Dilemna RE yard staff and chiffney bit

[gingerthing]

Horse is kept on livery where yard staff turn out and bring in.

A while back, I had been informed second hand (through another livery client) that my TB had been demonstrating 'dangerous behaviour' when turning out ie rearing up and general exiteability. Supposedly he had been taking off and had even been told that staff were letting him go several occasions. i will add that some of the staff are quite young and not overly experienced.

As none of the actual staff had informed me themselves , I approached one of them and questioned it, and was told yes he had been quite full of himself of late. I put this down to exiteability of going out in the mornings as the horses go out around 8.30 and are in by 2pm, often earlier. Then they are often left standing in without any hay until evening feed time.


I know in the past with my horse, the only times he has ever been a bit bargy with me to lead out is when he is the last horse to go out or if his companions are being led ahead of him. I explained this to yard staff. In the past when he has been like this I would lead him out in a chiffney for a couple of days then he would be fine being lead from a headcollar. However they had been using it all the time to lead him desite him no longer playing up. I can lead him myself with no problems in just a headcollar.

Now over the weekend, I went down to see my horse and to my horror found he was standing in the stable still wearing a chiffney bit! I took my chiffney away that night, as I wasnt happy with it being used everyday when it wasnt needed, and the fact that he was left in a stable still wearing it made my blood run cold. What annoyed me more was that nobody seemed to think that much of a big deal about my horse potentially breaking his jaw!

Now yesterday, one of the yard staff asked me to bring my chiffney back to the yard. I asked why and was told that she was not happy for the girls to lead him without it. I asked if he had been misbehaving and she said no, but in the event that he might misbehave she wanted him to wear it regardless when being led around.

I explained that I did not want him wearing it when not required and the fact that they had forgotten to remove it was the final nail in the coffin. However i begrudginly left it as it wouldnt surprise me if they turned around and refused to turn him out. I just dont trust them . Luckily I am moving yards but just dont know what to do for the next few weeks

 

[Tinypony]

Move yards more quickly.
In your post you've identified the likely reasons for your horse starting to "misbehave" (and I can imagine the reactions of yard staff who aren't particularly patient and under time pressure). You've also witnessed some seriously negligent behaviour on the part of the staff. If he still had the chiffney in his mouth, then he also had a headpiece of some description left on, why would they do that? Surely they don't even leave headcollars on in the stable? You obviously don't have a chance to nip in regularly unannounced, but maybe it would be worth doing? I wonder if they've decided he gets too excited when they are trying to put his headgear on in the mornings... and are leaving it on all night. Dreadful thought, but why else would someone unclip a lead rope and leave a chiffney on a horse?
Have you looked in your horse's mouth? I took a "problem" horse on once and his gums were bruised and his teeth were damaged from the over-use of a chiffney.

 

[Ladyinred]

"Some of the staff are young and not overly experienced" That says it all. Do you really want inexperienced youngsters leading your horse in a chifney?

I hate the things, they are so dangerous in the wrong hands.

 

[BigRed]

Unfortunately you are partly to blame for this. You told them he could be silly and that when he was - you used a chiffney - you even left if there for them to use.

There is no excuse for it being left on him, but you can't blame them for being concerned that your horse is sometimes silly about being led, unfortunately we live in a claim society now and I suspect they are worried he is going to hurt someone and they will be sued.

You need to speak to the Manager and ask that only experience staff handle him in the last few weeks that he is there.

 

[Echo Bravo]

Agree with the above

 

[NeedNewHorse]

The fact that your horse goes out and comes in at 2pm (often earlier)would of been enough for me not to have wanted to be there - and then just stands in his stable without hay is even worse, then to leave him in his chiffney is horrid.

Your horse sounds like he is only excited about going out as he gets little precious time out in the field.

Move earlier.

 

[nativetyponies]

What a load of fuss about nothing.

Just move the horse...or get yourself down there and do it yourself?

