Difficulty training in a snaffle

[littlebranshill]

I have an 8yr old who I've had since he was 4yrs. The problem is we just can't seem to get him to accept a snaffle. He is constantly above the bit. On the odd occasion after about 30 mins we manage and he is very sweet and soft and lovely and round and using his back etc., etc but then I give him a break and let him have a stretch and when I slowly gather up the reins again we have to start from square one again and spend another 20 mins getting him to soften and accept.
When I ride him in a pelham it's a different horse. I can use the lightest of aids and he is soft, forward going and an absolute joy to ride. It's the curb I suppose - although I do NOT have this tight.
Snaffles: I have tried loose ring single jointed, loose ring french link, a neule schule french link and two Myler bits. At the moment we have gone back to using a loose ring single jointed snaffle and he seems to be slightly better in that but after a while he will get fed up with that.
I am not a competitive person anymore and am quite a competent rider (I've ridden up to Medium in the past) but all I want to do is go out and do a little prelim test without having a fight on my hands. I've backed and trained 2 previous horses in the past and haven't had this problem before.
By the way I have had his back, saddle, feet and teeth all checked out and they are all fine.
Ideas please?

 

[MrsNorris]

Eggbutt Mullen mouth?

 

[Walrus]

What mouthpiece do you have in the Pelham? There have recently been a number of ported snaffles made BD legal including the bomber happy tongue and several mylers (ml33 mouthpiece is one and ml36 I think). My pony hates anything that moves too much and likes a fixed mouthpiece like the Myler Mullen mouth, bomber happy tongue and the Myler ported bits with the fixed mouthpiece (not the comfort snaffle types which are too floppy and moveable for him).

 

[littlebranshill]

The Pelham is a single jointed. I have tried the Myler 02 and 04 - they were both fixed not loose ring.

 

[Cortez]

Compete at Elementary and use a double bridle?

 

[littlebranshill]

Yes Cortez, funnily enough I was thinking that!! I haven't tried him in a double yet.

 

[Walrus]

I didn't mean fixed cheek pieces (although my pony likes the hanging cheek), the barrel mouthpiece of the new Myler dressage legal ported bits is quite rigid, so it's not floppy. I just thought it might help if it was a ported Pelham? But as its not then maybe not, these are the ones I mean...

http://www.thehorsebitshop.co.uk/product.php?xProd=2150

http://www.thehorsebitshop.co.uk/product.php?xProd=2151

If you haven't tried a Mullen mouth or a bit that provides tongue room like the ported ones I would say it was worth a shot.

I have spoken with Emma at the horse bit shop several times and have found her very helpful.

 

[nikkimariet]

NS turtle top or tactio
Bomber lock up
Sprenger novocontact (the loose ring)

 

[Micky]

Filet baucher..or turtle top..and double check you're not using your hands too much and not enough leg signals..

 

[littlebranshill]

Thanks everyone. Certainly given me something to try!

 

[wkiwi]

Perhaps he had a bad experience with a snaffle when he was younger.
You don't say what he does (ignore it, throw head, etc.) but have you tried softening from the ground?
Stand next to him with the reins (over head) held at approx. the right line that you would have when riding and just hold until he accepts the contact without chomping, pulling, ducking etc. Ignore where head position is. If he moves head, follow contact but don't let it change (i.e. don't let him drop contact and don't let your contact increase if he shifts). May take numerous sessions multiple repeats.
Then, choose one rein to be the 'inside' rein and ask to soften to the inside as you would if you were riding. Persist until there is a softening of the jaw (repetitions rather than a constant signal). Reward instantly, but not by giving away the contact completely. Repeat over numerous sessions until he makes the association.
Once he responds every time to each rein on the ground, then do mounted. Start at a halt if he will stand still, otherwise at walk, and always use in combination with seat (and as much leg as needed). If very thick horse then you may need someone on the ground to give the signal with the reins to start with so the horse makes the link from ground work to ridden.
I schooled one quite thick ex-racehorse that took some time to get this consistently, but most horses pick it up quite quickly.

 

[littlebranshill]

Thank you. Shall I try first with loose ring jointed snaffle? He just comes above the bit and pokes his nose. I don't think he has had a bad experience before as he had only just been backed when I took him on. He can be very silly and spooky and not at all thick. In fact, he is far too intelligent for his own good and I have to occupy his brain. When I lunge him he goes nicely on the left rein but finds it more difficult on the right rein and will not soften and just pokes his nose all the time despite encouragement with side reins. As I said I have had his back checked out and all seems to be fine.

 

[wkiwi]

Thank you. Shall I try first with loose ring jointed snaffle? He just comes above the bit and pokes his nose. .

Will he take up a contact at all in a snaffle when you are standing still or just walking on him? I am very very basic when it comes to bitting (having evented my last TB horse at Novice in an eggbutt plus cavesson and no martingale) and tend to school in a loose ring if the lean and an eggbutt if they won't take a contact. The last one i schooled that had been ridden heaps in a pelham (ex show pony) had similar reaction to a snaffle as yours and i used a loose-ring, but he was a bit heavy in the hand when rounded up. If he was the type to duck right behind the contact (nose near chest in pelham with no feel in my hand) then i would have tried an eggbutt.
However, most horses will adapt to whatever snaffle you want to use. The key is to soften the contact (but not let go) the INSTANT they respond so that they get the reward. Never (or as much as is humanly possible) let them lean or duck behind the contact.
Good luck.

