Difficult youngster, dificult decision, please help

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joben

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I'll try to be brief. I bought a 4yo 4 months ago with the idea of bringing him on to event. He is ISH x KWPN 16.2hh, very classy looking with 3 excellent paces and a fantastic jumping technique. He really looks the part and I was very excited.
For the first 3 months adfter buying him, everything went well- he was schooling well, we started SJ and he easily pops 90cms from trot and canter in a very relaxed way. He was hacking on his own and schooled sucessfully around an intro BE course. He has done a few Prelim tests and came 6th at his first 80cms ODE. It was all going so well and my 'potential superstar' was on track.

Then we went to the PAVO at West Wilts and had a disaster- was blatently too much too soon for him. He napped (for the first time) for 30 mins in the dressage warm up and then finished his day by refusing to go near the 3rd showjump.
since then he has napped on various occasions- when I want him to go in a dirction that he doesn't fancy! At first he was just mini bronking on the spot but now has progressed to full blown tantrums- stamping his feet, kicking out and rearing 3/4 way up. I've tried not to make it into too much of a big deal but I have shouted at him, kicked him and used the stick- just makes him more angry. After a while he generally gives in and continues as if butter wouldn't melt. I'd make the decision to try to avoid any potential napping situations but yesterday he napped on the way from the yard to the school. I kicked him and he put his head down and bucked until I came off. My confidence is now thouroughly dented and I don't know what to do.
Options
1. Laugh it off and keep trying although not really sure what I can do if he bucks me off everytime he feels like it- especially now that I'm going to be nervous all the time.
2. Turn him away for a long holiday- not really sure how this will help.
3. Send him to someone who is happy to work through this problem i.e someone braver than myself
4. Send him to a professional event rider to see if they can improve the attitude- because the talent is all there. Would a prof. be interested in him? how much would they charge me? anyone you recomend in the SW.

At the moment I'm gutted and feel a complete failure because I can't deal with it myself, I'm just not as brave as I used to be and tbh don't want to keep falling off- it hurts! I presume I can't sell him as he is?? I feel a bit of a wimp but I work full time and this is my hobby that is meant to be enjoyable- at the moment it's just scarey and stressfull. If I persevere I may hurt myself.

I'm really interested in your views. What to most people do when their horse naps and throws them off? Do they just keep getting back on or do they sell up and start again? Now that he's found the ultimate way to avoid work, is he likely to keep doing it?

PS His teeth and back are fine, he's simply being a cocky and powerful git!
 
Is he buy Carnaval Drum? Sounds just like a horse that I had
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I would turn him away for a month or so to start with. If he's still naughty when you bring him back into work then I'd send him to a pro.
 
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What is the rationale for turning them away? Is it to cool the brain down?
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Could you recomend a pro that may be interested?

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Yep definitely helps them get out of a rut. Maybe he's just a bit brain zonked and needs some thinking time. Sometimes it can break the cycle and they come back in forgetting how naughty they used to be! Odd things, horses are!

I'd say he could come to us but I know that I'd end up riding him
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Turn him away and then bring him back and act as though he is just backed for another month then crack on - yes, his brain needs to cool down and he needs to digest all he has learnt!
 
oh you have a quirky one but they are the best !!!

right maybe instead of getting on by the stables get on in the school (so you have a soft landing) - you could even get someone to lead you around to start with !! get lots of lessons and a trainer that is happy to work with you and help you - dont think there is any point sending him away as he knows that its YOU he can get away with this with ?? If you say once its over he returns to work fine then persevere !!! he will learn xx

My baby threw a temper tantrum when i changed his bit - have you changed any tack or anything lately ??? x
 
If he's only four and part ISH, then my bet is he needs more time to mature. I would turn him away for at least part of the winter and then like someone else said, start him slowly from zero again - and make it fun for him. The ISH part likes fun and can't take as much disciplined or concentrated schooling and pressure as well as a warmblood, usually, as you've found out, they have a brain!
 
Send him to Lucy Wiegersma.. no she wont end up riding him, someone else probably will, but i can 100% assure you that they will sort him out!! and give you back your nice smart Badminton pot. eventer.