 

[natalia]

Coming from a yard managers point of view-

You have a big bouncy TB who has been unruley to turn out and some less experienced staff having to do day to day care jobs ie turn out. Poss on a training system. The staff are not comfortable handling your horse in a head collar (and actually if it was being naughty most sensible people won't battle on with it in just a head collar) so they use the chifney. this is for he safety of the staff who may if squished present legal action if the horse was a known pain in the back side, and also for your horse who I'm sure you would not want getting lose and ding himself some damage to which then you could also create more stress and legal action claiming negligence. Yes chifney was left on, but if staff aren't explained that this is not acceptable and pot. dangerous then they will do such things. Rather than coming on here wit this rather brash approach your always better handling such situations head on and taking issue up with yard manger. Telling them what the problem is and then giving a chance to resolve it. Liveries like you are a pain in the arse as you never say anything to peoples faces, if you have a problem with your horse not having any hay till tea time then sort it out with the staff! Likewise if staff are inexperienced and cant' handle your horse then take them to one side and show them how to do so.

 

[Doormouse]

Why don't you suggest they lead him out in an exercise bridle instead. You can get those canvas/nylon bridles really cheaply and just put a plain snaffle bit, no noseband and the rope from one bit ring to the other. I always use a bridle like this to exercise ride and lead and will use it if I have one who can be pushy on a headcollar. Although it would be not nice for the poor lad if it was left on all afternoon it wouldn't be as bad as a chiffney.

 

[gingerthing]

Thanks for the replies;

I wouldnt go by saying he is a problem horse, when he first began showing this behaviour he was not in regular work due to my own pregnancy and he is the type of horse that is much more civilised when having a job to do (typical TB). The fact that he is now in work 6 days a week and has been for a while now has made him a much nicer horse to be around and handle. But I just am unable to get this message across to the yard staff and its so frustrating.

TBH I am tempted to meet with the morning staff and offer to turn him out and bring in for them. (although its yard policy for staff to do this)

I understand that I am probably partly to blame by leaving the chiffney there, with regards to them being sued, I was more worried about them suing me (god forbid if anything did ever happen). I was laying awake for ages last night wondering if I had done the right thing.

As for leaving the headcollars on in stables, yes I have witnessed this. horses are brought in and left with them on untill they are brushed off. I always make a point of getting there to do my boy fairly soon so he is not left standing with it on. I have watched the staff and headcollars are sometimes left on untill evening feed times.

YO is away for 2 weeks otherwise I would have had a word with him

 

[ginadrummond]

It sounds to me like you should move him anyway. Have you thought of finding somewhere he can live out or go out for longer in the day? As for the Chifney I agree in the wrong hands they are lethal but a necessary addition to the tool kit for dealing with horses who rear when led as this can be lethal to the leader. TBH when I had mine at yards I was the worlds worst owner as nothing was ever good enough and it is easy to get into that cycle of moving every month or so. Still on balance I would move him - imagine if he'd have been left overnight in the Chifney!

 

[Crazy Friesian]

Natalia - Your attitude is precisely why I have always been DIY and now have my horses at home. OP is paying for a service. If the horse is not easy to handle then he absolutely should not be left to inexperienced members of staff who will like as not make the whole situation worse. To leave the Chifney on in the stable is tantamount to neglect in my book. It shouldn't be a case of the staff being "informed" It should never have happened. The whole management of the yard needs some addressing IMO.

Horses in early and left without hay till tea time...

Yes I have also run yards, before you shoot me down.

OP move your horse earlier. It really should never have got this far.

Horses are not machines and if you want to run a livery yard then you should expect to have the odd few that need careful handling and do not "fit the mould" If not then go run a chicken farm!

 

[Rowreach]

Coming from a yard managers point of view-

You have a big bouncy TB who has been unruley to turn out and some less experienced staff having to do day to day care jobs ie turn out. Poss on a training system. The staff are not comfortable handling your horse in a head collar (and actually if it was being naughty most sensible people won't battle on with it in just a head collar) so they use the chifney. this is for he safety of the staff who may if squished present legal action if the horse was a known pain in the back side, and also for your horse who I'm sure you would not want getting lose and ding himself some damage to which then you could also create more stress and legal action claiming negligence. Yes chifney was left on, but if staff aren't explained that this is not acceptable and pot. dangerous then they will do such things. Rather than coming on here wit this rather brash approach your always better handling such situations head on and taking issue up with yard manger. Telling them what the problem is and then giving a chance to resolve it. Liveries like you are a pain in the arse as you never say anything to peoples faces, if you have a problem with your horse not having any hay till tea time then sort it out with the staff! Likewise if staff are inexperienced and cant' handle your horse then take them to one side and show them how to do so.

[claps loudly]

Communication as always is the key.

