Dilemma - Ex Racer....put him on the bit or not? Advise please.

[EMC]

Hello all,

I'm currently having a bit (no pun intended) of a dilemma with my Ex-racer, Fred.

Bit of background for those who aren't familiar: Fred is 8 years old, he came out of racing in April and came to me in May after a month at grass. Since he came to me we have been doing lot's of groundwork, free schooling over poles etc. and ridden work in the school. I have moved him to a new yard that has instant access to miles of off road hacking after our vet recommended lot's of straight line work (no more lungeing) as he is un-level behind.

I trained at the British Racing School, and although I have done some low level 'traditional' schooling and a bit of sidesaddle I am most familiar with working racehorses on the galllops and in road work which doesn't require the same outline as traditional riding. I do not have much experience of working a horse 'on the bit' and whilst my hands are soft they are not that of a dressage rider!

So....we have been hacking out for the past few weeks with other horses, also just with my OH on a pushbike for company and the other day we did our first short solo outing. Fred is coming on leaps and bounds, he is much less spooky, comes back to me from canter or a gallop and will mosy along quite freely on the buckle. I love nothing more than kicking my feet out of the stirrups, giving him a free rein and just letting us both relax (yes, I know it's a bit fluffy.) If I'm tense and gather up the reins he immediately becomes tense too.

The wonderful lady who owns the yard and with whom I have been hacking is traditionally schooled and has competed in eventing to a reasonably high level. I have nothing but the utmost respect as she is a kind (but quietly firm) rider who achieves great results with her horses. She has commented that I should start working Fred 'on the bit' as this will help build his topline and enable him to use his body properly and has been teaching me how to apply the aids to ask for him to do this.

I have tried it numerous times, and although we have had a few seconds of him putting his head down, mostly he slows down (my leg is on) and sticks his head in the air like a giraffe and becomes quite agitated. As soon as I revert to giving him a loose rein (although I can still feel his mouth) he walks out with purpose and relaxes and we both breathe a sigh of relief.

My dilemma is at this stage in his and my re-training (we are only three months into it after all) I feel that I just want him to develop the confidence to hack out well and enjoy his new surroundings and slower pace of life. I feel awful every time I agitate him by trying to get him to work in an outline, I understand how this can benefit a horse and if I am to compete he will need to learn but he just thinks I am a mad woman trying to confuse him with 'stop' and 'go' at the same time. Are we destined to look like a giraffe or should I man up and get on with it?

How soon should I start to train him to go 'on the bit' and how should I go about doing this? I have heard of aids used in lunging such as the Equiami and a Pessoa and am happy to use such gadgets but only if they do not force him or cause him discomfort. I'm a great believer in doing things properly, but in this case I simply don't have the experience so I am asking you guys .

Also, I am interested in learning more about Endurance riding. Fred seems like he will trot on forever and I like the idea competing on him, obviously we would start with pleasure rides first and only once I know he is happy and safe. In Endurance are the horses ridden or trained in an outline? A lot of the photo's I have seen show very happy looking horses and riders, but they don't look like they are working in an outline!

Thanks for getting this far, choccy biccies and a cuppa for you

 

[Mince Pie]

How about starting with long and low? It'll be less of a step from "on the buckle" for him in terms or rein length and it would be better for working his topline if he isn't used to it.

 

[ex racer rider]

Nope, nope nope nope. Look at it this way, would you expect a newly broken horse to be on the bit in 3 months? Treat him the same way you would a green freshly broken horse.
you said he is unlevel behind? He will also be unbalanced, balance is rythm, rythm is balance, balance is impulsion, impulsion is collection. Untill he has complete balance you will get no where near a collection. So keep him on the buckle or shorter, do circles (if he is sound) and lots of them, he maybe showing signs of unlevel ness due to shoddy balance, think about it, all he has done is gallop in straight lines! And once he is totally balanced try and bring him up into himself and into a nice round outline working through his back.

and as for endurance, go for it! He will find it easy/easier than dressage and it is fun for you and him. You dont need to go in an outline for endurance (you can if you want) but tbh its all about freedom of movement etc
hope this helps

ps sorry about grammar/spelling as im on my phone!