I know this is going to sound harsh and not very nice, and i'm ready for everyone to jump on me for saying it... but i watched him in the dressage warm up at West Wilts, and it looks like nothing that a darn good thrashing wont sort out (i'm not going to answer anyone who doesn't agree with me)..
He looked like a young horse seeing how far he could push things, and he's obviously found out that he can push a long way..
 
I think he has done too much too soon, it seems a classic case of he's been good so i'm gonna do more, give him a break and let him digest his learning and be a youngster, like the other posts have said he needs time to mature and hopefully he will enjoy his work again. I have a horse like this and he won't be hurried either so I know how frustrating it can be especially when as you say they have ability. Good luck i'm sure it will come good for you in the end.
 
Deep down half of me thinks agrees with you but I'm not brave enough to do it because i've found out that if I argue with him, then I end up on the floor with bruises. A good thrashing can be sucseful if you end up winning but if he fights back, i think an even bigger issue is created. what do you do then- thrash him harder for longer??? The other half of me thinks we should be able to work around it without creating that kind of battle. I'm interested in your opinion because you saw him in action- it's actually got a lot more exciting than that unfortunately!!!
 
I have a mare who has just started doing this. KWPN - beautiful, well produced etc. I think she's trying it on.

Tried the softly softly and nothing. As MissDeMeena I am now putting myself in the firing line but going to say it anyway. Hitting her with a crop just seemed to make her cross and make her worse (think stroppy teenager). However.... hitting her a bit harder worked. Not getting after her all the time, but a smart smack and then calm again.

I am NOT advising you to flog your horse
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but sometimes I think if a smart horse (and my mare is v canny) has been in a home for a while (she's been with me 3 months) then they try and see what they can get away with...

That said, she's a mare so is different from one day to the next anyway!
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It is a difficult one, as you don't want to start anything you can't finish, i agree with that one, therefore if your nerves have been battered too much by him, i'd serriously think of sending him to somewhere like the Wiegersma's...

The other thing is to beat him before he even starts.. i have one here at the mo who naps to the left.. unable to leave the yard on his own before, i now make him ride out on his own with poor mum walking behind with a lunge whip.. the first 2 days he whiped round too quick for me to do anything from on-top other than shout "now" at mum, who would get him with the lunge whip, he very quickly found out that there were far scarier monsters behind him than there were infront of him...
I now ride him in a very relaxed fashion but with my stick still turned round, and if he even twitches an ear backwards, he gets a wallop.. he is now no longer thinking backwards but walking out the yard very relaxed and confidantly!!
It's like the more i tell him off, the more he relaxes.. horses are a pack animal and like to be told what to do..

Another saying i was told.. "the difference between pro and am riders? am's like to be friends with their horses, where as pro's just get on with it"

I did feel very sorry for you at West Wilts
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.. and i wrote a long reply in your origional post about it (can't remember exactly what i wrote)..
I felt there was nothing you could do about it at the time.. but to me he was taking the piss, he didn't look worried about anything he just didn't want to go forwards..
I know alot of people hate having someone on the floor with a lunge whip, as they often don't trust that person, as they need very good timing!! but it might just help you, as you can forget about beating him, and just hold on tight while someone else does it for you.. then after a few times like that, you can then have a go yourself from on top...

(i've rushed my reply.. sorry, will be back again later and will try and re word a few bits..)
 
If it were mine I'd boot him out in a field until atleast March and then start right from scratch with him and if necessary send him to someone who is quiet and confident and use to dealing with difficult horses. I wouldn't send him to a proff eventer as it sounds like he needs a breather rather than upping the work.
 
I did have a problem with my youngster at the weekend who napped at the gate of the indoor arean (first time indoors) and was told my someone to punch him in the head - which i think is a little over the top !!!! but he did get told off harshly after rearing vertical - and didnt do it again !!!

will see if he trys at another venue though !!
 