 

[Allover]

Coming from a yard managers point of view-
Rather than coming on here wit this rather brash approach your always better handling such situations head on and taking issue up with yard manger. Telling them what the problem is and then giving a chance to resolve it. Liveries like you are a pain in the arse as you never say anything to peoples faces, if you have a problem with your horse not having any hay till tea time then sort it out with the staff! Likewise if staff are inexperienced and cant' handle your horse then take them to one side and show them how to do so.

What a lovely kind response, do you manage a yard, if so please let me know where it is SO I CAN AVOID IT LIKE THE PLAGUE!

I believe it said in her post that she has tried to explain the whys and wherefors of the chiffney and she is completely in her rights to be a little p****d off that it has been left on. And is this forum not used as a place to have a rant if you so feel the need. There really is no need to be rude!

 

[Baileyhoss]

There are plenty of measures between a headcoller and a chiffney - a controller headcoller, one of those knotted ones with pressure points, an ordinary bridle. In your position, I would remove your chiffney and leave a cheap snaffle bridle for them to use. they should have plenty of control in that. I would not be happy with inexperienced people using something as severe as a chiffney.

However the last line of the OP, was in a nutshell, that you don't trust them. I would NEVER leave my horse in the care of a yard i didn't trust. I would be looking for another yard.

 

[Jade17]

If the staff are inexperienced they have to learn some how! I'd tell them to bugger off and that the chiffney is yours to used at your disgrestion.

I'm sure that most us have had to handle an excitable horse on the end of lead lope that's attached to a plain old head collar on many occasions!

However i do understand that you don't want your horse to come to any harm.
I hope these next few weeks fly by for you.

 

[doris2008]

Coming from a yard managers point of view-

You have a big bouncy TB who has been unruley to turn out and some less experienced staff having to do day to day care jobs ie turn out. Poss on a training system. The staff are not comfortable handling your horse in a head collar (and actually if it was being naughty most sensible people won't battle on with it in just a head collar) so they use the chifney. this is for he safety of the staff who may if squished present legal action if the horse was a known pain in the back side, and also for your horse who I'm sure you would not want getting lose and ding himself some damage to which then you could also create more stress and legal action claiming negligence. Yes chifney was left on, but if staff aren't explained that this is not acceptable and pot. dangerous then they will do such things. Rather than coming on here wit this rather brash approach your always better handling such situations head on and taking issue up with yard manger. Telling them what the problem is and then giving a chance to resolve it. Liveries like you are a pain in the arse as you never say anything to peoples faces, if you have a problem with your horse not having any hay till tea time then sort it out with the staff! Likewise if staff are inexperienced and cant' handle your horse then take them to one side and show them how to do so.

Surely the yard manager is responsible for ensuring that her staff are capable of handling all manner of horses? No horse is entirely predictable even if generally well behaved. It is not the clients responsibility to train the staff! The client has wisely informed the yard that the horse can have the odd moment - which in fairness many can! My Tb can also have the odd 'moment', however I would not expect then, an inexperienced member of staff to handle him and be untrained in the device they are using.
I think it is simply apalling and inexcusable for a member of staff to leave a horse unattended in a stable with something so potentially damaging in his mouth. And to then blame it on an inexperienced member of staff simply not knowing better, is even more negligable on the yard manager in my opinion!

 

[Baileyhoss]

and tbh I would expect the YARD MANAGER to train their staff to handle horses safely and ensure no horses were left without hay etc, - not the livery customers!

 

[Becca-84]

Why don't you suggest they lead him out in an exercise bridle instead. You can get those canvas/nylon bridles really cheaply and just put a plain snaffle bit, no noseband and the rope from one bit ring to the other. I always use a bridle like this to exercise ride and lead and will use it if I have one who can be pushy on a headcollar. Although it would be not nice for the poor lad if it was left on all afternoon it wouldn't be as bad as a chiffney.

I agree...or just a snaffle bit on a headpiece instead of the chifney...or a dually halter or something? A little less severe than the chifney but then on days when he his being more "excitable" the staff have more control that just in a normal headcollar.

 

[Hippona]

Coming from a yard managers point of view-
. Yes chifney was left on, but if staff aren't explained that this is not acceptable and pot. dangerous then they will do such things. .

What sort of muppet would need telling that this is NOT acceptable???