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Being "on the bit" has nothing to do with head carriage. Get him balanced with suppleness, rhythm and impulsion like someone already said. When the power comes from behind and isn't blocked through his back, his head will automatically go where it should. I'd leave him alone, he's happy, you're happy. The obsession people have with getting their horses head and neck in a certain position drives me round the twist. When you do get to the stage of going on the bit, a few strides is all you'll get to start with and should be rewarded. Not ask them to go on the bit then keep them there for the whole ride, which is sadly what a lot of people try to do, then wonder why their horse resists. I'm all for working a

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

...horse properly under the right circumstances, but there's no harm in leaving them to move as mother nature intended, if you have neither the skill nor inclination to change things. Plenty of horses work into their late twenties having never been ridden on the bit. I've always wanted to try endurance but never had the transport. Good luck with it.

 

[Holly Hocks]

I completely agree with everything Sugar and Spice has said.

 

[**Vanner**]

Working in an outline means he is using his back correctly and will help him to carry his rider properly. 'on the bit' is something very different. I would try to encourage him long and low to build his back correctly.

 

[abitodd]

Consider booking a session with Lucinda McAlpine(just over the border in Devon)
She has a magic way of showing horses that it is easier to use their bodies in a correct frame. She does not use force,just gentle suggestions. Most horses get the idea in one session and stick with their new found carriage.

 

[tafyx]

Consider booking a session with Lucinda McAlpine(just over the border in Devon)
She has a magic way of showing horses that it is easier to use their bodies in a correct frame. She does not use force,just gentle suggestions. Most horses get the idea in one session and stick with their new found carriage.

as above, find a sympathetic instructor that will take things slowly. i found one to help me with this and three years down the line he is well muscled along his back and much more balanced. what ever you do dont rush him, enjoy him as you are doing. its good to take other peoples advice onboard but ultimately you know what suits you and your horse.

 

[Baggybreeches]

I've never heard of the lady that abitodd mentioned but her methods sound very similar to Pammy Hutton's. I took one of mine who was 8 weeks off the track and just back into walk and trot work to her clinic and whenever he softened onto the bit we stopped and she gave him polos, I thought she was barking but it laid such good foundations for him. By not asking him to work over his back into the contact you are effectively reinforcing his original way of going and it will be more difficult to correct at a later date. Any horse needs clear, consistent instruction, best to start as you mean to go on.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I'm another who finds this obsession with having horses 'on the bit' very annoying and rather frustrating - as I'm sure most of the horses do too.
I'd continue with your long straight hacks until your vet tells you otherwise. If you can incorporate some hill work and stepping over logs/ditches he will begin to build the muscles needed for 'topline'.
IMO there are no real quick fixes and no substitute for riding from the seat & legs. I do wish people would stop fiddling about with horses' mouths and thinking they're doing a good job because the horse 'looks pretty'.
I'm surprised that an eventer would resort to these methods - but then again I shouldn't be as I've watched some of them in the dressage phase look pretty awful, with their nodding heads and flapping feet.
OP, carry on as you are, with both you and the horse enjoying yourselves.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Nope, nope nope nope. Look at it this way, would you expect a newly broken horse to be on the bit in 3 months? Treat him the same way you would a green freshly broken horse.
you said he is unlevel behind? He will also be unbalanced, balance is rythm, rythm is balance, balance is impulsion, impulsion is collection. Untill he has complete balance you will get no where near a collection. So keep him on the buckle or shorter, do circles (if he is sound) and lots of them, he maybe showing signs of unlevel ness due to shoddy balance, think about it, all he has done is gallop in straight lines! And once he is totally balanced try and bring him up into himself and into a nice round outline working through his back.

and as for endurance, go for it! He will find it easy/easier than dressage and it is fun for you and him. You dont need to go in an outline for endurance (you can if you want) but tbh its all about freedom of movement etc
hope this helps

ps sorry about grammar/spelling as im on my phone!

and this ladies and gents is why there are so many spoilt, badly schooled horses running round with sore necks and backs whilst the muppet on top cooes at them that they are *only* 5/6/7/8 whatever so cant possibly be expected to work in a civillised fashion!

i expect my 3yo's to work in a soft outline, ie neck relaxed out and round in front with correct bend, not rigidly held straight up or out or with counter bend.....from the first day they trot with a rider on, so 2nd or 3rd ride.(walk is harder as so easy to ruin so happy to leave them be in walk initially as long as they are soft to the hand and stetching).