I would be worried about turning him away as he could come back stronger and you will still feel the same, worried about hitting the deck without dealing with the issues. My 4 year old is going through this at the moment, and it really does test your nerve!
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I personally would send him away to a professional you trust, get him back, establish your confidence with him again and then look to turn him away for a few months when his memories will be positive ones. JMO though, its an age where a lot can go wrong unfortunately. Loads of luck with him, he sounds fab, this is prob just a little blip!
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Really difficult one and it comes down to wether or not hand on heart he is taking the piss or just brain fried.
I would start by turning him away for a couple of months then starting again, but if there was any sign of trouble at all I would send him to a professional at this point as it was obvious I was part if the problem.

Tough call.
 
I would advise against sending him away, instead id get a trainer in or maybe move to your trainers yard, he needs to get through this either whilst you are on his back or are there to witness him being good! Otherwise he will comeback, u wil get back on, maybe be a little wary and it'l start again.
Do you know much about his start before you had him, IE do you know for definite he was turned away after backing?
He is only 4, and whilst some take it all in their stride others just cannot deal with it at such a young age.
On the otherhand, are you sure hes not just taking the piss?
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At the moment I have a broken rib due to being bucked off a 4 year old. Although I will strap my ribs (in a few days time) and get back on, I will do so knowing this is par the course with youngsters. I am not a youngster either, but thats what happens with young sportshorses. Though, if it was a regular occurance, as yours seems to be I would give him a break then when he comes back send him away to someone who has the confidence to push him through it.

Good luck.
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[ QUOTE ]
It is a difficult one, as you don't want to start anything you can't finish, i agree with that one, therefore if your nerves have been battered too much by him, i'd serriously think of sending him to somewhere like the Wiegersma's...

The other thing is to beat him before he even starts.. i have one here at the mo who naps to the left.. unable to leave the yard on his own before, i now make him ride out on his own with poor mum walking behind with a lunge whip.. the first 2 days he whiped round too quick for me to do anything from on-top other than shout "now" at mum, who would get him with the lunge whip, he very quickly found out that there were far scarier monsters behind him than there were infront of him...
I now ride him in a very relaxed fashion but with my stick still turned round, and if he even twitches an ear backwards, he gets a wallop.. he is now no longer thinking backwards but walking out the yard very relaxed and confidantly!!
It's like the more i tell him off, the more he relaxes.. horses are a pack animal and like to be told what to do..

Another saying i was told.. "the difference between pro and am riders? am's like to be friends with their horses, where as pro's just get on with it"

I did feel very sorry for you at West Wilts
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.. and i wrote a long reply in your origional post about it (can't remember exactly what i wrote)..
I felt there was nothing you could do about it at the time.. but to me he was taking the piss, he didn't look worried about anything he just didn't want to go forwards..
I know alot of people hate having someone on the floor with a lunge whip, as they often don't trust that person, as they need very good timing!! but it might just help you, as you can forget about beating him, and just hold on tight while someone else does it for you.. then after a few times like that, you can then have a go yourself from on top...

(i've rushed my reply.. sorry, will be back again later and will try and re word a few bits..)

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I have to say i have used this appoach and with SOME horses it does work.
When they are going down the road, stand up and spin round it is not safe. They have to learn to walk forwards. A couple of sharp thwaks from my trainer soon sorted the horse in question out, and he then walked out better. Infact said horse then decided he wanted to always go forwards in the arena too.
They are too big and too powerful to decide they dont want to do something.
 
I had a mare a few years ago that used to nap and rear big time... from what you are saying and the replys mentioned i would definately say he is/or has become the leader in this relationship, i sent my mare to a national hunt trainer, and yes she had a bloody good hiding, but brian wouldnt give up, she actually went on to be a lovely mare, i would definately advise you send him away to an experienced nags man, otherwise he is just going to end up being worth meat money, the other thing you could try while you still have him is going right back to basics getting your ground work under control, also longreining is a safer way to fight your battles as you can really drive them on, without the risk of hurting yourself, funnily enough they usually react the same way on long reins as when your riding them, so perhaps try it for a few weeks until he is confidently going where ever you ask, this can definately work with some horses. Good luck and i hope you get him sorted.
 
