for a fair few years and have seen some animals that are so 'drilled' they have become machines, dogs that are so frightened they are doing their job from fear and pups that have been taken too young they are gun-shy, had the brains blown and had so much of the field that by 2, it's no longer fun and they're not that bothered about it anymore. I don't want that for this lad, shooting is our hobby, if we get 4 days a year in we would be doing well, it's just nice to have a dog that loves the sport as much as we do and will behave when it comes to it.

I tried the light cord Dry Rot and actually had some good results with it, so thank you. I also used my 'pawing on the ground voice' usually reserved for youngsters when he moved and he nearly crapped himself but it worked and he stopped dead when he made a move towards me- even before he got to the end of the cord. I've got an abundance of green garden twine so just played around in the garden and received some very solid results after about 5 attempts. Just by doing a little bit a couple of times a day, he is learning very quickly and I can now go to the 20yard mark and he'll sit instantly. Granted I haven't tried it anywhere else yet as haven't asked for it loose as don't want to get a bad habit creeping in again but for now I am delighted with the results and he knows it

Thanks again for the advice, we're making steady progress