but then i do put in the groundwork, teach them to bend each way, to relax their jaw in repsonse to contact, to move away from the leg laterally as well as forward, so then when i do get on, they are already fairly supple and confident in the contact.

it is COMPLETELY counter productive to let a horse do as it wants for X months/years and then all of a sudden change the goal posts, and it is why so many amateur riders struggle. the horse calls the shots for so long then all of a sudden they want them to work in a totally different way and of course the horse says "no thank you" and thats when tantrums begin.

expect correct work (relative to age) from the word go and its far far easier.

whoever said long and low was on the right lines, he needs to learn to stretch out his back and neck, relax his poll and jaw. aim to have the top of his neck just above with height,poll at wither height, but with a long softly arched neck, not all scrunched up.
but as also mentioned, do short bursts of this work, then give him a break, it will be very hard work.

if you dont get him supple he will never move evenly. to be supple he has to accept the contact, the steps to collection are fluid and work together, you cannot work on each in isolation.

 

[AmyMay]

She has commented that I should start working Fred 'on the bit' as this will help build his topline and enable him to use his body properly and has been teaching me how to apply the aids to ask for him to do this.

Simply asking him to work quietly in to the contact is all you need to do.

He sounds fab - and so do you.

Enjoy him - and lets have some photo's.

 

[AshTay]

But how do you go from giraffe to long-and-low?!? It's all very well saying that if you can get the impulsion coming from behind then the true outline will magically come on it's own but when your horse has an upside-down neck from months/years of being allowed to go like that, it's hard to get them to invert it, and any sort of encouragement of impulsion from behind turns into speed and the feeling that you're about to go into orbit!!

I've found that with my giraffe I've had to first of all just get him to drop his head so it's not in the air. It's not a true outline even though he looks "prettier" but at least now I can try to bring the energy up from behind without him hollowing and shooting off. And because he's not used to carrying his head like that he wants to stretch down more more often which is helping to develop some semblance of a starting point for long and low.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

ashtay-you are on the right lines.

its complete voodoo when people say you ride forward forward forward and the horse will majikally come on to the bit in a puff of fairy dust! doesnt work like that.

sometimes, especially with a re train as opposed to a straight forward backing, you HAVE to teach the horse to relax to the contact before you can really ride with the correct amount of impulsion, so that you can contain that and convert it in to collection/power and not just frantic rushing.

 

[millitiger]

Nope, nope nope nope. Look at it this way, would you expect a newly broken horse to be on the bit in 3 months? Treat him the same way you would a green freshly broken horse.

Yes, I would expect a newly backed horse to be 'on the bit' if we take that to mean accepting the leg and working into a contact (which will give you the outline anyway).

Start as you mean to go on- if you ever want to get the horse to work correctly/in an outline/on the bit or whatever else you want to call it, you need to set the horse up for success from the outset- makes it much easier for everyone

OP, perhaps try lunging with a chambon or similar to help show your horse what you want from the ground to begin with.
This was you won't be stressing him out while ridden and you won't be undoing the good work you have already done, getting to hack out in a relaxed manner

Once he has started to work well and rounder on the lunge, start asking for a few steps out hacking, reward as soon as he released and try and get him working into the end of your rein, rather than on a loose rein.

 

[maggiemoto]

As an ex-racer, they are different to a newly backed horse as they do need re-training rather than training. Contact the Thoroughbred Rehabilitation Centre, R.O.R or Moorcroft who retrain thoroughbreds to lead a new life after racing. They have a huge amount of info on their websites re re-training and are always happy to give advice if asked.

Full credit to you to take on an ex-racer and give him the second chance he deserves.

 

[minesadouble]

I'm by no means an expert but have had a couple of ex-racehorses and my eldest daughter currently has one too.

It may be coincidence but all three were not very 'off the leg' initially. Get the horse going forward from the leg before even attempting to achieve an outline and you're halfway there. Always remember that the engine is in the back.