I had the same problem about 18months ago. My TB (ex racer) at the age of 5 suddenly started rearing, stamping his feet, going backwards / sideways / doing anything that I did not want - had previously been well behaved. We found that he had 8 teeth coming through and was getting upset with the bit as he was in so much pain. I took a step back and started long lining him again - schooling, hacking out and jumping on it. We ended up doing that for about a year. We also went to shows just doing showing classes.

I completely lost my confidence with him - never previously lost this and I have sorted out a lot of 'problem' horses.

We started riding again about Feb this year just staying in the areas I felt happy with and gradually building up. I started having lessons as he then started rearing / having a strop when he thought something was boring or didn't want to do what I wanted. So we went back to doing ground work making him stand still - if he pushed forwards I made him step backwards. Now I'm riding him again - we have started to do more, he still has strops but these are getting smaller and I can control him now. My confidence has returned as I generally know what he is oing to do / cope with the strop.

I had the same questionspersonally I felt that if I sent him away yes they may sort it out but then when he came back i would still have to bond with him myself. Personally a good instructor who will not push you too far and can help with advice i found to be the best key. My instructor had gone through exactly the same thing a couple of months previous with hers so new where I was coming from.
 
I am in a very similar situation too at the moment with a very talented KWPN mare, 4 year old, 16.2hh. She has been going well but from time to time would throw a little tantrum. It was small enough for me to deal with it easily and not think about it too much as I am used to schooling naughty horses.
However, a week ago she gave me such battering she knocked my confidence great deal.
I am going to work through it with someone else on the ground and see whether we can find a solution. She is not always nappy, can be brilliant when good and I have no problems with her xc - it's the flatwork that we are on different wave lenghts with. She just tries me on and I don't like to fight with her as I end up winded on the ground if I do.

I school horses and teach for a living so this was a double blow!
Sending your horse away is a solution but I would first try to arrange for as good a help as possible and ride through it yourself.


Good luck!
 
Just to add to MissDeMeena, we sent our young boy to the Wiegersma's, although his basic groundwork was never touched on the flat, he changed from being a bolshy little git underneath you (a lamb in the stable and field) to a horse that just got on with it. In fact I was so gobsmacked at the change in him, to the point where I thought they had doped him for his first BE event
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He wasn't, he had just got used to being around a lot of horses, comings and goings and basically was so laid back about it all, amazing!!
So the Wiegersma's come with high recommendation from me.
 
Wow, poor you, lots of different advice! Still he is only 4, and he has been in work since you got him, so perhaps it is time for a breather. What are you feeding him? Maybe just give him hay for a bit, turn him out and then after a bit of a break start again, still on hay only and see how it goes.

Then, if he is still naughty, that might be the time to get someone else on his back. In his present mood "a good hiding" might turn a Kevin horse into a real problem. It is very, very difficult, especially if he bucked to get you off, that is very un-nerving.

But do the cheapest thing first - give him a break.
 
I believe that it is quite common for youngsters to be angelic for the first few months as they are still new and wide-eyed. Then, about 6 months later, they start to feel that the novelty has worn off..and start finding out where the boundaries are.
If you are not sure of yours, or what you are going to do when he's naughty, then don't ride him as it just confirms his opinions that the boundaries may not be real.
Send him to a professional. Turning him away is a good idea, but I think you need to get him a bit more submissive first...otherwise you'll spend his time off worrying about it and make yourself tense to ride him...
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I would be inclined to spend a week doing ground work, lunging him daily etc then turn him away for a bit - by spending a week or so lunging hes not 'winning' and getting a holiday due to his behavour - then when he comes back into work i would take MDM's approach and make sure he doesnt start any of the silly antics (or send him away for a short while)

that way you have covered all bases - hes had a break to make sure his brain isnt over-cooked, and your stamping out bad attitude

we had a couple of horses in the yard that i schooled and sometimes the 'assertive' approach really is the only one when they are trying it on - i had one who got a wallop just before approaching the yards gates when riding out - it was a pretentative to napping! and it worked.
 
Has he had any physical checks done? I'm not really for the amount of beating some people are advocating, depends on your opinion reall.
 
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