 

[tallyho!]

I had a very very similar problem with my last horse - pelham no problem... snaffle = above bit and tank through. Horrid.

I had to reschool me and teach myself not to pull back in a snaffle - I had a new trainer and I was the taught to lift the snaffle with the aids (so that it was affecting corners of the mouth rather than bars) and had to use loads of seat to begin with i.e. really exaggerating weight aids and neck rein. It took me a year (!) actually but it became a challenge to get him competing in a snaffle (I can get quite dogg-ed!) and I managed it and got some nice work without any protest whatsoever.

I've trained my youngster the same way and have had fabulous results - simple single joint snaffle. I do everything in it - it's the lift technique (asking for bend/tempo/stretch). I can even pull her up when racing across the stubble with her mates. In fact the single joint is the most effective as it's such a clear "ask".

 

[littlebranshill]

I had a very very similar problem with my last horse - pelham no problem... snaffle = above bit and tank through. Horrid.

I had to reschool me and teach myself not to pull back in a snaffle - I had a new trainer and I was the taught to lift the snaffle with the aids (so that it was affecting corners of the mouth rather than bars) and had to use loads of seat to begin with i.e. really exaggerating weight aids and neck rein. It took me a year (!) actually but it became a challenge to get him competing in a snaffle (I can get quite dogg-ed!) and I managed it and got some nice work without any protest whatsoever.

I've trained my youngster the same way and have had fabulous results - simple single joint snaffle. I do everything in it - it's the lift technique (asking for bend/tempo/stretch). I can even pull her up when racing across the stubble with her mates. In fact the single joint is the most effective as it's such a clear "ask".

Thank you Tallyho! that sounds excellent and very interesting. I would like to get more information on this if possible. Perhaps you could let me know where I can get some help with this method?

 

[Cortez]

Thank you Tallyho! that sounds excellent and very interesting. I would like to get more information on this if possible. Perhaps you could let me know where I can get some help with this method?

Phillipe Karl...good place to start.

 

[tallyho!]

Phillipe Karl...good place to start.

^^

 

[mcnaughty]

You could try a wilkie as the poll pressure could help bring him a bit rounder but I am not sure they are officially dressage legal. Depends what you want to do with him

 

[littlebranshill]

I had a very very similar problem with my last horse - pelham no problem... snaffle = above bit and tank through. Horrid.

I had to reschool me and teach myself not to pull back in a snaffle - I had a new trainer and I was the taught to lift the snaffle with the aids (so that it was affecting corners of the mouth rather than bars) and had to use loads of seat to begin with i.e. really exaggerating weight aids and neck rein. It took me a year (!) actually but it became a challenge to get him competing in a snaffle (I can get quite dogg-ed!) and I managed it and got some nice work without any protest whatsoever.

I've trained my youngster the same way and have had fabulous results - simple single joint snaffle. I do everything in it - it's the lift technique (asking for bend/tempo/stretch). I can even pull her up when racing across the stubble with her mates. In fact the single joint is the most effective as it's such a clear "ask".

I had a try at this yesterday with immediate affects! Good ones I might add and got some lovely moments. Am very encouraged. Thanks. Now will have to try to find a trainer in my area (East Sussex)

 

[tallyho!]

I had a try at this yesterday with immediate affects! Good ones I might add and got some lovely moments. Am very encouraged. Thanks. Now will have to try to find a trainer in my area (East Sussex)

Ah! There is someone that way... near Brighton - I think!! Don't quote me. All the best and I think if you explore the in-hand work it's even more rewarding...

 

[Becca-84]

This sounds exactly like my pony! I've just bought a myler low port hanging cheek to try. If you find a trainer who helps you, could you let me know, as I am in East Sussex too

 

[wkiwi]

Kirsty Mepham is a dressage rider/trainer at Isfield (near Lewes). She was at the Olympics in 2000 and is currently riding small tour.
Penny Sangster is an event rider/trainer near Herstmonceux. She teaches a lot of levels including pony club.

 

[tallyho!]

I had a try at this yesterday with immediate affects! Good ones I might add and got some lovely moments. Am very encouraged. Thanks. Now will have to try to find a trainer in my area (East Sussex)

I asked around for you re french classical/PK and a lady called Kat Layfield trains with PK.

 

[Tnavas]

Have you had his neck and back checked. An injury to the poll can cause problems with the bit. Also check saddle fit, and have teeth checked.

Have you tried him in a Baucher, (hanging cheek)

 

[littlebranshill]

Have you had his neck and back checked. An injury to the poll can cause problems with the bit. Also check saddle fit, and have teeth checked.

Have you tried him in a Baucher, (hanging cheek)

As mentioned in my first post I have had everything checked! Have not tried him in a Baucher but he is showing signs of improvement using the Philippe Karl technique in a loose ring french link. Will continue to see how he goes in that before trying anything new. Thanks.