Even if you're not going to compete a horse who is correctly schooled will be much more of a joy to ride than an unschooled one. But always take your time and enjoy the journey

 

[chestnut cob]

ashtay-you are on the right lines.

its complete voodoo when people say you ride forward forward forward and the horse will majikally come on to the bit in a puff of fairy dust! doesnt work like that.

sometimes, especially with a re train as opposed to a straight forward backing, you HAVE to teach the horse to relax to the contact before you can really ride with the correct amount of impulsion, so that you can contain that and convert it in to collection/power and not just frantic rushing.

I'm glad I've dipped into this post and read your two replies - hopefully this means I'm doing things the right way! I have recently purchased a horse who spent two seasons hunting in Ireland (he has just turned 6), whizzing around and completely upside down. He was not at all supple when I got him and thought he should just go flat out everywhere, head in the air. His default when he doesn't understand something is to throw his head up and tank off. Unfortunately because he's been allowed to go like this for 2 years, I'm now having to deal with the tantrums when trying to get him to go in a different way. IMHO he needs to learn firstly to slow everything down rather than chasing him forwards - as you say above, that isn't going to magically put him on the bit. I've also had to go right back to the start with long reining and lunging. He does loads of hacking but I school all the way round, whether it's endless half halts and transitions within a pace (walk and then progressing to trot, because he can be vile in the trot!), teaching him to stretch, and introducing lateral work. Under saddle he's learning the difference between leg meaning forwards and leg meaning sideways - I've started bits of baby leg yield and shoulder fore, which are really helping his suppleness. I also work him in hand and he's now beginning to make some correct and big steps of LY, with good attempts at SI. The lateral work has made a huge difference to him and he's much straighter now.

The biggest issue I have with him is that he doesn't *want* to accept a contact. His teeth have been done, he's had the physio to make sure there are no underlying issues and I'm getting there slowly with him. He needs the L&L work but I don't think we'll get that until he's happy in the contact in the first place.

So while mine isn't an ex-racer, it's a 15hh Irish connie x type, it's still a horse that has been doing things totally different for 2 years and is now having to learn how to do things differently! In answer to the OP... yes, I would be putting him on the bit (massive simplification I know!).

 

[ex racer rider]

and this ladies and gents is why there are so many spoilt, ALL of the horses i have broken in and schooled are working correctly and have turned into cracking horses! badly schooled horses running round with sore necks and backs whilst the muppet on top cooes at them that they are *only* 5/6/7/8 whatever so cant possibly be expected to work in a civillised fashion!
wow! way to make assumptions there! my horses are not spoilt, badly schooled or sore. My horses (all ex racers) are well schooled, doing dressage in a well rounded outline working through their backs correctly
i expect my 3yo's to work in a soft outline, ie neck relaxed out and round in front with correct bend, not rigidly held straight up or out or with counter bend.....from the first day they trot with a rider on, so 2nd or 3rd ride.(walk is harder as so easy to ruin so happy to leave them be in walk initially as long as they are soft to the hand and stetching). as do i but by an outline i ment a concistent 'on the bit' and if your youngsters are 'on the bit' after the 3rd ride then your rushing! no horse can possibly build up the correct muscles in 3 rides

but then i do put in the groundwork, teach them to bend each way, to relax their jaw in repsonse to contact, to move away from the leg laterally as well as forward, so then when i do get on, they are already fairly supple and confident in the contact.

it is COMPLETELY counter productive to let a horse do as it wants for X months/years and then all of a sudden change the goal posts,so retraining an ex racer is wrong? they have 'goal posts' set, they are gallop on! then we decide to turn them into riding horses we completely change those ideas! and it is why so many amateur riders struggle. the horse calls the shots for so long then all of a sudden they want them to work in a totally different way and of course the horse says "no thank you" and thats when tantrums begin.

expect correct work (relative to age) from the word go and its far far easier.
whoever said long and low was on the right lines, he needs to learn to stretch out his back and neck, relax his poll and jaw. you will find i also said this! aim to have the top of his neck just above with height,poll at wither height, but with a long softly arched neck, not all scrunched up.
but as also mentioned, do short bursts of this work, then give him a break, it will be very hard work.

if you dont get him supple he will never move evenly. to be supple he has to accept the contact, the steps to collection are fluid and work together, you cannot work on each in isolation.