Incompetent if you ask me.......

 

[natalia]

The point I'm trying to make is that although both sides here are in the wrong somewhat, they aren't communicating to each other therefore the ground rules aren't laid out and the horse suffers for it. There is NOTHING worse than a behind your back moaning livery, who will slag you off to all and sundry but never address the problem or causes of it head on to any of the yard staff or yard manager. Yes it's not your "job" to show staff how to use something but if in horses everyone just did a set "job" nothing would ever be done and no one would ever learn. People who work with horses tend to "want" to work with them, its not an office job its a way of life and a passion, so the majority of the time they are keen to learn, esp the inexperienced ones. Yes, the inexperienced staff do drive you mad, but unless you explain to them at some point how will they ever learn?
Re. your horse not having any hay then tell the staff! if you have a problem with it or he pigs it all down quickly then maybe suggest he has a small haylege net of hay left hanging in his stable for when he comes in so he is less fractious and has something to focus on.

 

[Honey08]

Thanks for the replies;

I wouldnt go by saying he is a problem horse, when he first began showing this behaviour he was not in regular work due to my own pregnancy and he is the type of horse that is much more civilised when having a job to do (typical TB). The fact that he is now in work 6 days a week and has been for a while now has made him a much nicer horse to be around and handle. But I just am unable to get this message across to the yard staff and its so frustrating.

TBH I am tempted to meet with the morning staff and offer to turn him out and bring in for them. (although its yard policy for staff to do this)
I understand that I am probably partly to blame by leaving the chiffney there, with regards to them being sued, I was more worried about them suing me (god forbid if anything did ever happen). I was laying awake for ages last night wondering if I had done the right thing.

As for leaving the headcollars on in stables, yes I have witnessed this. horses are brought in and left with them on untill they are brushed off. I always make a point of getting there to do my boy fairly soon so he is not left standing with it on. I have watched the staff and headcollars are sometimes left on untill evening feed times.

YO is away for 2 weeks otherwise I would have had a word with him

I think your solution of meeting them to turn the horse out for them would be a good compromise, and probably make both sides feel better.

As someone who has worked with horses and owned a yard, its very hard to just "get more experienced staff" as lots of people are suggesting. Many come from equestrian colleges where they never have to encounter a difficult horse. You have to look after your staff and not put them in a position where they could get hurt. In this situation I would expect the most senior person to be dealing with this type of horse. I've also met quite a few liveries who thought that their horse was not a problem, when they were dangerous - one lady wouldn't accept that she had a problem horse even though it broke her arm!

There is no excuse whatsoever for the horse being left in the bit. I can understand why they would ask for the chiffney. Its hardly fair to put it in to make yourself feel safe, then not allow someone else to. For you to have bought a chiffney says to me that the horse can indeed be difficult... I wouldn't be upset about them using it everyday - chances are the horse would walk quietly as it knows the bit is there, so the bit wouldn't have an effect. Better that it gets into that habit, than having a bounce around every day to test out whether someone has got hold of it or not. As other people have said, a normal bridle would be a good half way solutuion.

Regarding hay, some horses gobble down haynets within an hour of them going in, and others don't. You can't just keep putting more and more in or you'd end up with an ill horse. Do the horses look poor? To me, haynets in the morning, at lunchtime, and evening is quite acceptable. Obviously its just better if the horse can go out more.

It sounds like a busy yard, so hopefully where you are moving is quieter and more personal, which should help your horse. Good luck.

 

[horsegirl]

One simple thing, if he is in his stable from 2pm until evening without hay then why not leave more hay the night before? Surely if you lead them to believe you are ok with them using a piece of equipment it is not suprising when they use it? I agree it shouldn't have been left on him in the stable but if they have never encountered one before I'm sure you can understand they may not understand the damage

 

[horsegirl]

Regarding hay, some horses gobble down haynets within an hour of them going in, and others don't. You can't just keep putting more and more in or you'd end up with an ill horse.

.

I disagree with this. Constant hay is good for the horse after all you can't limit the amount of grass they eat when out unless you muzzle them. If your horse is overweight then put the hay in 2 small hole haynets one inside the other so it takes ages to eat but I think horses should have unlimited hay.

 

[Honey08]

I disagree with this. Constant hay is good for the horse after all you can't limit the amount of grass they eat when out unless you muzzle them. If your horse is overweight then put the hay in 2 small hole haynets one inside the other so it takes ages to eat but I think horses should have unlimited hay.