A race horse and a riding horse are COMPLETELY different beasts. Most retrainers give their horses a year off to be 'let down' from racing. this horse has only had 3 months and thats with work. Look at it this way, your a sprinter, your fit as fire. go do gymnastics.... it isnt happening, all through your sprinting career you have built up certain muscles gymnastics requires different ones.

op, My advice. take it if you want is let him go long and low (not wander around without working from behind) and let those muscles develop, if you dont then he wont have the correct ones in place to come 'on the bit' but good luck

 

[AmyMay]

badly schooled horses running round with sore necks and backs

Which of course could be applied to many pro rider horses too..................

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

it could and indeed i can name a few cases where it can, but its less prevalent.

ex racer rider-you have clearly said you would nto ask the horse to work on the bit YET. my Q is why? why not ask the horse to be as on the bit as he can manage and build it up. at no point have i said make him do a GP outline for the entire ride and i would not ask that of a 3yo either.
you need to make the ridden work a continuation of the in hand work so it all dovetails, otherwise you are going to get no where fast.

i am well aware of how racers differ, but equally, if you treat them like they have special needs, they will always act like they do and both horse and rider end up a total primma donna!

 

[AshTay]

A race horse and a riding horse are COMPLETELY different beasts. Most retrainers give their horses a year off to be 'let down' from racing. this horse has only had 3 months and thats with work. Look at it this way, your a sprinter, your fit as fire. go do gymnastics.... it isnt happening, all through your sprinting career you have built up certain muscles gymnastics requires different ones.

op, My advice. take it if you want is let him go long and low (not wander around without working from behind) and let those muscles develop, if you dont then he wont have the correct ones in place to come 'on the bit' but good luck

I think that ex racer rider and Prince33Sp4rkle are talking at cross-purposes here. Prince33Sp4rkle believes that not teaching a young horse (not an ex racer) to work in outline right from day one is wrong and that a horse who has only been backed for 3 months *should* know the right way of going. Her point was that using the example of a newly backed horse not being expected to begin work in some sort of outline wthin 3 months is a bad oen.
Re-training an ex racer is different to starting a young horse for the reasons that ex racer rider points out but still the education should begin straight away whilst recognising that it will take time for old ways to be unlearned and new ways to be learned.

But still I find the whole "let him go long and low (not wander around without working from behind) and let those muscles develop" very unrealistic and unhelpful advice for a horse whose learned way of going is head up and out! If "going on the bit" is different to a true "outline" then would "going on the bit" indicate some sort of acceptance of the contact which must be in place before a horse can truly work through behind to achieve any sort of "outline", be it L&L or a higher carriage??

 

[ex racer rider]

it could and indeed i can name a few cases where it can, but its less prevalent.

ex racer rider-you have clearly said you would nto ask the horse to work on the bit YET. my Q is why? why not ask the horse to be as on the bit as he can manage and build it up. at no point have i said make him do a GP outline for the entire ride and i would not ask that of a 3yo either.
you need to make the ridden work a continuation of the in hand work so it all dovetails, otherwise you are going to get no where fast.

i am well aware of how racers differ, but equally, if you treat them like they have special needs, they will always act like they do and both horse and rider end up a total primma donna!

Its not a case of pampering them or treating them like special needs but its about understanding their needs. if you look at the neck conformation of an exracer just about all (granted there will be some exceptions) have some degree of a ewe neck and muscle attrophy (sp?) on their backs. It is impossible to have them going in an outline when they have none of the correct muscle. Going long, low and relaxed is what you want. by this i dont mean pootling along on the buckle end with the rider half asleep, i meen actively walking on with impulsion, rythm and purpose whilst the horse stretches down and starts to build these muscles. when they have started to progress and the correct muscles have started to build then ask for a collection. doing so before the horse is ready will cause pain (not massive amounts but 'muscle burn' if you understand what i mean) and nowing the mentality of the vast majority of ex racers this isnt going to work, he will resist (as op has said he does) start to fight and view work as something unpleasent and to be fighted.
A collection and working 'on the bit' is supposed to be a natural progression of a horses correct schooling where in muscles have developed correctly and proficciently not a rushed endeavour.