Exactly - you limit grass with muzzles if need be.

If you'd given constant hay to our lamanitic ponies you would have killed them...

Most fit competition horses at top level eventing will have less hay and more corn, so they can't have constant hay.

Even double haynets doesn't slow down a really greedy equine.

Better to have frequent, regular nets that are weighed for the type of horse and the work that it is doing than constant.

 

[Tinypony]

I don't think there was anything about Op's original post that was "brash". And I don't thinks she's going behind anyone's back, she's come here to get other opinions and is clearly willing to do something to try to deal with the problem.
I'd be concerned with the care my horse was receiving. I would not be happy for my horse to be brought in to no hay, which is what is often happening. It's not a matter of the horses running out. Nobody needs to keep chucking hay in, they could use a haynet and put one in as a matter of routine after mucking out.
It's not acceptable to leave horses in stables with headcollars on. Surely any experienced yard staff would realise this, and it's the responsibility of the YO or whoever is in charge to make sure that the inexperienced staff know this as well. I've seen two horrendous accidents as a result of horses left in with headcollars on, it's a really bad idea. And - if they were being responsible and removing the headcollars as soon as they bring the horses in, then nobody would have left the chifney on would they? It takes two seconds to unbuckle a headcollar, it's just lazy to leave it on.
I'm quite concerned that an experienced YO would consider it acceptable to use a chiffney on a horse when it's going to be led by an inexperienced groom. I think chiffneys are tools to be used only by experienced (and calm) handlers. It is too easy to jab the horse with them, or use them as a tool of punishment. It doesn't take long for an inexperienced person with a chiffney to turn a slightly difficult to lead horse into a horribly difficult to lead horse. It would also seem sensible to me that, if there are any horses considered a bit "difficult" to turn out, the more experienced staff should deal with them, not leave them to inexperienced people who could inadvertently make them worse. It sounds as if Op's horse is fine if handled appropriately.
So I'd move asap Op, but in the meantime I'd just go and do turnout and bringing in myself. Hopefully the yard you are going to is going to treat your horse fairly, he'll get more turnout and not be left stood in for hours with no hay. Hopefully you're also not moving to Natalia's yard.

 

[Queenbee]

Coming from a yard managers point of view-

You have a big bouncy TB who has been unruley to turn out and some less experienced staff having to do day to day care jobs ie turn out. Poss on a training system. .

I agree with you here, staff are possibly on a training system, no-one comes into this world with experience and they all have to start somewhere. But that is where it stops, from 'a yard managers point of view' manage your staff, if they are not experienced enough then as a 'responsible experienced yard manager' the manager or a more experienced member of staff should shaperone them

Yes chifney was left on, but if staff aren't explained that this is not acceptable and pot. dangerous then they will do such things. .

Then staff are so bloody dense that they should not be employed and the yard manager must have come free with a box of cackers. It is NOT the responsibility of the owner to train the yards staff, it is the responsibility of the yard manager, and it is also the responsibility of the manager/ YO to employ staff with at least 1 brain cell

Rather than coming on here wit this rather brash approach your always better handling such situations head on and taking issue up with yard manger. Telling them what the problem is and then giving a chance to resolve it. Liveries like you are a pain in the arse as you never say anything to peoples faces, if you have a problem with your horse not having any hay till tea time then sort it out with the staff!

I agree with you that liveries should speak up and that on certain issues YO's/managers and staff ARE NOT MINDREADERS! This too infuriates me and is the cause of many problems at livery yards. But really! There are very few people that would bring a horse into a stable without a haynet hanging up for it, it is NOT good practice, and whilst she will have to talk to YM/YO if she wants this to change, on this subject she really shouln't have to!

Likewise if staff are inexperienced and cant' handle your horse then take them to one side and show them how to do so.

Sorry, did I miss something? Well, I hope she gets a reduction in her livery fees then! I didn't realise she was employed by the yard to train their staff, I was rather under the impression that she actually employed the yard to take care of her horse.

Really! That does infuriate me. As a Yard Manager, where do you get off expecting liveries to do your jobs for you?