 

[Mince Pie]

But still I find the whole "let him go long and low (not wander around without working from behind) and let those muscles develop" very unrealistic and unhelpful advice for a horse whose learned way of going is head up and out! If "going on the bit" is different to a true "outline" then would "going on the bit" indicate some sort of acceptance of the contact which must be in place before a horse can truly work through behind to achieve any sort of "outline", be it L&L or a higher carriage??

With all the racehorses/ex racehorses I've ridden when hacking out on the buckle, their heads and necks are straight out in front of them. So it wouldn't be too much of a difference to start working on coming long and low.

Also from what I've seen "in an outline" and "on the bit" are different terms for the same thing

 

[ex racer rider]

I think that ex racer rider and Prince33Sp4rkle are talking at cross-purposes here. Prince33Sp4rkle believes that not teaching a young horse (not an ex racer) to work in outline right from day one is wrong and that a horse who has only been backed for 3 months *should* know the right way of going. Her point was that using the example of a newly backed horse not being expected to begin work in some sort of outline wthin 3 months is a bad oen.
Re-training an ex racer is different to starting a young horse for the reasons that ex racer rider points out but still the education should begin straight away whilst recognising that it will take time for old ways to be unlearned and new ways to be learned. the exapmle of a newly broken horse may not be the best but it has similar principles, a race horse is not a riding horse just as an unbroken horse is not so they both have to be learned how to go as a riding horse would. but yes i agree there are vast differences between each

But still I find the whole "let him go long and low (not wander around without working from behind) and let those muscles develop" very unrealistic and unhelpful advice for a horse whose learned way of going is head up and out! it may seem 'unrealistic and unhelpfull advice' but it is one of the best pieces of advice i was ever given whilst re training ex racers and its the best piece of advice i can give, they take time, effort and tears. any horse can not be expected to work on the bit without the correct muscles and as you say they have had their heads up and out well out and down is the next step that the horses find easiest. If "going on the bit" is different to a true "outline" then would "going on the bit" indicate some sort of acceptance of the contact which must be in place before a horse can truly work through behind to achieve any sort of "outline", be it L&L or a higher carriage??

On the bit is generally accepted as what you would see in a dressage test. being in an outline is working correctly through the back and then picking up the bit as an extension of said outline

 

[ex racer rider]

With all the racehorses/ex racehorses I've ridden when hacking out on the buckle, their heads and necks are straight out in front of them. So it wouldn't be too much of a difference to start working on coming long and low.

Also from what I've seen "in an outline" and "on the bit" are different terms for the same thing

the in an outline/on the bit thing is subjective i suppose.

and as you have said regarding exracers you have ridden, imagine expecting them to come in and on the bit like a 'dressage horse'... then you will experience a fight and agiraffe impression

 

[Mince Pie]

Well yes obviously, which is why my first post said work him long and low. I think getting a horse in an outline/on the bit comes in stages:
Get the horse comfortable at long and low, then move up to a prelim "outline", then slowly increasing towards that of a GP dressage horse until you're happy. You need to build the back muscles slowly and have the contact completely established at each level before moving up - basic building blocks.

I also agree with PS that I would expect a newly backed horse to go onto a long and low outline as I would have been lunging it in elasticated side reins so it would understand the contact from the get go.

 

[ex racer rider]

I also agree with PS that I would expect a newly backed horse to go onto a long and low outline as I would have been lunging it in elasticated side reins so it would understand the contact from the get go.

I agree that a green horse should be going long and low but not in a 'propper' ouline which is what i thought they ment at first

 

[marley and danni]

hi,

i have an exracer he was let down for almost 6 months before he started 5 months of hacking with his old owner then i bought him and just let him get stablished with light contact and that contact doesnt mean go!!

then after 8 months of that i strated to get him going long and low for a further 6 months, now since about march i have got him going in a true outline the majority of the time although my Tb will never have a high arched neck you see on most horses he has a very long neck and short back and so his carriage is a lot lower in general anyways plus teamed the fact his still croup high!

but i got him long and low by pushing on with my legs and keeping a stead not giving much hand contact... and now with him working properly if i keeep my hands still and slightly open he stays there just fie unless he goes unbalanced or i do....

but you will never get a hrse truely in an outline untill hes truley balanced...

i also use bungee reins loosely twicce a week these work wonders

i would say keep doing what you doing with straight line etc and work long an low for a while