OP I would say: you really never should have moved your horse there although the plaugue of numpty workers may not have been there when you did. But move pronto! Unfortunatley it is NOT your job to show them how it's done but you probably will have to because currently they sould as able to do their job as a chocolate fireguard. But DO speak up for yourself. If I had ever found a chiffney left in my horses mouth I would have found out who was responsible for it and smacked them round the bonse with chiffney grabbed said horse and marched out of yard.... but then again I am known to be a wee bit rash!

 

[gingerthing]

with regards to the hay, I have asked for him to have a pile of hay left in for when he comes in for the afternoon - which I am charged an extra £1 a day for. He then gets a haynet at 5pm along with a short feed which will be gone within a few hours. I and fellow liveries have asked for fuller haynets at night as we were not happy with them standing in without access to forage - this has not been done so I have started to supplement this with hay I buy myself. He is a poor doer.

With regards to communication, I do, but TBH I feel like I am chasing my tail and becoming increasingly frustrated.

Hence why I am taking him elsewhere. I know I should have done it long ago. This move is also due to house purchase too but god forbid if it fell through I have another yard in mind where he will go.

 

[Maesfen]

The point I'm trying to make is that although both sides here are in the wrong somewhat, they aren't communicating to each other therefore the ground rules aren't laid out and the horse suffers for it. There is NOTHING worse than a behind your back moaning livery, who will slag you off to all and sundry but never address the problem or causes of it head on to any of the yard staff or yard manager. Yes it's not your "job" to show staff how to use something but if in horses everyone just did a set "job" nothing would ever be done and no one would ever learn. People who work with horses tend to "want" to work with them, its not an office job its a way of life and a passion, so the majority of the time they are keen to learn, esp the inexperienced ones. Yes, the inexperienced staff do drive you mad, but unless you explain to them at some point how will they ever learn?
Re. your horse not having any hay then tell the staff! if you have a problem with it or he pigs it all down quickly then maybe suggest he has a small haylege net of hay left hanging in his stable for when he comes in so he is less fractious and has something to focus on.

I'm sorry but what a load of piffle.
It is the YM/YO's job to train the staff, end of story.
It is their job to assess each horse their staff are expected to deal with and to place those staff accordingly.
If their staff can't handle the horse safely then it wouldn't hurt them to handle it themselves, after all, they are happy enough to take the clients money, if they can't fulfil the basic needs of the horse then they should say so and then the client could make arrangements to move ASAP if they have any sense.
It's not unfair to say that it's also their job to handle horses that their staff are not experienced to handle themselves if they accept that horse as a livery.
It is not a livery clients job to tell them to feed the horse, that should be an automatic response from what you hope to be an experienced YM who has a proper understanding of safe stable management and has a proper routine.
Anything less than those basics and the YM/YO is in the wrong job as they clearly have no clue about the responsibility for other peoples horses that goes with the job.

 

[ossy]

I think it just as well you are moving yards as it dosn't sound you are suited with this yard at all.
I agree with others regarding the fact if you have told the staff he can be a pain to turn out, leave a chiffney for them to use then I would use it and I would advise the staff to use it as if they weren't using it and something happens then I as the YO will firsty be liable for my staff injuries ( as in any office) and then the YO will come to you, for removing a piece of equipment that you have told them may be needed. The YO shoud have trained the less experienced staff how to use the Chiffeny before any of them handled your horse, which should have included the need to remove it as soon as the hrose is back in its stable I agree with you on that one. As you have already told the staff he can misbehave going to the field they may feel their is no need to keep telling you everytime he's been misbehaving.
As for the hay if that is not suitable for your horse then tell them, leave a little haynet outside for them to hang up if you on DIY. Theres a horse at our yard in hard compiition work who only gets a very small bit of hay in a little hay bag when he comes in so its not that uncommon for the horses not to get loads of hay once they are in.

I do not agree with some of the comments made above either "it is not your resonsibility to tell a YO to feed your horse" It is if you are on DIY on want your horse to have a haynet put int for you when th ehorse is brought in, and even our Full livery clients have a say in how much, when and how the hay is feed, all horses are indiviuals and if the compitition horse at your yard just got fed the hay in the same routine as say an under weight arab we have then the owner wouldn't be happy. I sit down with a new livery and dicuss the yards routine and what their individual requirements are and how they can be fitted into the yard routine. Again if these changed then I would expect the livery owner to tell me or if I notice soemthing has changed I will say to the livery yard owner that I want to may theses changes because...